Downtown Master Plan & Urban Code

[spartanburgh]

LEED is not a bad standard to achieve quality buildings, but this code kills all buildings over 8-possibly 10 stories with a rediculious requirement. I still say an incentive for all LEED buildings (such as an incrimental tax credit) would be better regardless of height.

LEED silver gets you a 2% Property tax credit, LEED Gold gets you a 4 % property tax credit and LEED Platinum gets you 8% Property tax credit or something similar to this. This reward for LEED should make for more quality developments, but not eliminate the possibility of tall buildings. I think we all want quality buildings regardless of height and this code misses the opportunity to achieve that.

[Spartan]

It has been pointed out that with the art donation you get to 10 stories with no LEED requirements. The art donation is a very reasonable thing to ask for a two storey bonus. I'd say make it a 4 storey bonus instead of 2 though.

I agree with your idea of a tax credit for LEED levels instead of a height bonues.

[spartanburgh]

I was reading in the Gville, forum about their frustration with large projects getting cancelled and I started to think of the same thing in Spartanburg and made a list of the ones that I can remember in the last 30 or so years I've been interested.

Spartan Square- 15 story hotel, two 7 storey office buildings, an ice rink, and a convention center all in the lated 70's by New South Development out of Charlotte. Died because it couldn't get financed.

Omni Hotel- The guy that does the embassy suites wanted to do this deal in the late 80's but I don't know why it died.

12 storey office tower at the corner of N. Church and St. John St. Norman Pulliam and others wanted to do this but it also died and I don't remember why.

Two 7 storey office buildings on E. Main St near Pine St., This never happened but the group out of Raleigh did do the 4 story Wachovia building at the corner of Pine and St. John when the larger project fell through.

6 story office building at Renaissance Park, Author Cleveland, enough said.

7 story condo in Renaissance Park, Many involved in this, bad location and lack of other developments.

The reason I wrote this here is most all of these projects would be much harder to do with the new urban code. It is hard enough to do these projects and have success, so why restrict them with additional financial burdens. I don't think this would happen in another city our size.

[Spartan]

To their credit, Spartan Square was sort of started, it just never finished. They razed all of the historic buildings between Dunbar and St John leaving a massive gap in the center of downtown up until a few years ago. Spartanburg's problem seems to be that in the past, plans were created but never completed.

How would it be harder to do with the Urban Code?

[travey]

I haven't heard any mention of the "master plan" lately. Does anyone know what the "dragging of feet" is about? The unveiling was over a year ago..... How much did they pay the firm to develop this plan?

[Spartan]

I know that its already being loosely followed, but that it has never been officially adopted, and its thus unenforceable. The last I heard they were revisiting a few areas that had concerns with regarding LEED, This was September of past year. I'm starting to get irritated at the notion that this will just be another wasted planning effort by the City of Spartanburg. I think that its time for the city to give us an update.

According to the City's website:

All Planning Commission Workshops have been cancelled to allow staff to review additional information requested by the Planning Commission. New dates and times will be posted to the website when they are available.

[spartanburgh]

The Writers of the Master Plan were paid $150,000 for their work. The City likely paid additional fees for the workshops etc. The final draft is good and I think reaffirmed a lot of what we already knew about Spartanburg. The LEED and Height restrictions are really bad. I sure hope someone with the ability to change these issues will do so. I mentioned them at a workshop, but was given the cold shoulder. I also spoke to some of the committee members who were against it, but apparently their opinions weren't enough to change anything.

[Spartan]

But those LEED-related height restrictions were the main point of contention with City Council, as I recall. Thats why this thing has still not been officially adopted.

[spartanburgh]

I sure hope they will change this part of the code. I also hope notice is given so that council members will be able to hear from those of us who have issues with this and tell them why its bad code. I'm all in favor of LEED, but its hard to believe professionals were paid this kind of money to not see the problem they are creating.

[Spartan]

The code itself if not bad. Its quite good actually. It uses form based design principles and will ultimately allow for more quality urban projects in Spartanburg. However, the issues seem to be centered around the LEED related section of that code. Form-based code is a good thing, and it would put Spartanburg on the map in terms of progressive policies, and hopefully in the long run for a high quality urban core.

I encourage all readers to read the code and decide for yourselves. IMO it allows developers more freedom because it does not rely on a parcel by parcel zoning process, and the extremely detailed rules and regulations associated with standard euclidean zoning.

The issues around the LEED restrictions seem to be that they are very restrictive in that you must do a lot to achieve certain height allowances. I think that these could easily be watered down such that we can still provide some LEED standards and improve environmental friendliness in Spartanburg, but not restrict the ability of developers to build what they want.

[Spartan]

Word on the street is that the Plan and Urban Code is alive and well. It might be up for adoption as soon as this summer.

[spartanburgh]

An update on the Master Plan was in the Spartanburg Journal. City Council should be presented the Master plan next Spring. It says that two major projects, the USC-Upstate School of Business and the Meridian Bank Building need to get out of the ground before implementing the code. Makes you wonder doesn't it? The major complanit so far is the height restriction according to the article. Projects like these are hard enough to finance without such tight restrictions and these two projects are going to get started to avoid the restrictions. I guess these will be the last two projects in Spartanburg before the door closes on these new code requirements and added expenses to developers. The only positive was Mayor Barnett said, the code may not be strictly enforced if a big player like Dell or Microsoft wanted to be in Downtown and brought significant jobs or something that would benefit the City.

I hope Council is smart enough to figure out the code has some problems and needs a little tweeking before adopting it.

[hub-city]

To me, if it is something that they are willing to amend or exempt, then it isn't worth placing in the plan to begin with. Are you talking about the height restrictions?

[Spartan]

That doesn't make sense. Why should those buildings get an exception to the rules? This is classic Spartanburg BS (not boiling springs) and a prime example of why the system doesn't work in this town. Basically, we are going to make the little guys come in and play by our rules, but if anyone important enough wants to come in, we'll bend over and take it where the sun don't shine? Thats crap.

If they don't like the height restriction then change it! If they don't like the LEED accommodations, then change it! Its OUR code, we can do what we want with it. There is absolutely no reason why this thing should be delayed AGAIN. Its been what, 1.5-2 years since they presented it to the public? Thats entirely too long. There is no reason to let these two buildings slip past our rules.

Jeez.

(PS: Thanks for posting that update, spartanburgh )

[spartanburgh]

Your right Spartan, the big guys can do what they want to and the little guys get screwed. Everyone should be treated the same, but not in Spartanburg. I could list several code violations in most of Johnson Developments buildings that some little guys tried to get equal treatment on and were turned down flat. The master plan code is basically good except for the back assward Leed requirement and the height restriction. The incentive should be positive for 95% of Spartanburgs buildings (those under 8 stories), not restrictive for those that are over 8 stories ( how many of these do you think we'll get). It's just stupid and completely backwards. Maybe that is why Spartanburg loves it so much. Many Green buildings could go up if the code were changed a little with positive incentive for shorter buildings, but the code chooses to deter developers in an area of lesser concern. Other than theses issues I think its basically good code if all would be treated the same. By next Spring maybe some other development will be on the table by some big shot and the code will be delayed another year or so?

[Sparkleman]

This is probably why downtown dogs is getting screwed in his pursuit for a cart downtown.

[spartanburgh]

Yeah!!! Hub City, the place for the little guys, like Downtown Dogs, to get "railroaded".

[Downtown Dogs]

Yeah!!! Hub City, the place for the little guys, like Downtown Dogs, to get "railroaded".

I wouldn't say I'm getting railroaded, per se, but I have encountered significant roadblocks. The biggest of which is the city's total resistance to the idea that street vending is a legitimate business activity. I think they have a protectionist mentality, specifically aimed at protecting their brick and mortar restaurants that took them so long to get into the downtown area. I can't really fault them for that because I clearly remember Spartanburg and Morgan Square when there was nothing there. Several officials I have talked to believe it's time for a rewrite of the municipal code dealing with open air retail sales, others are strongly against it.

At any rate, we will be at the Spartanburg International Festival this weekend representin' the US. Look for the hot dog cart under the tent and red/yellow Vienna Beef umbrellas and banners. We do authentic Chicago style franks and polish sausages, as well as more typical Southern fare with chili, slaw, etc. If you are unfamiliar with what a Chicago dog is, go to www.viennabeef.com or www.hotdogchicagostyle.com for a primer. Stop by and say hi if you get a chance.

[travey]

'Tis Spring and still waiting for the Master Plan Approval....

Everyone should be treated the same, but not in Spartanburg. I could list several code violations in most of Johnson Developments buildings that some little guys tried to get equal treatment on and were turned down flat

I wish you would List them here...... My friend is trying to make a project work downtown and FINDs it SO discouraging.... A List of THings Other Developers Got-Away with MAY be helpful to Many others. It is disheartening to realize that Only the privileged get to do projects in Downtown Spartanburg.... What about Freedom, Pursuit of Happiness, Justice? Local Boy Politics.... I guess a woman definetely wouldn't be GRanted an approval on a Developmental Project.

I also find it hiliarous that RJ Rockers is going to be given property tax incentives. They don't own the building.... Mr. George Dean Johnson does.. / RJ Rockers gets a 40,000 $$ grant as well. Amazing. So the city is giving $$$ to millionaires to improve their properties.....

[spartanburgh]

Some of the code violations I'm referring to are:

-Several of his new buildings have doorways that open directly onto the sidewalk with no barrier. The Janney Montgomery Scott building even placed the entire handicap ramp on the sidewalk with a set of steps where a tree is planted, leaving no room for a wheel chair to pass. This same building also took out the sidewalk on the other side of Libery St. for a handfull of parking spaces to accomodate this building which also includes an area where a trees are planted. This means that an entire street was reduced to the point that a wheel chair cannot go down either side of the street with out going on the mulch around the trees or on the street. The new Library condo building has the same condition on Broad St., A pedestrian could be walking down the street and have a full swing glass door slung right into their pathway with no barrier to make them go out of the door swing area. The white Oak Mannor building on East Main has the same situation and it happens to be where a tree is located so a wheel chair can't pass on the North side of Main St. without going into the street or into the mulch around the tree. Other developers were denied this encroachment or required to install barriers at doors, most were denied and the doors were required to be alcoved in etc.

-The condo building on Broad St. is built on a zero lot line which requires a 4 hour seperation. A Sprinkler system reduces this requirement to 3 hours. The West elevation is constructed with wood studs and 7/16 OSB coverd with a vapor barrier and EIFS. There is no UL rating that will give you 3 hours for this conditon.

-The storm water control for the Woodburn Rd. development is not adequate and has allowed multiple conditons to exist where sediment runs into the stream below and onto the street. Anyone else would have faced serious consiquences for this condition.

-The office buidings on E. Main St. are contiually blocking the street with little or no warning. Others are required to have flag men, construction ahead signs and traffic devices to route traffic around the construction, close the sidewalk or construct temporary pedestrian tunnels to protect the public.

-False balconies/canopy's and other encroachments onto the City/State/Federal right of ways are allowed without question, where as others are denied or required to extend considerable energies to chance approval.

I will list more later when I have time if this is not enough. I didn't list items on the interior because they can be hard for you to go and see for yourself.

[travey]

Wow, that was very informative. You know your stuff. Thanks for sharing. I'll try to check them out.

I think the streetscape on Ezell looks nice but didn't it basically create an outside area for a private business owner or company ( Maybe QS-1 owns it). Therefore, our money spent on something that will only benefit the property owner. I think it is to wide

and it took away parking in an already Tight area. No one has leased that building. Ezell street was changed and has a curve in it to accomodate the jutting out of the "streetscape" I prefer it be called "street-rape"

[Spartan]

Interesting stuff, spartanburgh.

travey, I don't understand your complaint about Ezell St. Creating a slightly better pedestrians space and allowing outdoor seating on an otherwise drab, run-down street seems like a good thing to me. Can you elaborate on your disdain?

[sparkinlady]

I'm not 100% positive on this, but I believe QS1 paid for the cost of the Ezell Street improvements, even though they won't be occupying those storefronts with the patios that you mention. I'm pretty sure they gave the City the funds to construct all of that.

I see Travey's point though - I imagine Sonny's had to foot their own bill for building that really nice brick patio that they have - so it could be seen as a little unfair for the City to build that for someone else.

BUT, in this particular situation, Sonny's will benefit from those back patios, QS1 employees will benefit from (what I assume will become) more dining choices, and the rest of the downtown citizens/visitors will benefit from a GREATLY improved streetscape and outdoor eating option.

[travey]

My disdain is that I believe this is a waste of taxpayer money. There aren't many pedestrians there. Outdoor seating.. for whom? There aren't any restuarants there. THey messed up the flow of that street and took away the slanted parking and replaced it with parallel parking, thus eliminating 5 parking spaces. THe people who have owned the lawyer's office for years have to park across the street at the old Salvation Army... I don't know where they will park when RJ ROckers takes over. Parking is very limited in that area. Even SOnny's employees have to park in the Salvation Army lot now.

All of this for pretend pedestrians "on a run down street' and outdoor seating for a pretend restuarant. However we can't pretend we paid our property taxes. Does it benefit the majority of the citizens of SpartaNBURG? No. I think this streetscape is highly premature.

Look at the city budget and you will find more suprising expenditures. http://www.cityofspartanburg.org/City_Gove.../FY_Budget.html

Look under CIP for capital improvement plan... which is a 5 year plan of allocation with funding provided from numerous sources. A lot does come from hospitality tax (YOu and I). Hub City writers project will get over $500,000 ... now that is a lot of books. Hampton Heights got 100,OOO $$ for street lights.

[travey]

I'm not 100% positive on this, but I believe QS1 paid for the cost of the Ezell Street improvements, even though they won't be occupying those storefronts with the patios that you mention. I'm pretty sure they gave the City the funds to construct all of that.

Sparkinlady... I got the notion that the city paid for it a city council meeting when the gave the report on capital improvments.... "Ezell St. completed" I could be wrong. I searched the budget...I also couldn't find a budget listing for the Hub City Art Park.