Downtown Master Plan & Urban Code

[hub-city]

I believe you couldn't find a budget for the art park, because it was paid for with private donations.

As far as Ezell street goes... Thsi was a street that I would have never in the past driven down or gace a second thought to. now, I drive by every couple of weeks, and look forward to hopefully one day enjoying a meal on the deck.

[Spartan]

My disdain is that I believe this is a waste of taxpayer money. There aren't many pedestrians there. Outdoor seating.. for whom? There aren't any restuarants there. THey messed up the flow of that street and took away the slanted parking and replaced it with parallel parking, thus eliminating 5 parking spaces. THe people who have owned the lawyer's office for years have to park across the street at the old Salvation Army... I don't know where they will park when RJ ROckers takes over. Parking is very limited in that area. Even SOnny's employees have to park in the Salvation Army lot now.

All of this for pretend pedestrians "on a run down street' and outdoor seating for a pretend restuarant. However we can't pretend we paid our property taxes. Does it benefit the majority of the citizens of SpartaNBURG? No. I think this streetscape is highly premature.

Look at the city budget and you will find more suprising expenditures. http://www.cityofspartanburg.org/City_Gove.../FY_Budget.html

Look under CIP for capital improvement plan... which is a 5 year plan of allocation with funding provided from numerous sources. A lot does come from hospitality tax (YOu and I). Hub City writers project will get over $500,000 ... now that is a lot of books. Hampton Heights got 100,OOO $$ for street lights.

Dude, are you for real? The lawyers have to park across the street? Boo freakin hoo man. Its like 100 extra feet. People in this city fascinate me. They will park 10 miles away from the doors of Walmart, but ask them to park a block away from their destination downtown and its like the world is ending. There is a city lot across from Sonnys, there's parking on Magnolia, there's parking at the Courthouse, parking on Morgan Square, Parking behind Carriage House Wines... I can go on. The city will be better off for not having those 5 parking spaces. You make it sound as if there is some sort of parking shortage in downtown.

The flow of a street for one block? Seriously? The entire street is three blocks long! Are you really that upset about a 4 foot jog in the street? Does it really inconvenience you that much to slow down and turn the steering wheel slightly?

You know that people like me, who visit from out of town, also pay for those hospitality taxes, right? Whats your problem with street lights and parks? I'm having a very hard time following your logic here. These things make our community stronger. It takes a lot of little things to get to the big picture. As I always say, planning for pedestrians is paramount in order for downtown to succeed. The only thing that concerns me here is the lack of sidewalks in front of the two remaining buildings.

There were plans for two restaurants in those buildings. One was an oyster bar, the other was a sports bar of some sort. Seems like I recall talk of a jazz club at one point too. There was interested in that location BEFORE the streetscape. There is definitely interest in that location, and the addition of outdoor seating and pedestrian features is key to making something happen. The economy being what it is, it may be a while longer before something actually happens, but it will.

[Sparkleman]

If there is in fact 100K in the budget for streetlights in Hampton Heights, whoever put it in there needs to be strung up. This sounds like something that would be in District 7 budget. There's no need for nice ornate lights. In fact, unless I am wrong there should be existing lights there. Jeez, this city can really waste some dough.

[Spartan]

I don't understand what the problem is with pedestrian lights, or why District 7 should have to pay for them.

[spartanburgh]

I don't know who paid for the improvements on Ezell St. but I think they did a good job. I am more concerned with potential pedestrians and opportunities for new restaraunts than cars. When Rockers gets going I think what they did could make for a great opportunity to create a cluster of activity in that area. I only wish they would have burried those #@*% powerlines.

[Sparkleman]

The D7 reference is just a joke (read goupstate.com on how D7 waste $$$). Still 100K to HH is a joke! Line me up as a BB supplier to those lights!! LOL!!

[Spartan]

$100k is about right for lighting. Duke charges a lot of money for decorative lighting like that. Is it worth it? IMO they make the neighborhood look better and feel safer. Over time, incremental improvement like this all over town will make Spartanburg look better as a whole.

[sparkinlady]

I agree with Spartan. I don't understand your beef with pedestrian lighting. that is a BASIC city service. streets are part of the transportation system. lights are part of the system too. HH is a City-designated historic district (hence a concern for the look of the lighting) AND an area that struggles with some elements of crime and loitering (which more lighting and more well-meaning citizens out-on-the-street can help address). Plus - the more people that walk in this city, the better off we ALL are. the least that the city can do is provide a safer, more appealing option for walking in the most urban, most downtown, most accessible neighborhood that they have.

[travey]

I agree with Spartan. I don't understand your beef with pedestrian lighting. that is a BASIC city service.

I didn't say I had a 'beef' with the lighting. I just simply mentioned some things I found in the budget. However, I think for that price they should have explored a sustainable solar light...

These are basic city services, true but still paid by us. I understand the city backing HH. However, I'm sure there are crime-infested areas that can't get a non-historic light.

My true beef is that the city officials pick special interest groups and individuals whom they deem worthy of taxpayer $$$. If you aren't in the clique, your ideas or plans for development are deemed unworthy= no chance at assistance. I don't like the poltics. Ain't that America? How can we expect Washington to change when our small towns are plagued by the same old same old.

[travey]

There is a city lot across from Sonnys,

Spartan.... since you don't live here maybe you don't know everything. THat lot is not owned by the city but by QS-1. It was an incentive to get them to locate downtown. They have a parking agreement with SOnny's (I assume) and about 10 spaces are available during 8-5. I presume they save them for customers.

In the specific (Ezell St.) area there is a crunch during 8-5. Do you want to walk two blocks to your office in the rain? I could but I'm addressing the mindset of the general public. Do you think building an outside dining area for a pretend restuarant is going to change their fear of walking? Fear of being panhandled, or mugged ? Again, I'm speaking about the general public?

Let's say a restuarant does come and they want to serve lunch. Great for the people who work downtown and could walk but what about people who have an hour lunch? Do you think they will have time to park in the garage, walk, eat, return walk, drive back to another side of town in an hour? Not likely.

[Spartan]

There is a city lot across from Sonnys,

Spartan.... since you don't live here maybe you don't know everything. THat lot is not owned by the city but by QS-1. It was an incentive to get them to locate downtown. They have a parking agreement with SOnny's (I assume) and about 10 spaces are available during 8-5. I presume they save them for customers.

In the specific (Ezell St.) area there is a crunch during 8-5. Do you want to walk two blocks to your office in the rain? I could but I'm addressing the mindset of the general public. Do you think building an outside dining area for a pretend restuarant is going to change their fear of walking? Fear of being panhandled, or mugged ? Again, I'm speaking about the general public?

Let's say a restuarant does come and they want to serve lunch. Great for the people who work downtown and could walk but what about people who have an hour lunch? Do you think they will have time to park in the garage, walk, eat, return walk, drive back to another side of town in an hour? Not likely.

I walk or bike 2 miles every day, rain or shine. Thousands of people here in Charlotte walk at least 4 blocks every day, if not more. They make these cool things that keep you dry called umbrellas, and if you're hard core they have rain jackets. I assure you that it the people in this town can do it, then the people in Spartanburg can do it to.

If people started walking two blocks to work every day, they'd 1) start getting some exercise and 2)realize that its perfectly safe. You're more likely to get mugged during the two-block-equivalent walk to the entrance of Walmart.

As for the restaurant on Ezell St, if people in Spartanburg can't walk two blocks to work or to restaurants, just like they do at Walmart, then this city is doomed for failure as an urban center. We need only look one county to the west to see how success can be achieved. Parking, IMO, is the least of our concerns. If the restaurants are good enough the two block walk will be worth it.

[travey]

Save your rant for the general public. If you think they are here you are mistaken. They are at Wal-Mart. You have valid points.

I have lived in several foriegn countries and loved the walk-ablilty, train-ability, and bus-ablity. However, here we are sold the Car. It defines most citizens. Yes, I know about NYC and other exceptions. This is how the suburbs became SO popular. We could drive there.

Let's just take the notion of walking too work. Funny. Two to three miles? First, people would think you are crazy. That you have a DUI. If you are a woman you may be taken for a streetwalker especially if you must dress nice for work. Most work places are near highways. Difficult to get there via foot.

Charlotte is a much different place than here... Maybe that is why you live there.

if people in Spartanburg can't walk two blocks to work or to restaurants, just like they do at Walmart, then this city is doomed for failure as an urban center .

Unfortunately, this may just happen. Remember you have to change the way people think and their habits. Muy difficil. And at this point there isn't much to have a walk-about about. One could walk the trail of $10-$30 meal restuarants, or have a drink, or buy some toys, or high-priced clothing... Did I leave something out? Oh enjoy the free statues and charm of the city.

[hub-city]

I've made a few post in this section, but I have been reading and following along and if there is any "ranting" going on, it is not really coming from Spartan, so I think you're first statement in the last post travey was unjustified. While I also know that Spartan doesn't live here, I have yet to find anyone else on this board with the knowledge, compassion, and a genuine "love" for spartanburg as he. OK, enough defending Spartan....he's a big boy and can take care of himself.

I, for one, am excited to have QS1 downtown, excited to have RJ Rockers coming back downtown, excited to see something happening on a street that was really just an alley before. As far as walking, I work near the Denny's tower and love to walk to Sonny's, Justin's, Monsoon, plus the several other restaurants downtown. I usually stop off by Imaginatin Station and get a little something for my daughter, or do some window shopping for my wife. As I mentioned before, I hope to be able to walk to a new restaurant on Ezell someday.

I remember when everyone screamed at the notion of losing some parking due to the Morgan Square makeover. Now, it is one of the most photographed areas of the city and has served as a catylist for development and foot traffic along the area. (Although I still think that the Extended Stay building would have helped matters if they had put some retail on the first floor and allowed people to enter the square through their building from the Magnolia garage).

What's my point? Well...mindsets (including mine) are slowly changing and we have to band together through any means possible to continue to strive to make our cities viable places to live and work. That's what this board to me is all about.

PS I haven't been to a Wal Mart in over a year.

[Sparkleman]

+1 to Hub City for that post.

I am not going to pile on travey or Spartan for that matter as we have sparred and agreed many times on many things in the past. Both are right about certain things. Spartanburg is not like Charlotte and NEVER will be and it probably won't be like Greenville anytime soon. I can feel sentiment for downtown slowly changing to be more positive but it is a very delicate movement and unfortunately only about 15-20% of the city feels like participating. The rest are travey correctly points out want to hang out at Wal-Mart, Golden Corral, the mall and other places in the like. Some of that is economic related, some is that is how they were brought up, and some just don't care to venture downtown. The people that don't mind walking downtown are already downtown. As Spartan has pointed out in the past, a good way to increase traffic downtown is to get more white collar jobs down here. If you can't lure new businesses, try to get existing ones to move like QS-1 did. The former Lockwood Greene (now CH2M Hill) engineering firm would be a huge hit if they would move, but its gonna take something like that to help increase traffic. I work on the west side and very rarely venture downtown for lunch because as travey points out, there's just not enough time to do it all.

I do take a little exception to Hub City's post that no one else loves the "SC" as much as Spartan. I feel I love it as much and am as compassionate, but I am also very realistic having been here my whole life and seen the many failures this place has produced. Being a fan of the "SC" is much like being a Chicago Cubs fan. You love them to death, but know failure is always just around the corner.

[Spartan]

Save your rant for the general public. If you think they are here you are mistaken. They are at Wal-Mart. You have valid points.

I have lived in several foriegn countries and loved the walk-ablilty, train-ability, and bus-ablity. However, here we are sold the Car. It defines most citizens. Yes, I know about NYC and other exceptions. This is how the suburbs became SO popular. We could drive there.

Let's just take the notion of walking too work. Funny. Two to three miles? First, people would think you are crazy. That you have a DUI. If you are a woman you may be taken for a streetwalker especially if you must dress nice for work. Most work places are near highways. Difficult to get there via foot.

Charlotte is a much different place than here... Maybe that is why you live there.

if people in Spartanburg can't walk two blocks to work or to restaurants, just like they do at Walmart, then this city is doomed for failure as an urban center.

Unfortunately, this may just happen. Remember you have to change the way people think and their habits. Muy difficil. And at this point there isn't much to have a walk-about about. One could walk the trail of $10-$30 meal restuarants, or have a drink, or buy some toys, or high-priced clothing... Did I leave something out? Oh enjoy the free statues and charm of the city.

You're mixing up a lot of concepts here, mainly that suburbia needs to be transplanted to the city in order for it to succeed. They tried that concept in the 60s and it failed miserably (remember the Main St Mall, yikes!). Lets also keep in mind that this whole discussion came about because you seem pretty sure that the loss of five parking spaces on Ezell Street would ruin the lives of a couple of lawyers.

You are right in that the mindset of Spartanburg has to be changed. People have to be shown that its safe, comfortable, and convenient to travel via foot or bike. Spartanburg won't fail as an urban center. As this town changes and grows and downtown becomes a larger destination for everybody, you'll see the mindset change. I've already noticed it. Everytime I come home now, my friends and I get together downtown, and very rarely anywhere else unless its a mexican restaurant. When I lived in Spartanburg (before they renovated the Square), this never happened.

Think of walking to work as you would driving to work. When you drive to work, you think about how far it and how long it takes for you to get there, right? Most people do. Walking is no different. It takes me about 25 minutes to walk to work, which is about the same amount of time as the average suburban commute in Spartanburg (and significantly less than the average commute in Charlotte). It takes about 15 to bike. The best part is that I get my exercise in for the day while commuting, so I have more time to do what I want when I get home. I chose to live in a location proximate to my office for those reasons. I admit that the other draws of uptown Charlotte influenced the decision too, as did other factors. I can, however, assure you that if I could move back to Spartanburg I would do it in a heartbeat. Maybe I will if the right job comes along. Anyway, like I said in my previous post, thousands of men and women walk all over Charlotte despite the vagrants. Its accepted here, and if the yuppies in this town can do it, then believe me, anyone can.

As far as the locations of housing and work, your are right. And if you read my posts in other threads, I consistently talk about how Spartanburg needs to attract a higher concentration of both offices and housing in and around downtown. People WILL walk when there is something worth walking to, and they will WANT to walk if the built environment is designed in a safe, comfortable, and convenient manner (this is true even in suburbia). When you mix office and residential land uses, the restaurants and retail and other items will come along.

One thing I have made a specific point NEVER to do is compare Spartanburg to Charlotte. I have used my experiences here to illustrate points, but I've never suggested that Spartanburg needs to be Charlotte. Of course, having said that, there are many concepts that Charlotte uses every day that would greatly benefit Spartanburg as far as planning and urban design go.

Another thing that I've never done is assumed that this lifestyle is for everyone. There is always going to be a segment of the population that wants to live in suburbia. However, does that mean that we should not allow the opportunity for people to live and work in an urban environment? The best cities are those that have housing options, and right now Spartanburg's are very limited.

I do take a little exception to Hub City's post that no one else loves the "SC" as much as Spartan.

I think that anyone who takes the time to read or post in this forum on a regular basis is just as passionate about Spartanburg as you or me.

[sparkinlady]

I can, however, assure you that if I could move back to Spartanburg I would do it in a heartbeat. Maybe I will if the right job comes along.

I hear the City Manager position just opened up! Come back to the burg!

[roads-scholar]

Spartan for city manager!

[Spartan]

Lol, thanks guys, but I don't have enough experience for that job just yet. Maybe someday.

[travey]

" Lets also keep in mind that this whole discussion came about because you seem pretty sure that the loss of five parking spaces on Ezell Street would ruin the lives of a couple of lawyers.

No. That is what you choose to discuss. I said that area has a parking problem during the hours of 8-5. Dude, we are on the same page for the most part. However, the county of 250,000, for whom Spartanburg is the hub and county seat, aren't. Combine that mindset with the city officials who limit development and we have hurdles. That was my whole point. I'd love for downtwon to be rock-n-rolling....

[Spartan]

You did point out the parking problem, but if its really that bad, then five spaces won't make a difference. Since the parking is already gone, What are some alternatives? IMO, Daniel Morgan Ave does not need 4 lanes for traffic, so why not convert the outside lanes to parallel parking? That would get you at least 30 parking spots along the street between Main St and St John St. That could also leave room for more street trees.

Nobody here can speak for all 280,000 Spartanburg County residents. Fortunately the city only has to answer to the 38,000 or so within its limits. From my experience at the Downtown Master Plan charettes, there are more people in Spartanburg who think like we do than most people think. I think people want more than you give them credit for. As for the politicians, well, that's another story.

[hub-city]

I like the idea of adding parking to Daniel Morgan Ave. Actually, it is in the yet to be adopted "master plan" to add bike lanes both ways and add parallel parking and wider sidewalks. I'm more in favor of angled parking myself, but anything would help.

[spartanburgh]

The Master Plan Advisory commitee will meet April 21, 11:30- 1pm to discuss the urban code. The planning commission has reviewed the code sections in detail and is ready to move to public hearings. I think we all need to air our opinions at the public hearings and send letters to the council members if have issues. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Spartan]

I hope that those of you who can attend will go to the meetings and voice your support. Its even more important for people who live or work within the city limits. Unfortunately for myself it will be nearly impossible to get back to Spartanburg during the week.

Thanks for this update, spartanburgh. I'm glad to FINALLY see something happen with this.

[spartanburgh]

The Master Plan has been updated. The only major change is to the height requirement. Now the tallest buildings in Spartanburg are limited to just 6 stories, unless you go through the LEED program. A local architect said you are effectively killing the possibility of another building that is tall. You can get 3 stories for a silver or gold LEED design, but for more than 9 stories you must go platinum, which is "damned near impossible to meet". I really don't like this part of the code and will likely not support it with this reqirement in effect.

[Spartan]

Thanks for the update. I really expected that part of it to go away entirely. This code, if adopted, will change Spartanburg forever. The height requirements are a really progressive concept. I was beginning to think that Spartanburg would never demand quality urban development.

I think if you look at it objectively, you can come to several conclusions:

1. Spartanburg is not a skyscraper city. We only have two buildings that meet the generally accepted skyscraper definition (Denny's Tower and the Montgomery Building). Point being, what is the height limit going to impact?
   
2. Other cities with height limits- most notably Charleston and DC- are great cities despite similar restrictions. Height limits have the effect of spreading out development
   
3. If someone does want to build a skyscraper, it will be a very high quality building, and hopefully that will translate to better architecture.
   
4. There's a chance that it could push office development in to suburban locations