Downtown Master Plan & Urban Code

[spartanburgh]

I don't know why they don't just do a simpler more reasonable LEED incentive. All buildings in the plan area that meet LEED silver, gold and platinum will have 10,15 and 20% of the incremental property taxes availabe to fund community improvement in the DT area (bury power lines, build better crosswalks, bike lanes, art etc.). Your right Spartan we don't have many high rises, but I don't really consider a 7 story building a high rise. I think it will make for a boaring city to not have height diversity and it will look make it look more like an office park with all the buildings essentially the same height. With land scarce for developers downtown I can see a Lockwood Greene type deciding to locate downtown and need 100,000 sq ft with the land available requiring them to possibly have to build a platinum LEED building that is as the architect said is "Damn near impossible to do". Why go to such a high standard? Why not give an incentive to all who go LEED and get a real benefit from the 99.99% of all buildings that ever have or will be built?

[Spartan]

If a company like that really wanted to come downtown, they wouldn't let that get in the way. I don't believe that its impossible to do, since people are doing it across the country. If indeed it is hard to do, then perhaps they will build two or three LEED gold or silver buildings. This would get the same result with more buildings to expand the urban environment.

[spartanburgh]

I have to agree with the architect and the developer. The list you refer to, consist of 76 buildings in the U.S. and abroad, which most are government or institutional and have little to no financial restraint. I think the developer would simply go to Westgate and be nearer the Interstates, airport, shopping and a much greater choice of restaraunts or simply do as Steadman Hawkins and Progress lighting did and go to Greenville. The codes intent is for a more dense downtown, so why does it essentially eliminate the type building that gets you the greatest density? I think we will never agree on this point, but I do like "most" of the rest of the code.

[Spartan]

I'm fine to agree to disagree, but there's nothing wrong with debating the merits of each view point .

I think that Spartanburg will achieve more density faster by spreading it around with more shorter buildings like DC or Charleston than waiting on skyscrapers to come. Even here in Charlotte, it's a dense cluster of skyscrapers, but all and all, uptown is not 'that' dense.

[spartanburgh]

The code doesn't say you have to do tall buildings and the likelyhood of more than one or two being built is slim, but the possibility gives opportunities that shouldn't be essentially eliminated by code. A developer could do the shorter more spread out buildings anyway, the code doesn't prevent that. I just think its a shame that it would virtually eliminate a possibility that should remain. In other news the next hurdle for the master plan is the presentation to the property owners. The Plan designers said this would be a much tougher hurdle to get over, because your going to restrict properties more and its likely not going to be a warm reception? We'll see what happens in this next step.

[Spartan]

Yeah, it probably will get axed pretty hard from the property owners, since we're talking about changing the zoning laws around to make it work. IMO, they will want the LEED issues that we've been discussing changed. That said, they have been a part of the master planning process since day one, have they not? The city held a week long workshop and had several public meetings about it. Surely they are aware of what is being proposed.

One thing I'll throw out there, is that I am not even remotely familiar with the current CBD zoning in Spartanburg, so I don't fully understand what is being "changed" though I do understand what it is that we want to change to (if that makes sense). Obviously there are more restrictions, but to me its changing how the restrictions work. Its controlling form slightly more than function. I don't know if the residents and business owners downtown care about that or not. I guess we'll see. Do you chance know when they will meet with the property owners?

[spartanburgh]

I don't know when they will meet, but I assumed it would be soon, possibly in May. The long delay last time was, waiting for "The George" to get started so it and Bank Merridian could avoid the new code. I guess Bank Merridian may get grandfathered if it ever happens. This is a little of what I'm talking about, if these two projects need to get around the code, then maybe its a little to restrictive in some ways. Bank Merridian was going to be 8 stories, it was a bubble project without going LEED, now it may not be a project at all if not grandfathered or it may have to be a shorter building with no more land available on their site (which will require it to be LEED certified). For example purposes only!!!

[Spartan]

I fully expect that it was delayed so that GDJ could start his project unimpeded with new processes, since he basically runs this city. But lets not pretend like he doesn't have enough money to do a LEED Platinum building

[roads-scholar]

I don't know when they will meet, but I assumed it would be soon, possibly in May. The long delay last time was, waiting for "The George" to get started so it and Bank Merridian could avoid the new code. I guess Bank Merridian may get grandfathered if it ever happens. This is a little of what I'm talking about, if these two projects need to get around the code, then maybe its a little to restrictive in some ways. Bank Merridian was going to be 8 stories, it was a bubble project without going LEED, now it may not be a project at all if not grandfathered or it may have to be a shorter building with no more land available on their site (which will require it to be LEED certified). For example purposes only!!!

I've heard rumors of the Meridian building. Can you offer up any more details?

[spartanburgh]

The building is called the "Bank Merridian Building" because they are scheduled to be the major tenant, but not the building owner. It will be for multiple tenants and is being developed by a local group of developers. They have aquired all the land at the corner of N. Church St. and St. John St. where HBJ, Hub City Coffee and the old gas station site used to be. The origional hold up was the discovery of burried tanks at the old gas station site, but I suppose the economy has slowed the development now. Demolition crews were mobilized to the site last fall to tear down the buildings there, but were removed when the tanks were discovered to allow for environmental clean up. Renderings haven't been made public, but its a Prime corner that should demand a quality building.

[Spartan]

Thanks for that info, spartanburgh. Hopefully since its local developers, they will throw a little more quality into the design.

[travey]

So do you think it will be adopted??? I am more interested in the boundaries of the CBD being pushed out. Anyone know if this part is still in the plan. I attended those charettes and the unveiling of DA PLan but........ Still nothing.

[spartanburgh]

The Master Plan only effects the downtown area or about 940 acres. It is teired so that the immediate downtown area is called DT-6 (the most restricted and hopefully dense development), next is DT 5 which is about 2 blocks from ground zero, and then DT 4, the least dense( about 4-6 blocks from ground zero. If you are outside the downtown area you can still do whatever you want as long as it meets the old code. This area is basically from Pine ST. to around Wakefield Buick and from the Post Office to the Spartanburg Memorial Auditorium. And I do think some version will be adopted If George Dean doesn't give it the ax.

[Spartan]

I think that the area that the urban code would apply to is larger than the existing CBD zoning....

Ok, the Urban Code is posted online, and I have some clarification on the height restriciton. Here's the scoop: There are several zoning districts within the urban code- DT4, DT5, and DT6. Each of these is based on the urban transcet concept which you can read more about in the Code itself. To see the code, look at this link.

Here's the map:

[Spartan]

I don't know if it's just Herald-Journal spin, but the way I read this, it sounds like the business owners in downtown area generally receptive to the Urban Code. Obviously there are a few complaints. I like the reference to Lexington, VA. I've never been there, but I've read a lot about it. They have a great thing going on there, in large part due to their code.

Article

[Spartan]

I hope that this meeting with property owners is a good sign. It sounds as though it went fairly well, and aside from a few minor issues, people were generally pleased with the code. The main issue seems to be the mandatory conversion of any vacant building to retail. I can see where that would be a bit unsettling.

The other issue is that they want to create what sounds like an board for architectural view (they call it a 'design review board'). This is in part so that they can have variances, but if done correctly, this board could be a good thing for Spartanburg.

HJ Article

[travey]

I hope that this meeting with property owners is a good sign. It sounds as though it went fairly well, and aside from a few minor issues, people were generally pleased with the code. The main issue seems to be the mandatory conversion of any vacant building to retail. I can see where that would be a bit unsettling.

The other issue is that they want to create what sounds like an board for architectural view (they call it a 'design review board'). This is in part so that they can have variances, but if done correctly, this board could be a good thing for Spartanburg.

HJ Article

I predict that the Master Plan will never be approved. I asked Stephanie Monroe(Planning Director.. I think is her title) Thursday when it is going to pass.... in six months or a year.... They have been saying that for 2.5 years already. I agree with others that when the 'boys' on the list get their projects done or all the land they want bought,then it will pass.

It is just a big ole game of Monopoly. One day I'll tell you the story I know about how small property owners get pushed around especially if a big Fish wants their land... THe city assists. Sure they cite codes and ordinances but it is all pressure aimed at caving in the small guy.

I feel that our downtown area has become the new "control zone' . Like the textile mill owners used to contol society..... Now it is the downtown land developers.... they plan behind closed doors and put their puzzle together. If your idea for development does not fit into THEIR vision then it will not be approved. THe city always gives them money to defer cost, even if it is only 10%. Sure the downtown area looks good but is it good as a county seat for 275,000 people. We want tourism... to be a charming ,quaint, southern city. YEt our city stifles creative development. We can't even have a coffee house to stick around longer than a year.

Name something out of the ordinary that is a downtown business.......

I will spill the beans about my lil guy vs. city darlings at a later date. As the lil guy is in negotiations.

PS I don't want to hear about hub-bub. That is tax-supported Art. An NPO that gets it's money from taxpayers via the hospitality tax. THey sponsor mostly out of town art and music.... THey throw in something local on occassion.

[Spartan]

I don't claim to know what is going on at the City, but I do know that plans, even well written ones, can get delayed for hundreds of reasons. Maybe it is just good ol' boy politics, but then again, maybe it's a legitimate reason.

[spartanburgh]

The Downtown Master Plan is scheduled to be presented to City Council at the December 15th meeting for 1st reading and approval. Plans are to have the second and final reading in mid January. The code would take effect in January. I really like most of the code, but I am still highly dissapointed that the height limits are now 6 stories and only 6 stories in a mostly built out small section of downtown. Unless you build a LEED building(9stories possible) or have residential above, you are limited to 4 stories in most of downtown and 6 stories in a very small area that is mostly built out. If you build more than 9 stories, you have to build a platinum LEED building and thats never going to happen in Spartanburg. I went to the LEED website and looked up Platinum LEED buildings and there are 76 in the world. Most are government or institutional and none were listed that consisted of a business that was for profit. I have talked to one council member about this to little avail. I just don't get this part of the code. If a company builds a 10 story office building, spending tens of millions of dollars to construct, paying hundreds of thousands of dollars in property taxes and created hundreds of jobs, why saddle them with an unreasonable request. The balance of the code would provide a great building. The final kick in the pants is that the buildings certificate of occupance would then be held until the LEED certification was approved, which can take several months after the building is finished. I don't want Spartanburg to look like a monolithic office park.

[krazeeboi]

A 10-story building isn't very tall to begin with, so I don't understand the LEED-platinum requirement. Why not just the lowest level of LEED certification?

[Spartan]

WOW. I can't believe they are actually going to vote on it.

As much as I'd like to see Spartanburg with a few more highrises, think abuot all of the great cities out there that don't have them: Charleston and DC come to mind. Greenville doesn't have many, and though they may get more, it's not the "skyline" that is the draw to that place. The "small town" character that people love about Spartanburg will be maintained in perpetuity, though the built environment will be improved for the better. I think this is a great step for Spartanburg.

[krazeeboi]

But a 10-story building isn't a highrise; it's a solid midrise and that's a pretty feasible height for any new "large" office projects that Spartanburg will get in the future. Charleston really isn't the best example here since downtown isn't really the office center of the region; they've pretty much ceded that to North Charleston. And DC is chock full of 12-story buildings which pretty much wouldn't get built under these guidelines. I think you'd want to combine the best of both worlds here: creating a strong business district in the core as well as a great urban space. It doesn't have to be an either/or proposition, and it's possible that such stringent guidelines on office developers could force them to build outside of downtown in the future which would effectively defeat the purpose of the urban code to begin with. I think a newer downtown like Silver Spring, MD or Bethesda, MD should be a model for downtown Spartanburg as it regards the new urban code.

[Spartan]

Your point is well taken, however, 1) 10 stories is huge in Spartanburg, and 2) Spartanburg is not likely to get very many 10 storey or higher buildings anyway, so this will ensure that the smaller-scale buildings will be of high quality. Besides, lets not pretend like the city won't bend over backwards to a company that is interested in building something taller.

[krazeeboi]

Your point is well taken, however, 1) 10 stories is huge in Spartanburg, and 2) Spartanburg is not likely to get very many 10 storey or higher buildings anyway, so this will ensure that the smaller-scale buildings will be of high quality. Besides, lets not pretend like the city won't bend over backwards to a company that is interested in building something taller.

True, I don't foresee Spartanburg getting many 10-story buildings in the near future either, and in light of that, I think it's best to not put in such rigid standards for buildings of that height range. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather see this plan approved as it has much good in it, but I just don't get the strict LEED-certification requirements for taller buildings. It's just too impractical. Don't put in the restrictions just to have to make exceptions for every project that's proposed to be 10 stories plus, whether that starts happening in the near future or not-so-near future.

[spartanburgh]

Krazeeobi, your right, it's just not logical. In addition to the code stating above 9 stories must be Platinum LEED (DT-6 only), any office building exceeding 6 stories, Must be LEED silver or Gold. My thought all along is that this does nothing to 99% of all buildings that will be built in Spartanburg. NO incentive for smaller buildings to be LEED certified and nothing to entice them to be of a higher quality. It only addressed less than 1% of what could be built, and its makes it unreasonably difficult for them.

The last point I want to make is DT-6 is a small area of downtown that is mostly built out. You could build a 6 storey office building by the railroad tracks along W. Main ST.(DT-6), but the existing City hall site is limited to 4 stories, East of the Denny's tower is limited o 4 stories, even the South side of Broad St. is limited to 4 stories (all DT-4). The DT-6 and DT -4 zones are not well thought out.

I suggest calling the City switch board 596-2000 and asking for planning or the City Managers office and give them your thoughts. Also e-mail council members and let them know what you think on this or any other thing you have a problem with.