Downtown Greensboro Developments

[cityboi]

18 hours ago, rancenc said:

CITYBOI, I want to commend you on your constant updates on development within Greensboro.  I am a member of the Charlotte grouping, and there have been and continues to be articles like yours which details actual projects, projects that could be happening soon "as heard it through the grapevine", projects that have been announced and cancelled, and "wishful thinking" projects.  Keep up your work on notifying the rest of the state on actual and possible projects in Greensboro and Guilford County!!

Thanks. Whether proposals are hearsay,  wishful thinking or projects underway I try to make positive contributions to this forum. There is nothing wrong at all with using our imagination along with posting about concrete plans. When citizens and city leaders use their imagination about the possibilities thats how cities move forward. If Greensboro has the mindset this cant happen here or it will never be feasible, guess what, it will never happen. These are great forums to present ideas because I know for fact developers and city leaders read these forums.  In fact I know of a few high profile people in Greensboro who post or read here which I won't reveal their identities.  I sent Roy Carroll and other city leaders a visionary rendering of Project 561 which included an Aloft hotel. This was long before he made plans to build an Aloft. Carroll had my drawing published in his newspaper and I later found out through a friend of mine who works in city government that he was showing the drawing to others and maybe even potential tenants.  If the Aloft project is Project 561 maybe a few of my ideas at least as far as the hotel flag goes may have helped him in putting the project together. Over excitement and being engaged in the future direction of your community can be a good thing.  As far as Project 561, we still don't know enough details. It could be the Aloft project, or it may not be or it could possibly be scaled back. I personally dont think its out of the realm to be built as proposed based on what has happened in the past. In 1989/90, three office towers, doubled the office space of Project 561 were built at the same time and that was almost 30 years ago. So the past proves its possible to bring that much office space online all at once in the center city.  However its always about timing and it will be market driven which depends on the state of the economy.  Whether it gets built as proposed may be another story. Its likely it will get reconfigured some kind of way whether it will have less office space and residential added or it could be built a few stories shorter. If Roy Carroll is set on this being 561 ft tall and can't find enough businesses to fill the office space,  all he has to do is replace some of that office space with residential which wasnt included in his intial plan. He obviously wants this to be a statement tower. Developer plans always change between the time when its just an idea to when the groundbreaking happens. Sometimes they are bigger in scale sometimes they are smaller in scale. Sometimes the scope of the project changes a bit. In the case of Carroll at Bellemeade it grew much larger in scope. It started out as just being a hotel. 

There aren't too many people from Greensboro posting in the Greensboro sections of any of the urban/skyscraper websites because up until this point there just wasn't a lot going on and not a whole lot to talk about.  Sure I get excited about the possibilities of what could and will happen but its no reason for some to attack me for it. Some may say its over excitement but I see that from posters in every city section on the skyscraper forums whether its Charlotte,  Raleigh or Winston- Salem and I get singled out for it. Thats just who I am and those who have read these forums over the years know that about me. If it turns them off so be it.  I understand the skepticism about some things being proposed in Greensboro because downtown hasnt seen a lot of big projects over the years. But thats changing and we are finally seeing some things happening the wouldnt have happened 15 or 20 years ago. A Westin in downtown Greensboro or any new hotel for that matter? That would have been laughable 15 years ago and to some degree an Aloft hotel would have been laughable. Greensboro has taken on some pretty big projects downtown with mainly private money like the ballpark, performing arts center and two great urban parks. Thats no easy task for any city and there are cities larger than Greensboro that have not been able to finance projects like that privately. Greensboro's performing arts center cost nearly $90 million and 50 percent of that is being paid for through donations with the other 50 percent being paid for through hotel/motel tax and user fees. No bond was needed and Greensboro tax payers wont have to foot the bill and it will still be city owned.  The ballpark was built entirely with private dollars through a non profit and both Center City park and LeBauer park were built privately and were given to the city of Greensboro.

Honestly based on what is currently happening downtown we can start to be a little less skeptical about some of the rumors or things being proposed because the city is proving itself and big tangible things are happening. We should all be proud of the cities in our state and stop hating on other cities and on posters who are just shining a light on the great things that could and are happening. It just uncalled for and people need to respect everyone and grow up. We are suppose to be a community here all with the same interests. 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by cityboi

[HRVT]

10 hours ago, RALNATIVE said:

Oh please! Maybe if certain people spent more time discussing details about actual projects and legitimate prospective projects than "marketing" Greensboro and constantly comparing the city to other cities in the state, more people would feel inclined to engage in these threads. This sentiment is nothing new, and i'm not the only one who has expressed these concerns over the years. These threads have become all but obsolete other than for its entertainment value.

Cmon now.... CitiBoi may be a bit overly optimistic at times, but I enjoy the commentary and his contributions nonetheless. But not all of the projects that he talks about are fluff or simply rumor. The new 9 story office building next to the stadium? That starts construction in a few months. The Wyndham? That starts construction in the later part of the year. Is it possible one or both of these fall through? Sure. But to say they're unrealistic at this point is quite far-fetched and condescending to the poster.

Now Project 561... I would agree that it's too much for Greensboro. The A-Loft proposal has a TON of similarities to the former Project 561 proposal and IMO probably is that project (though it'll probably be Project 436 or something like that instead). The only real difference is that instead of being 28 stories on top of an 8 story parking deck is that now it seems to be a 20 story building on top of an 8 story parking deck. We'll hear more in the summer and sure it could very well fall through (or be something else altogether). But what's the harm in at least talking about it? Heck, what's the harm in talking about other far-fetched rumors? Of course, a lot of rumors are just that.... fluff. But before bold projects are built, the rumors start flying. Every now and then, those rumors are true at least to a degree.

[cityboi]

Developer Marty Kotis want to transform the Bardoloph Building across from the depot/amtrak station/bus station into in interesting mixed use building with retail, offices and restaurants. The building at one time use to be a candy factory many years ago. 

 

http://www.greensboro.com/business/local_business/marty-kotis-outlines-plans-for-transforming-bardolph-building-in-greensboro/article_da043dcb-86df-58a0-90b4-ceb578e6f91b.html

Edited June 4, 2017 by cityboi

[KJHburg]

I enjoy @cityboi posts and for keeping the Greensboro forum alive. In terms of the Skyhouse I would say after they have built in the larger southern markets like Atlanta (multiple locations) 2 towers in Charlotte, 1 in Raleigh 1 in Nashville, 3 in Houston etc. I can see them going into a market like Greensboro which is not as competitive as the larger markets. They usually do control their own parking so not sure about leasing any city lots or garages. As for the 561 tower, it is indeed very ambitious but with mixed uses could work (hotel, office, residential) . I think the office component would be the hardest part because of low rental rates in Greensboro vs a Charlotte or Raleigh. You have to have tenants to pay top market values for space in such a tall high rise

Every city in the state has had some huge towers than never panned out like the 80 story 4 First Union Bank tower, or the Soliel tower by Crabtree Valley. Lets not forget the Space Needle proposed for Charlotte back in the 80s!  We also had a 50 story condo project in Charlotte stopped at 3rd level and that is just now 8 years later becoming a more modest 22 story hotel. Also just last year we had a condo tower 1 Brevard proposed and cancelled within 1 year. However I think that new ballpark office tower in Greensboro is a fantastic project that any city in the state would want. 

[HRVT]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I enjoy @cityboi posts and for keeping the Greensboro forum alive. In terms of the Skyhouse I would say after they have built in the larger southern markets like Atlanta (multiple locations) 2 towers in Charlotte, 1 in Raleigh 1 in Nashville, 3 in Houston etc. I can see them going into a market like Greensboro which is not as competitive as the larger markets. They usually do control their own parking so not sure about leasing any city lots or garages. As for the 561 tower, it is indeed very ambitious but with mixed uses could work (hotel, office, residential) . I think the office component would be the hardest part because of low rental rates in Greensboro vs a Charlotte or Raleigh. You have to have tenants to pay top market values for space in such a tall high rise

Every city in the state has had some huge towers than never panned out like the 80 story 4 First Union Bank tower, or the Soliel tower by Crabtree Valley. Lets not forget the Space Needle proposed for Charlotte back in the 80s!  We also had a 50 story condo project in Charlotte stopped at 3rd level and that is just now 8 years later becoming a more modest 22 story hotel. Also just last year we had a condo tower 1 Brevard proposed and cancelled within 1 year. However I think that new ballpark office tower in Greensboro is a fantastic project that any city in the state would want. 

I actually wonder if Skyhouse may be looking at smaller markets now to build smaller versions of their current towers. I know most of (if not all of) their current towers are about 20-25 stories and that may be a bit ambitious as well in a market like Greensboro. However, a 12-15 story tower may very well work for Skyhouse while still achieving Greensboro's goal of bringing more residents and thus more activity downtown.

[cityboi]

4 hours ago, HRVT said:

I actually wonder if Skyhouse may be looking at smaller markets now to build smaller versions of their current towers. I know most of (if not all of) their current towers are about 20-25 stories and that may be a bit ambitious as well in a market like Greensboro. However, a 12-15 story tower may very well work for Skyhouse while still achieving Greensboro's goal of bringing more residents and thus more activity downtown.

I actually heard something a while ago about Novare looking at  smaller markets for scaled down Skyhouses. Dont know if thats true or not but it would make sense to be able to tap into more markets. 

[cityboi]

7 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I enjoy @cityboi posts and for keeping the Greensboro forum alive. In terms of the Skyhouse I would say after they have built in the larger southern markets like Atlanta (multiple locations) 2 towers in Charlotte, 1 in Raleigh 1 in Nashville, 3 in Houston etc. I can see them going into a market like Greensboro which is not as competitive as the larger markets. They usually do control their own parking so not sure about leasing any city lots or garages. As for the 561 tower, it is indeed very ambitious but with mixed uses could work (hotel, office, residential) . I think the office component would be the hardest part because of low rental rates in Greensboro vs a Charlotte or Raleigh. You have to have tenants to pay top market values for space in such a tall high rise

Every city in the state has had some huge towers than never panned out like the 80 story 4 First Union Bank tower, or the Soliel tower by Crabtree Valley. Lets not forget the Space Needle proposed for Charlotte back in the 80s!  We also had a 50 story condo project in Charlotte stopped at 3rd level and that is just now 8 years later becoming a more modest 22 story hotel. Also just last year we had a condo tower 1 Brevard proposed and cancelled within 1 year. However I think that new ballpark office tower in Greensboro is a fantastic project that any city in the state would want. 

I think Charlotte will eventually get to 80 stories. Its only a matter of time and could happen sooner than we realize the way that city is growing. I could see it being a mixed use tower with offices a hotel and apartments. In Greensboro a 30 to 35 story mixed use tower would be feasible especially if we continue to see high demand for downtown residential. But it would have to be mixed use and probably sit on top of a deck to reach that height.  I do think Greensboro could support an apartment project with the leasing rates of a SkyHouse. There is a luxury apartment complex now being planned for Friendly Center that will have leasing rates that will top $2,000 per month. It will be the most expensive apartment complex in the city. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by cityboi

[KJHburg]

I think a slightly smaller Skyhouse would work well for Greensboro. The move back to the urban centers of cities is a not just a Charlotte or Raleigh idea but is going on everywhere in the state and region.  Your new ballpark, your new huge city park, new preforming arts center all these make your downtown a focal point for the county, the metro area.  When I was there last summer I was quite impressed with the street level activity and construction I saw. You have some large companies based in the area I would love for them like VF to do a tower of some sort. 

[cityboi]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

I think a slightly smaller Skyhouse would work well for Greensboro. The move back to the urban centers of cities is a not just a Charlotte or Raleigh idea but is going on everywhere in the state and region.  Your new ballpark, your new huge city park, new preforming arts center all these make your downtown a focal point for the county, the metro area.  When I was there last summer I was quite impressed with the street level activity and construction I saw. You have some large companies based in the area I would love for them like VF to do a tower of some sort. 

VF Corp's headquarters on the north side of town takes up quite a bit of square footage, enough to do an 18 story tower downtown. I would suggest such a tower be built right next to the Wrangler headquarters downtown which VF Corp owns. Arch Capital is in question as to what they would do downtown. They could just move their headquarters in the United Gauranty building or build a new tower or become the anchor tenant for Carroll's tower project. Arch Capital will likely move up to the Fortune 500 list because it is now the largest mortgage insurance company in the United States. They just have to relocate their corporate headquarters from Bermuda to Greensboro. Thats more reason to think that maybe they are waiting on Carroll to get his project together because its been 6 months and they haven't moved yet. Roy Carroll was looking for a headquarters to anchor his tower project. Like others have said, I think the Aloft project is in some form project 561 and he is suppose to make a major announcement about the Aloft project this summer. Of course that would open up office space in the United Gauranty building. Arch Capital recently acquired that company. 

What we are starting to notice is that street level activity is starting to spread away from Elm and Greene St. The ballpark area is really becoming active as well as parts of Davie Street. 

Edited June 5, 2017 by cityboi

[cityboi]

After going back and reading an article from a year ago in the Triad Business Journal, I have come to the conclusion that the Aloft project across the street from the ballpark is likely a slightly scaled down or reconfigured Project 561. Initially The lot was targeted for Project 561 but shortly after Carroll said he was leaning toward the site directly next to his Center Pointe condo tower on North Elm St. Carroll said if he builds it next to Center Pointe, the lot across the street from the ballpark would be a much smaller project (lowrise or midrise) with retail and a small office component. This is clearly not the case based on city documents which reveals plans for the site. Everything about the Aloft project mimics Project 561 which calls for a small boutique hotel and office on top of an 8 story deck. We now know the city is building an 8 story deck which calls for a 20 story building on top of it. However initially Carroll said a 28 story building on top of an 8 story deck. So either its scaled down by 8 stories or it would still be 561 ft tall with a taller spire structure if his intent is to keep the project at the height. If I am right, Carroll has landed his anchor tenant but has not gone public with it yet. Carroll had said about a year ago that he had two large companies and two medium sized companies interested but didnt have an anchor tenant yet that would have naming rights for the building. Im still betting that we could be calling this building the Arch Capital Group Tower. I find it interesting that the news about Arch Capital relocating its corporate headquarters to Greensboro and the Aloft project broke just a few days apart last December. 

From the business journal from a little over a year ago.... 

"Carroll at Bellemeade would be an ideal complement to Project 561, which would include street-level retail and potentially a boutique hotel with restaurant, he said.

"I think our Carroll at Bellemeade project definitely enhances our program for that parking lot, and enhances our ability to land that big tenant," Carroll said.

Up to eight stories of parking would be topped with 28 stories of office or hotel space, with a structural spire on top to take the high-rise up to 561 feet, nearly 200 feet taller than Greensboro's tallest building, the Lincoln Financial Group building.

"Basically in broad strokes, we'd like something that has a contemporary flair to it, of course," Carroll said.

And what if the spot neighboring Centerpointe wins out? Carroll said the parking lot will likely become home to a scaled-down project that includes retail, parking and a much smaller office component."

http://www.bizjournals.com/triad/news/2016/03/01/with-land-bought-carroll-seeks-anchor-tenant-for.html

But then again what if this isn't Project 561? What if Project 561 is still planned for North Elm and his scaled down plans for the parking lot across from the ballpark evolved and grew ín size to a hotel/apartment tower like Carroll at Bellemeade evolved and grew in size and scope?  Guess we will find out within a few months. I certainly would love for them to be two separate projects because downtown would then have two towers 28 plus stories tall. One tower like that would be a dramatic change to Greensboro's skyline but with two buildings that height along with dense midrise projects like Carroll at Bellemeade, ballpark tower and two or three more additional (residential) towers which was alluded to in Triad City Beat newspaper. (and one being the Westin), Greensboro's skyline would not even be recognizable. Once the ballpark tower and Carroll's tower across from the ballpark are built, Greensboro will no longer have just a north/south axis skyline along Elm/Greene Streets. It will expand to having an east/west axis skyline. But id like to see a tower or two built between the ballpark and Greene/Elm Street to fill in the small gap that will exist once the ballpark area towers are built. 

 

Btw Roy Carroll is planning to invest $100 million on industrial sites that he owns to help attract hitech companies to Greensboro.  He is fully aware that this kind of investment helps drive what he is doing downtown. Smart man. If you want to keep building high end mixed use residential towers downtown, you have to attract more high paying jobs so that more people can afford to live in those expensive residential towers. Roy Carroll has become the most prominent developer in Greensboro. In the 1990s it was Joe Koury. The Carroll Companies is one of the largest real estate development companies in the southeast. His company is also the builder for the planned mixed use village and Westin hotel in Wilmington, NC. His Aloft tower project in Greensboro will be his second tower project downtown. The other is the Center Pointe condo tower where the penthouse unit is his home. He can stand on his balcony and overlook all of his downtown projects. Center Pointe use to be the old Wachovia tower. He completely gutted the building to its steel frame and took a vacant eye sore and turned it into a luxury condominium tower back in 2007/2008. 

Wachovia Bank / Center Pointe

The ground level has an upscale steak house and the second floor has offices. The north side of the building has no balconies and has false windows except for where the stairwell is located. That was intentionally done for any future plans for a tower rising directly next to it which is land Carroll owns. It is/was one of the potential sites for Project 561. 

http://www.greensboro.com/business/local_business/roy-carroll-to-spend-up-to-million-on-industrial-projects/article_56be742d-206f-5b2d-8ea0-8492719b75d7.html

Downtown skyscraper construction boom in the late 80s. Looks like we could see another one soon. 

There are actually more tower cranes that are not visible in this photo. I certainly remember this. I was about 12 years old at the time. 

Edited June 8, 2017 by cityboi

[cityboi]

Keith Debbage talks about the downtown building boom. 

http://www.greensboro.com/opinion/columns/keith-debbage-a-downtown-building-boom/article_5e12feea-4d51-11e7-a1d6-2fd0bd3996e3.html

[kcw1988]

cityboi we need a nice rendering of what this area could look like in a few years

[cityboi]

3 hours ago, kcw1988 said:

cityboi we need a nice rendering of what this area could look like in a few years

If I had renderings of the Aloft/tower project, other unannounced projects, time and  updated graphics software I would do it myself  lol. Hopefully Roy Carroll or the city will produce some sort of renderings showing all  of the projects around the ballpark with the rest of Greensboro's skyline. It's about time downtown is getting new towers after 27 years of no new additions to the city's skyline. In the 1980s there were a total of five high-rises constructed, two in the early 80s and three in the late 80s. We are long overdue for another tower boom. Greensboro, Winston-Salem and Durham have seen very little tower construction over the last few decades in the downtowns. Two were constructed in the 1990s in Winston-Salem and none have been constructed since. There could have been opportunities for one or two but developers chose to renovate current towers there instead of new construction.  Durham goes back even further in time however there  was recently a 9 or 10 story government building  constructed near the ballpark in Durham and there is currently a 28 story tower being constructed right now in downtown Durham. What that means is that Charlotte, Raleigh, Durham and Winston-Salem will all have downtown towers taller than the ones in Greensboro at least until Carroll's Aloft tower project/Project 561 is built. Raleigh and especially Charlotte have been going through a tower boom for a while now and there seems to be tower cranes constantly erected in downtown Charlotte.

But the new midr-rises and high-rises will be a welcome addition to downtown Greensboro. As the Downtown Greensboro Incorporated president said recently, "it's time to go vertical"

Edited June 14, 2017 by cityboi

[KJHburg]

Some general downtown skyline shots and the new park is really nice. 

[cityboi]

Thanks for the tour! Glad you made it up here. Over the next 3 years we are going to see some serious construction cranes.

[KJHburg]

Drove all down Elm Street (no photos though) great scale and very busy with shops, restaurants, bars etc. Greensboro has a lot of potential with its parks, lots of independent businesses, just needs a couple of high rises 10-30 stories to fill out the skyline. It has really changed for the better in the last few years and I never realized how close UNCG was to downtown. Great to see all those apartments going up too. 

[cityboi]

Yes UNCG/Greensboro College border downtown. Its great to have a college population border downtown. On the other side of downtown there is Bennett College and NC A&T. Hopefully we will see some big changes in Greensboro skyline

Edited June 30, 2017 by cityboi

[Trent Y]

On 6/14/2017 at 1:46 AM, cityboi said:

If I had renderings of the Aloft/tower project, other unannounced projects, time and  updated graphics software I would do it myself  lol. Hopefully Roy Carroll or the city will produce some sort of renderings showing all  of the projects around the ballpark with the rest of Greensboro's skyline. It's about time downtown is getting new towers after 27 years of no new additions to the city's skyline. In the 1980s there were a total of five high-rises constructed, two in the early 80s and three in the late 80s. We are long overdue for another tower boom. Greensboro, Winston-Salem and Durham have seen very little tower construction over the last few decades in the downtowns. Two were constructed in the 1990s in Winston-Salem and none have been constructed since. There could have been opportunities for one or two but developers chose to renovate current towers there instead of new construction.  Durham goes back even further in time however there  was recently a 9 or 10 story government building  constructed near the ballpark in Durham and there is currently a 28 story tower being constructed right now in downtown Durham. What that means is that Charlotte, Raleigh, Durham and Winston-Salem will all have downtown towers taller than the ones in Greensboro at least until Carroll's Aloft tower project/Project 561 is built. Raleigh and especially Charlotte have been going through a tower boom for a while now and there seems to be tower cranes constantly erected in downtown Charlotte.

But the new midr-rises and high-rises will be a welcome addition to downtown Greensboro. As the Downtown Greensboro Incorporated president said recently, "it's time to go vertical"

I wouldn't stress about the downtown tower height too much. The new City Center tower in Durham is actually only going to be about 300ft even. Its mostly residential so the floor count is deceptive.

Though it has a pretty interesting downtown, Durhams skyline also has some catching up to do (which similiar to Gboro, seems like it will be happening sooner then later.) But as far as height goes Gboro still looks bigger.

I figure by 2022, the 5 biggest NC cities skylines will rank as follows if everything rumored and planned comes to fruition.

1. Charlotte obviously will always remain far ahead. No surprise there. Ridiculous the amount of development right now.

2. Raleigh will continue to widen the gap and start to look even more like a "bigger" city compared to the other NC cities. A lot of proposals in the pipeline and even more gaining traction. By the end of 2019 alone the city is going to have 5 or 6 serious projects either done or close to it. And thats probably being conservative. Not to mention midtown North Hills which is continuing to grow into a second downtown as far as density and highrise/midrise developments. With even more expansion on the way.

3. MAYBE if everything talked about for Gboro happens by then i could see it equaling or moving past Winston-Salem. Not in overall towers but project 561 alone will be game changing. Hopefully it happens, kind of a shame downtown gboro has taken this long because it deserves that 3 spot since it is the states 3rd largest city. I doubt everything will happen but ill give it the benefit of the doubt because im rooting for it.

4. WS. I havent heard of any true cityscape changing projects in the rumor mill but i could also just have missed something. But because of its large development lead over gboro i could see it still either being tied or losing its 3rd spot to the boro.

5. Durham. Even though Durham is technically larger then WS now and is starting to move forward with great projects, it'll still be awhile before it catches up to where Winston is now or where Gboro is headed.

[cityboi]

9 hours ago, Trent Y said:

I wouldn't stress about the downtown tower height too much. The new City Center tower in Durham is actually only going to be about 300ft even. Its mostly residential so the floor count is deceptive.

Though it has a pretty interesting downtown, Durhams skyline also has some catching up to do (which similiar to Gboro, seems like it will be happening sooner then later.) But as far as height goes Gboro still looks bigger.

I figure by 2022, the 5 biggest NC cities skylines will rank as follows if everything rumored and planned comes to fruition.

1. Charlotte obviously will always remain far ahead. No surprise there. Ridiculous the amount of development right now.

2. Raleigh will continue to widen the gap and start to look even more like a "bigger" city compared to the other NC cities. A lot of proposals in the pipeline and even more gaining traction. By the end of 2019 alone the city is going to have 5 or 6 serious projects either done or close to it. And thats probably being conservative. Not to mention midtown North Hills which is continuing to grow into a second downtown as far as density and highrise/midrise developments. With even more expansion on the way.

3. MAYBE if everything talked about for Gboro happens by then i could see it equaling or moving past Winston-Salem. Not in overall towers but project 561 alone will be game changing. Hopefully it happens, kind of a shame downtown gboro has taken this long because it deserves that 3 spot since it is the states 3rd largest city. I doubt everything will happen but ill give it the benefit of the doubt because im rooting for it.

4. WS. I havent heard of any true cityscape changing projects in the rumor mill but i could also just have missed something. But because of its large development lead over gboro i could see it still either being tied or losing its 3rd spot to the boro.

5. Durham. Even though Durham is technically larger then WS now and is starting to move forward with great projects, it'll still be awhile before it catches up to where Winston is now or where Gboro is headed.

Your ranking is pretty accurate. I think in order for Greensboro's skyline to move up to third best in the state after Charlotte and Raleigh, it needs to have a tower like project 561 or close to it in height, an additional tower around 28 or 30 stories and two or three more towers between 12 and 20 stories. A few more mid rise projects wouldnt hurt either. If the Aloft project and project 561 are two different projects,  Greensboro would get the two towers around 28 to 30 stories right there. Greensboro will be getting a Westin 17 stories tall and a 9 story office tower next to the ballpark so two or three more towers after that would do it and there are currently unannounced proposals for other residential towers. But right now those residential towers are only proposals not concrete plans. 

There havent been any tower announcements for Winston-Salem. Im sure we will see some but I think one reason for that is because developers have chosen to renovate existing highrise structures instead of building new towers from the ground up. It will be interesting to see how a larger amount of office space in the innovation quarter, which would primarily be midrises would affect tall tower proposals. There may not be a lot of tall office projects because of it which means mixed use towers which combine residential and some office may be the way to go. Research Parks can suck up all of development in the office market with low to midrise office buildings which is why we don't see a lot of office towers being planned in the Triangle. Even if thats the case in Winston-Salem, its research park is downtown and even if the buildings there were primarily midrises, that would still add to the density of Winston-Salem's skyline. Its not just about the tall towers, midrises can make a huge impact in a city's skyline. Height variations are key to having a great skyline. This is why Greensboro actually needs more projects like the 9 story ballpark tower and Carroll at Bellemeade in addition to the taller towers. And there are plenty of parking lots in downtown Greensboro that can be turned into midrise developments. My biggest complaint about Greensboro's skyline besides the fact it doesnt have a large number of tall buildings is that its four tallest buildings which stand out the most appear to be about the same height. Yes there are some smaller towers that surround those buildings but I think once we start seeing towers around 30 stories that will make a huge difference. Back in the early 80s there were plans for a 30 - story glass corporate headquarters for an insurance company based in the city. It was to be built where the 21- story Wells Fargo tower stands today. Those plans were cancelled when the company decided to relocate to South Carolina. 

Edited July 7, 2017 by cityboi

[Trent Y]

On 7/7/2017 at 7:44 AM, cityboi said:

Your ranking is pretty accurate. I think in order for Greensboro's skyline to move up to third best in the state after Charlotte and Raleigh, it needs to have a tower like project 561 or close to it in height, an additional tower around 28 or 30 stories and two or three more towers between 12 and 20 stories. A few more mid rise projects wouldnt hurt either. If the Aloft project and project 561 are two different projects,  Greensboro would get the two towers around 28 to 30 stories right there. Greensboro will be getting a Westin 17 stories tall and a 9 story office tower next to the ballpark so two or three more towers after that would do it and there are currently unannounced proposals for other residential towers. But right now those residential towers are only proposals not concrete plans. 

There havent been any tower announcements for Winston-Salem. Im sure we will see some but I think one reason for that is because developers have chosen to renovate existing highrise structures instead of building new towers from the ground up. It will be interesting to see how a larger amount of office space in the innovation quarter, which would primarily be midrises would affect tall tower proposals. There may not be a lot of tall office projects because of it which means mixed use towers which combine residential and some office may be the way to go. Research Parks can suck up all of development in the office market with low to midrise office buildings which is why we don't see a lot of office towers being planned in the Triangle. Even if thats the case in Winston-Salem, its research park is downtown and even if the buildings there were primarily midrises, that would still add to the density of Winston-Salem's skyline. Its not just about the tall towers, midrises can make a huge impact in a city's skyline. Height variations are key to having a great skyline. This is why Greensboro actually needs more projects like the 9 story ballpark tower and Carroll at Bellemeade in addition to the taller towers. And there are plenty of parking lots in downtown Greensboro that can be turned into midrise developments. My biggest complaint about Greensboro's skyline besides the fact it doesnt have a large number of tall buildings is that its four tallest buildings which stand out the most appear to be about the same height. Yes there are some smaller towers that surround those buildings but I think once we start seeing towers around 30 stories that will make a huge difference. Back in the early 80s there were plans for a 30 - story glass corporate headquarters for an insurance company based in the city. It was to be built where the 21- story Wells Fargo tower stands today. Those plans were cancelled when the company decided to relocate to South Carolina. 

Yeah agreed. I think Gboro is definitely going to take that next step up in 5 years or so. The city is still growing at a decent clip so the demand should remain hopefully.

Winston i can see doing a lot of mid fill which in my opinion is about all it needs currently. Besides Charlotte, it probably is the only city in NC that actually punched above its weight for a city of its size as far as its downtown/skyline goes.Gboro has always been major sprawl and though Durham and Raleigh have done fine, RTP has sucked away a lot of development that would have probably gone in each cities downtown.

I love that NC has RTP but i cant help but imagine what all that office space would make each city look like had it been split between the two. Wake county just ladded 2,000 jobs for Infosys. Unfortunately it sounds like they will put those jobs in RTP instead of downtown or North Hills. That many jobs alone could just about fill a another 400ft tower. But oh well its going to help the economy regardless.

[KJHburg]

The issue I see with both Winston and Greensboro building really tall buildings is that is very expensive to do so and you have to have the office leasing rates to do that. Right now I can tell you Winston does not have the tenants willing to pay for new construction of a high rise. Renovations of their older buildings and backfilling old warehouses and factories add lots of vitality. (Look at Durham in that respect) However there is one tenant that some day could build a taller building in Winston and that would be BB&T if they want to anchor it.

As for Greensboro I hope Project 561 comes to fruition but if not a 25-30 story tower might be more feasible and it would still need to be mixed use. VF Corp is the wildcard maybe they would be interested in anchoring a new high rise. 

The reason Charlotte builds so many tall office towers is we have large users that demand lots of space and large floorplates like our banks, Duke etc. Even though for example Austin TX is about the same size of metro Charlotte we build larger purely office towers whereas they build lots of tall apartment and condo towers. Ditto for Nashville lots of new construction downtown but not on the scale of Charlotte's buildings. What I have seen,  both Gboro and Winston downtowns have bright futures. Both are attracting lots of residential, renovations, new public parks (mainly Gboro) and have the commitment from the locals to make their downtown a showpiece. 

 

[cityboi]

Agreed. Charlotte's business climate is totally different from Greensboro and Winston-Salem, even from Raleigh. You are not going to see that kind of demand for office space in the Triad's downtowns. Historically just about every decade there is at least one tall building built in downtown Greensboro. However the city has gone almost 30 years in this case. Greensboro saw the biggest spurt back in the 80s. Two towers were built in the early 80s and three taller towers were built at the end of the 80s. RTP in the Triangle does hinder the construction of office towers in Raleigh and Durham. Like Greensboro, Raleigh and Durham both have small skylines for their respective size. Durham is not that far behind Greensboro in population and its skyline is smaller than Greensboro even with the new 28 story tower that is going up. Raleigh is getting close to 500,000 and it should have a larger skyline. But much of the office demand has been at RTP. 

Edited July 10, 2017 by cityboi

[cityboi]

Haha Mr Isaac Cain isn't giving up. Everyone is ignoring him but you gotta give it to him. He has vision even if what he is proposing may be ahead of Greensboro's time. Now you have to register to see the project summery.

The two towers on the rendering were superimposed on Davie Street. The tower on the right is situated on the parking lot that Lincoln Financial owns and is diagonally across from Center City Park. I can tell because I can see the Greensboro Cultural Center in the background on the rendering. That lot is also diagonally across the street from where the Westin deck is going. It's good to have vision and I would love to see these tower built. The tower on the right looks cool and is a major upgrade from the hand sketches that was on his website in the past.

2017 Greensboro Triumph Center - Ardent Square

It's suppose to include:

an upscale highrise hotel and convention center

 residential mixed use office tower 

entertainment pavilion 

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by cityboi

[drawscape]

On 7/10/2017 at 10:23 PM, cityboi said:

Haha Mr Isaac Cain isn't giving up. Everyone is ignoring him but you gotta give it to him. He has vision even if what he is proposing may be ahead of Greensboro's time. Now you have to register to see the project summery.

The two towers on the rendering were superimposed on Davie Street. The tower on the right is situated on the parking lot that Lincoln Financial owns and is diagonally across from Center City Park. I can tell because I can see the Greensboro Cultural Center in the background on the rendering. That lot is also diagonally across the street from where the Westin deck is going. It's good to have vision and I would love to see these tower built. The tower on the right looks cool and is a major upgrade from the hand sketches that was on his website in the past.

2017 Greensboro Triumph Center - Ardent Square

It's suppose to include:

an upscale highrise hotel and convention center

 residential mixed use office tower 

entertainment pavilion 

 

This is a pretty awkward shot, is this a professional rendering or just something the developer through together?

[cityboi]

 

2 hours ago, drawscape said:

This is a pretty awkward shot, is this a professional rendering or just something the developer through together?

Not sure where it comes from but its a big improvement from those sketches. The building on the right is pretty cool though and would be a decent addition to Greensboro's skyline. Clearly the renderings were superimposed in a photo of downtown Greensboro. The brick building in the background is the Greensboro Cultural Center. I am puzzled by the office/residential tower on the left. Theoretically if this were built, the Davie Street Parking Deck would have to be demolished. The hotel and convention center / entertainment pavilion on the right sits on land that is currently a parking lot owned by Lincoln Financial and a piece of property owned by developer Marty Kotis. 

I do think with a partnership with the city and veteran developers use to building these kind of projects, a scaled down version that is right for Greensboro could work. It just so happens that the mayor suggested building an office tower on the News and Record property across the street and Greensboro developer Marty Kotis, who is redeveloping midtown suggested building a convention center on the News and Record site as well, both of which are a part of the Triumph Center Ardent Square vision. A 12 story tower half the height of the mixed use tower on the left in the rendering (6 floors of office and 6 floors of apartments) is feasible for downtown because if Roy Carroll moves forward with project 561, there wont be much demand for significant office space downtown so office space in the Ardent Square would have to be scaled back. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by cityboi