Downtown Greensboro Developments

[jthomas]

13 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Isn't the NC Business Court on that block that was highlighted?   The court's location in Greensboro is the reason you have so many law firms downtown as that is where all big business court decisions are decided. 

Elon Law owns pretty much all of the buildings and land in between the blue block and the two large parking garages - that may be what you're thinking of? The blue block is mostly surface parking with a smattering of 1-story buildings. Half of that area is owned by West Market Street UMC. It would certainly be a great area for redevelopment.

 

[cityboi]

On 1/18/2022 at 8:59 PM, KJHburg said:

Isn't the NC Business Court on that block that was highlighted?   The court's location in Greensboro is the reason you have so many law firms downtown as that is where all big business court decisions are decided. 

I think the Greensboro Merchants Association along with a few businesses own a big chunk of the land then there are the law firms. GMA might sell but its hard to say if law firms or Elon might sell. Commerce Street between Friendly and Bellemeade would have to closed and there is a church daycare on the southern end of the block. Acquiring land for large projects can be difficult in downtown Greensboro. That's why a few foundations made "land bank" purchases for certain parcels in downtown Greensboro for a future developer. The only real alternative site for an arena would be the News and Record property which is up for sale. There is enough room for a small arena, small convention center and some residential and office development when you factor in an adjoining vacant site closest to the depot. The Westin and new city parking deck will be across the street. The Westin could be the convention center's anchor hotel via pedestrian bridge over Davie Street.

Edited January 20, 2022 by cityboi

[HRVT]

On 1/15/2022 at 4:50 PM, jthomas said:

I think the downtown arena idea is a distraction at best. DGI put it out there, but it feels gimmicky to me, along with some of the other ideas like the autonomous shuttles. Their efforts would be much better spent working to facilitate small infill development throughout downtown. I’m sure the expectation is that the city would pay a significant portion of the cost to build an arena. Those millions would be much more impactful doing something like expanding transit service. If we had a useful and functional transit network, developments could devote less space to car storage, which in turn would lead to more walking, biking, and transit use. Sure, that’s not as sexy as a new downtown arena, but it’s a much better investment.

As proposed, I agree. The Triad is littered with arenas that seat 4-5k (The Annex to the Lawrence Joel, the Coliseum Annex, as well as arenas/gyms at UNC-G, NC A&T, High Point, and Elon... and I may be missing 1-2).

The Triad also has Lawrence Joel and Greensboro Coliseum to satisfy the 15k+ "need". What is missing though is something in the middle.

I thought High Point missed an opportunity by electing to build the Triad's third minor league stadium (arguably 5th if you include those in Burlington and Thomasville) instead of the mid-sized arena the Triad is missing. This is an area where downtown Greensboro can capitalize. At about 7000 seats, the arena would be large enough to attract an ECHL team and maybe even an AHL team. The Swarm could move in as well (or as the only tenant). This frees up the Coliseum Annex for other uses while bringing foot traffic to downtown during the winter/early spring.

But at 5000, you MAYBE attract the Swarm (but the arena might not be big enough long term to keep them). You probably don't attract a hockey team either. There's no real reason the Thunderbirds would leave Winston-Salem and really I'm not sure if the FHL moves the needle enough.

IMO, a 5000 seat arena is a waste of money. 7000 could potentially work out in the long term.

[jthomas]

27 minutes ago, HRVT said:

As proposed, I agree. The Triad is littered with arenas that seat 4-5k (The Annex to the Lawrence Joel, the Coliseum Annex, as well as arenas/gyms at UNC-G, NC A&T, High Point, and Elon... and I may be missing 1-2).

The Triad also has Lawrence Joel and Greensboro Coliseum to satisfy the 15k+ "need". What is missing though is something in the middle.

I thought High Point missed an opportunity by electing to build the Triad's third minor league stadium (arguably 5th if you include those in Burlington and Thomasville) instead of the mid-sized arena the Triad is missing. This is an area where downtown Greensboro can capitalize. At about 7000 seats, the arena would be large enough to attract an ECHL team and maybe even an AHL team. The Swarm could move in as well (or as the only tenant). This frees up the Coliseum Annex for other uses while bringing foot traffic to downtown during the winter/early spring.

But at 5000, you MAYBE attract the Swarm (but the arena might not be big enough long term to keep them). You probably don't attract a hockey team either. There's no real reason the Thunderbirds would leave Winston-Salem and really I'm not sure if the FHL moves the needle enough.

IMO, a 5000 seat arena is a waste of money. 7000 could potentially work out in the long term.

Genuine question - what types of events and shows are we missing out on by not having a facility that size? I think it's more likely that a smaller arena would cannibalize events from the Coliseum that currently just use the lower bowl. Even if a downtown arena landed the Swarm and a hockey team, that's less than 100 events total. How many more new (not relocated) events would really come to fill the calendar.

I'm just thinking in terms of the opportunity cost. Even at 200 events per year, that's still only 55% of a calendar year with an event, and the building would only be active for a few hours each day. Is that really the best use for what would be a large tract of downtown land? Not to mention the cost - presumably this would be funded by the city, and even a bare-bones arena would likely cost well north of $100M these days. I can think of several less sexy but much more impactful and transformative ways that the city could spend $100M.

My larger point is that I believe there needs to be a shift in the way our leaders think about downtown. Right now, it seems like the council (and DGI) think in terms of "what can we do to get more people to visit downtown?" I think this shows an outdated urban/suburban dichotomy, where the assumption is that people will live elsewhere in the city, and occasionally visit downtown for work/dining/entertainment. While that will always be one function of a central district, I think it would be more beneficial to think of downtown as a neighborhood unto itself. What is best for the people who live there, or own a business there? How can we grow the number of people who live downtown? Increasing the number of full-time residents downtown by 7,000 would have a vastly bigger impact than bringing 7,000 people to an event 200 times a year. I recognize that this doesn't have to be an either/or proposition, but I feel that there is not enough attention paid to growing the residential population. I guarantee that if there was a big push to drastically increase residential development in downtown, everything else that people want to see (more restaurants, shops, attractions, towers, etc.) would follow naturally.

[HRVT]

2 hours ago, jthomas said:

Genuine question - what types of events and shows are we missing out on by not having a facility that size? I think it's more likely that a smaller arena would cannibalize events from the Coliseum that currently just use the lower bowl. Even if a downtown arena landed the Swarm and a hockey team, that's less than 100 events total. How many more new (not relocated) events would really come to fill the calendar.

I'm just thinking in terms of the opportunity cost. Even at 200 events per year, that's still only 55% of a calendar year with an event, and the building would only be active for a few hours each day. Is that really the best use for what would be a large tract of downtown land? Not to mention the cost - presumably this would be funded by the city, and even a bare-bones arena would likely cost well north of $100M these days. I can think of several less sexy but much more impactful and transformative ways that the city could spend $100M.

My larger point is that I believe there needs to be a shift in the way our leaders think about downtown. Right now, it seems like the council (and DGI) think in terms of "what can we do to get more people to visit downtown?" I think this shows an outdated urban/suburban dichotomy, where the assumption is that people will live elsewhere in the city, and occasionally visit downtown for work/dining/entertainment. While that will always be one function of a central district, I think it would be more beneficial to think of downtown as a neighborhood unto itself. What is best for the people who live there, or own a business there? How can we grow the number of people who live downtown? Increasing the number of full-time residents downtown by 7,000 would have a vastly bigger impact than bringing 7,000 people to an event 200 times a year. I recognize that this doesn't have to be an either/or proposition, but I feel that there is not enough attention paid to growing the residential population. I guarantee that if there was a big push to drastically increase residential development in downtown, everything else that people want to see (more restaurants, shops, attractions, towers, etc.) would follow naturally.

To answer your first question, I would say that I think the Coliseum will soon (within 10-15 years) become an albatross and frankly not worth the extreme amounts of money for the upkeep. So admittedly that plays a role in my position as well. The money it would take to renovate could go to the new arena instead in theory (wouldn't have to of course).

I'm also not necessarily saying that Greensboro *should* build the arena (nor am I saying an exact site where it should go). I'm saying that if an arena is decided on, then bigger will bring greater ROI than a 5000 seat arena which is highly redundant in both Greensboro and the Triad as a whole.

And yes, I agree that if I could choose between a full 7000 seat arena 200 (or even 250) nights per year or 7000 residents, of course I'd choose residents. And I agree that should be the focus. I suspect an arena would be another perk of living downtown....

Obviously, overall ROI should be investigated first WITHOUT bias (yeah yeah, I know) before anything is built. My greater point was that yet another 5k seat arena would be a waste and add little to the community. A 7-8k seat arena would be more attractive to those events.

Also FWIW, many tenants don't want any part of an oversized arena that is tarped off. They want a right sized arena. I also wouldn't want to build without some guarantee (for instance, having something on paper for the Swarm to relocate to the new arena... and preferably an ECHL/AHL team too). If they can attract the arena league team too, that's potentially close to100 nights per year spoken for right from the start. All without other events/concerts.

Note: I typed this as time was running out on a self-imposed time limit on a work break... so if it rambles a bit, that's why.

Edited January 20, 2022 by HRVT

[cityboi]

Having a smaller arena whether it be 5,000 seats or 7,000 seats fills a niche.  The 23,500 seat arena at the coliseum is too big for some events. Also having two arenas in the city of different sizes allows for multiple events in Greensboro at the same time. In addition to attracting a hockey team to downtown or the Greensboro Swarm a 7,000 seat arena could be used for concerts that need more than 3,000 seats at the Tanger Center but less than the 23,500 seat Greensboro Coliseum. Charlotte and Raleigh both utilize two arenas.  Raleigh has the larger PNC Arena and the smaller Dorton arena which about 7,000 seats. Charlotte has the Spectrum arena and the Bojangles Coliseum. Greensboro has proven itself as being a destination for arena events and there is no question about that.

Lastly having a 7,000 seat arena preferably adjoining a small downtown convention center could help attract more conventions downtown. Right now the arena is an idea being floated by the city of Greensboro and Downtown Greensboro Incorporated. Its not an actual proposal at this point. But if the city gives the green light on this my guess is that it would be roughly an 8 to 10 year process which is the average amount of time for projects such as this in downtown Greensboro. The performing arts center from idea the completion actually took about 20 years. Action Greensboro laid out a downtown comprehensive plan which showed a performing arts center at its current location back in 2001. It was labeled as a " concert hall" and had an office tower attached to it.

Edited January 20, 2022 by cityboi

[HRVT]

So I did a little digging regarding arena costs on comparable construction. What I found was.... not much. Frankly, there hasn't been a lot of construction lately of "minor league" arenas. When adding in college arenas, a little more data comes to light.

Unfortunately, the extreme inflation in construction costs may ultimately render a new arena unrealistic. Again, a 5k seat arena at just about any cost seems silly to me. There's just so much competition including the Coliseum Annex a couple miles away.

What I did find though:

Henderson, NV is building an arena slightly larger than 6,000 seats. The cost is around $70 million. To be honest, this seems palatable. If the difference between 6ish thousand seats and 7ish thousand seats is tens of millions, a 6000 seat arena might still be good enough (especially if you can get closer to 6500).

Outside of that, I see a few arenas in the 8-10k seat range with price tags ranging from $175-250 million. That level of cost would be a non-starter (though in a hypothetical either/or situation, in 10 years I'd prefer a new 10k seat arena to a renovated Greensboro Coliseum if the costs are similar).

Auburn built a 9k seat arena for a "current day" cost of about $100 mil... but construction costs have gone way up... that would probably cost $130-150 mil these days. Maybe more. It was 10 years ago.

Five years ago, Ole Miss built a 9500 seat arena for just under $100 mil. But again...

Omaha got just under 8k seats for about $90 mil a few years ago.

But construction costs have skyrocketed in those last few years. We aren't building next year or anything though. If the rise of costs can settle down and we can get that 7000 or so seat arena for a cost that isn't approaching a quarter billion dollars, it's worth exploring. Not blindly building.

 

[jthomas]

53 minutes ago, HRVT said:

So I did a little digging regarding arena costs on comparable construction. What I found was.... not much. Frankly, there hasn't been a lot of construction lately of "minor league" arenas. When adding in college arenas, a little more data comes to light.

Unfortunately, the extreme inflation in construction costs may ultimately render a new arena unrealistic. Again, a 5k seat arena at just about any cost seems silly to me. There's just so much competition including the Coliseum Annex a couple miles away.

What I did find though:

Henderson, NV is building an arena slightly larger than 6,000 seats. The cost is around $70 million. To be honest, this seems palatable. If the difference between 6ish thousand seats and 7ish thousand seats is tens of millions, a 6000 seat arena might still be good enough (especially if you can get closer to 6500).

Outside of that, I see a few arenas in the 8-10k seat range with price tags ranging from $175-250 million. That level of cost would be a non-starter (though in a hypothetical either/or situation, in 10 years I'd prefer a new 10k seat arena to a renovated Greensboro Coliseum if the costs are similar).

Auburn built a 9k seat arena for a "current day" cost of about $100 mil... but construction costs have gone way up... that would probably cost $130-150 mil these days. Maybe more. It was 10 years ago.

Five years ago, Ole Miss built a 9500 seat arena for just under $100 mil. But again...

Omaha got just under 8k seats for about $90 mil a few years ago.

But construction costs have skyrocketed in those last few years. We aren't building next year or anything though. If the rise of costs can settle down and we can get that 7000 or so seat arena for a cost that isn't approaching a quarter billion dollars, it's worth exploring. Not blindly building.

 

Thanks for the research - very interesting. You are right that the explosion in construction costs makes the equation very unfavorable. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing soon, barring another global recession. IMO, there are fundamental issue in the industry beyond the Covid disruptions that are causing the spiraling costs, and those won't be resolved quickly.

You are right to bring the future of the Coliseum into the discussion. I think the Coliseum is a fantastic asset for Greensboro - due to the size of the facility and Greensboro's central location in NC, we land a lot of shows and events that might not otherwise come to a metro this size. But, trends in arena design have shifted pretty dramatically in a different direction. Modern facilities have somewhat smaller seating capacities, but with large varieties of premium seating options. They are being located in walkable urban areas, often as anchors for nightlife/entertainment districts. While overall I think the Coliseum facilities are relatively good, they are located in a sea of surface parking in the middle of an industrial area. And of course, facilities require constant maintenance and investment to stay fresh.

So, what to do? A modern, downtown arena with 18k seats, connected to a new, larger convention center would be great, but a project like that could easily cost $1B or more. That is laughably out of reach for Greensboro, especially without a major anchor tenant for the arena. So, that leaves investing in the existing facility, and just as crucially, in the surrounding area. However, that is far from an overnight process - like planting a tree, the best time to start is 10 years ago. But I think it is crucial for the city to think seriously about this issue and start making plans. The risk of doing nothing is that eventually events will choose to go elsewhere, leaving the city with a large (and largely empty) liability.

[cityboi]

3 hours ago, HRVT said:

So I did a little digging regarding arena costs on comparable construction. What I found was.... not much. Frankly, there hasn't been a lot of construction lately of "minor league" arenas. When adding in college arenas, a little more data comes to light.

Unfortunately, the extreme inflation in construction costs may ultimately render a new arena unrealistic. Again, a 5k seat arena at just about any cost seems silly to me. There's just so much competition including the Coliseum Annex a couple miles away.

What I did find though:

Henderson, NV is building an arena slightly larger than 6,000 seats. The cost is around $70 million. To be honest, this seems palatable. If the difference between 6ish thousand seats and 7ish thousand seats is tens of millions, a 6000 seat arena might still be good enough (especially if you can get closer to 6500).

Outside of that, I see a few arenas in the 8-10k seat range with price tags ranging from $175-250 million. That level of cost would be a non-starter (though in a hypothetical either/or situation, in 10 years I'd prefer a new 10k seat arena to a renovated Greensboro Coliseum if the costs are similar).

Auburn built a 9k seat arena for a "current day" cost of about $100 mil... but construction costs have gone way up... that would probably cost $130-150 mil these days. Maybe more. It was 10 years ago.

Five years ago, Ole Miss built a 9500 seat arena for just under $100 mil. But again...

Omaha got just under 8k seats for about $90 mil a few years ago.

But construction costs have skyrocketed in those last few years. We aren't building next year or anything though. If the rise of costs can settle down and we can get that 7000 or so seat arena for a cost that isn't approaching a quarter billion dollars, it's worth exploring. Not blindly building.

 

One interesting piece of information. When the Greensboro Coliseum was first being planned in the 1940s it was planned to be built downtown which was an idea way ahead of its time back then. However downtown didn't have the proper roadway infrastructure and downtown residents opposed the idea so it was built 2 miles west of downtown.

One of the things Greensboro has going for it is generosity. When it comes to taxpayer funded venues, the citizens tend to balk at that but that's everywhere. However the city does have deep private pockets. When you look at the last two largest venues built in downtown Greensboro (ballpark and the performing arts center) they were either built using money from foundations or donors. In the case of the performing arts center the nearly $100 million venues was built primarily with donors funds and the rest hotel/motel tax. Its almost unheard of in most other cities including cities larger than Greensboro. If it weren't for generosity Greensboro likely would not have a downtown ballpark or performing arts center today. So construction cost shouldn't scare away the idea of building a downtown arena but there has to be a plan how to fund it and most importantly the purpose of the arena has to be identified and how it would benefit the community. An arena could be built using private dollars in a similar fashion but also corporate naming rights can help fund it as well. But I agree if the city is gonna do it then yes maybe it needs to have 7,000 seats as oppose to 5,000. But the cost of an arena that size would be comparable to the cost of the Tanger Center. The key is having the arena appeal to those who might want be donors or maybe a private developer could built it himself like Koury did with the convention center. Having anchor tenants such as the Swarm or a hockey team definitely helps.

The city has invested too much money into the Greensboro Coliseum for it to be replaced so really the only thing the city can do is build a smaller niche arena downtown.

Edited January 21, 2022 by cityboi

[HRVT]

1 hour ago, jthomas said:

Thanks for the research - very interesting. You are right that the explosion in construction costs makes the equation very unfavorable. Unfortunately, I don't see that changing soon, barring another global recession. IMO, there are fundamental issue in the industry beyond the Covid disruptions that are causing the spiraling costs, and those won't be resolved quickly.

You are right to bring the future of the Coliseum into the discussion. I think the Coliseum is a fantastic asset for Greensboro - due to the size of the facility and Greensboro's central location in NC, we land a lot of shows and events that might not otherwise come to a metro this size. But, trends in arena design have shifted pretty dramatically in a different direction. Modern facilities have somewhat smaller seating capacities, but with large varieties of premium seating options. They are being located in walkable urban areas, often as anchors for nightlife/entertainment districts. While overall I think the Coliseum facilities are relatively good, they are located in a sea of surface parking in the middle of an industrial area. And of course, facilities require constant maintenance and investment to stay fresh.

So, what to do? A modern, downtown arena with 18k seats, connected to a new, larger convention center would be great, but a project like that could easily cost $1B or more. That is laughably out of reach for Greensboro, especially without a major anchor tenant for the arena. So, that leaves investing in the existing facility, and just as crucially, in the surrounding area. However, that is far from an overnight process - like planting a tree, the best time to start is 10 years ago. But I think it is crucial for the city to think seriously about this issue and start making plans. The risk of doing nothing is that eventually events will choose to go elsewhere, leaving the city with a large (and largely empty) liability.

I totally agree that if the strategy is to invest in the Coliseum then investment needs to happen ASAP in the surrounding area. An entertainment district, higher density housing, and/or at least expanded shopping and dining options. 

In the shorter term, perhaps a special event BRT line between DT and the Coliseum could help (using overhead signage to designate a lane as a travel lane or a dedicated BRT lane perhaps) at least get people somewhere with entertainment/dining/lodging options until those exist near the Coliseum.

If the strategy is to not move forward with the Greensboro Coliseum, perhaps that gives some financial leeway in the new downtown arena. Maybe by then (5+ years from now) the construction costs will be lower relative to other spending. Obviously replicating the Greensboro Coliseum a few miles away (downtown) is a non-starter. But with the Coliseum no longer part of the long term (in this hypothetical), we can think a little larger than 5k or even 7k (though once you get much above 7k, diminishing returns start to kick in until you hit about 15k).

But Greensboro does need to start figuring out which way they want to go.

[KJHburg]

with the Toyota announcement and the pending announcement of Boom Supersonic maybe someone does need to start a high rise apartment tower downtown.  Surely some of these employees might be interested.   Someone should reach out to LMC which is the multifamily division of Lennar homes.  Or call Kane over in Raleigh to do something. 

[cityboi]

9 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

with the Toyota announcement and the pending announcement of Boom Supersonic maybe someone does need to start a high rise apartment tower downtown.  Surely some of these employees might be interested.   Someone should reach out to LMC which is the multifamily division of Lennar homes.  Or call Kane over in Raleigh to do something. 

I agree and we can't rely on Roy Carroll to build everything downtown. Surely some of these housing developers have the capability. Even Grubbs Properties which seems to be building urban residential projects in every major NC city except for Greensboro. A highrise Links Apartments 

Edited January 24, 2022 by cityboi

[cityboi]

 

Article link from November 2020

Here are some answers as to why the sale of the News and Record property has been slow. It appears the site has contamination in the ground from previous owners before the News and Record was built in the 1970s. There were gas stations there. Because of that the site is considered as a brownfield and there is financial help for developers in this case. Mayor Nancy Vaughn states she would like to see a developer come in and build something that would change the skyline. She states there is still demand for quality office space. DGI president Zack Matheny said he gets calls from interested developers all the time and most are looking to turn the property into a multi use development involving a convention center and even a hotel. He has different ideas. Matheny would like to see something like a riverwalk with outparcels that can be sold. (Think San Antonio and Oklahoma City ) Something similar to the artifical river feature of American Tobacco in Durham but 10 times longer. I'd like to see a combination of the two. Maybe a convention center/hotel mixed with residential and office along with the riverwalk with out parcels for retail, residential and restaurants. Also an outdoor performance space that could be utilized as one of the stages for the North Carolina Folk Festival and other events. The riverwalk could also cross under East Market Street through the vacant Lincoln Financial parking lot which could get developed, under Friendly Avenue and end at Lebauer Park.  That would require street closings though to build bridges. If the city wants this property to get purchased anytime soon the owners need to clean up the property so that it is more shovel ready.

https://triad-city-beat.com/nr-building/?amp

The bottom yellow outline property is the News and Record site, the upper yellow outlined area is the a Lincoln Financial owned parking lot which could get redeveloped. The blue represents the path of the riverwalk and the red is the Westin and city parking deck. I think the main issue would be closing a portion of East Market Street and Friendly Ave (at different times) to build bridges. Those are main artery roads going in and out of downtown and detouring traffic could present a temporary traffic problem. But this would  provide an interesting way for hotel guests and convention goers on the News and Record property to walk to Lebauer Park and the Tanger Center. Along the way there would be development, restaurants and breweries. The riverwalk could include Wayfinder signs directing people to Lebauer Park, Greensboro Cultural Arts Center, the Greensboro Historical Museum and the Tanger Center. This idea in not entirely new. Action Greensboro proposed a mile like river like lake along the tracks. That is unlikely to happen because Norfolk Southern won't sell the railyard and the parking lot for CityView Apartments borders the railroad on a portion of where the river lake was suppose to go. Its basically taking that idea, relocating it and incorporating it with dense urban development.

Edited January 24, 2022 by cityboi

[jthomas]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:06 PM, jthomas said:

My larger point is that I believe there needs to be a shift in the way our leaders think about downtown. Right now, it seems like the council (and DGI) think in terms of "what can we do to get more people to visit downtown?" I think this shows an outdated urban/suburban dichotomy, where the assumption is that people will live elsewhere in the city, and occasionally visit downtown for work/dining/entertainment. While that will always be one function of a central district, I think it would be more beneficial to think of downtown as a neighborhood unto itself. What is best for the people who live there, or own a business there? How can we grow the number of people who live downtown? Increasing the number of full-time residents downtown by 7,000 would have a vastly bigger impact than bringing 7,000 people to an event 200 times a year. I recognize that this doesn't have to be an either/or proposition, but I feel that there is not enough attention paid to growing the residential population. I guarantee that if there was a big push to drastically increase residential development in downtown, everything else that people want to see (more restaurants, shops, attractions, towers, etc.) would follow naturally.

I found an interesting blog post that expands on some of the ideas I mentioned above. Good read if you're looking for something to do while avoiding work today:

https://oldurbanist.blogspot.com/2011/12/downtown-is-for-people.html?apcid=0060f5c474b5b5bba4435d00&utm_campaign=012122-friday-fave&utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_source=autopilot

[cityboi]

More on the new owners of First National Bank Field (Temerity Baseball) . They plan to add a year round restaurant at the ballpark that will be open before the end of the year and the ballpark will be a year round venue hosting other events such as concerts weddings etc. In addition they will add a brewery at the ballpark and explore other development such as residential housing. Similar to what they are doing in Kannapolis with the 7-story apartments and brewery overlooking the field. Hopefully they build something around 10-stories at our stadium.

 

The article also mentions Carroll Ballpark South which is still to include a 12-story AC Hotel, 20-story office tower, over 280 units of 6 and 7 story apartments, conference space, retail and in addition something new I haven't heard before...a small grocery store.

 

https://www.bizjournals.com/triad/news/2022/02/10/grasshoppers-stadium-sold.html

Rendering of the apartments and brewery Temerity Baseball has planned for the ballpark in Kannapolis. Expect something similar and potentially larger for First National Bank Field. In 5 years or so the ballpark area will be unrecognizable, highly dense with a number of tall buildings. With the future and potential developments in and around the ballpark, First National Bank Field will be seeing a similar amount of high density development going up around Durham Bulls Athletic Field. The state's two most developed ballparks.

Break down of developments and future developments around First National Bank Field 

1 Lomax Properties - Greenway at Fisher Park Apartments - COMPLETED

2 Lomax Properties - Greenway at Stadium Park Apartments - COMPLETED

3 Carroll Companies - Carroll at Bellemeade Apartments / Hyatt Place Hotel - COMPLETED

4 Front Street Capital - 9- story office building (Project Slugger) - COMPLETED

5 Carroll Companies - Carroll Ballpark South (12-story AC Hotel, 20-story office tower, 280 apartments, retail, grocery store) - PLANNED/ SOON UNDER CONSTRUCTION 

6 Temerity Baseball - restaurant, brewery and high density multi-family housing - PROPOSED 

Once everything is completed there will be over 1,000 apartments directly around the ballpark. That's about 2,000 to 3,000 residents just around the ballpark itself.

In addition there are other individual establishments that have opened near the ballpark including a number of restaurants, breweries and an organic grocery store.

Edited February 11, 2022 by cityboi

[DCB]

https://www.greensboro-nc.gov/home/showdocument?id=51759&t=637798224184225911 So the Redevelopment Commision has finally pushed a plan for the South Elm redevelopment to the city council and it's... *drum roll*  a small single story suburban grocery store surrounded by surface parking lots. This is so crappy it feels like it should be a joke. lmao I can't believe it took them 17 years and millions of dollars to propose this. Is it possible for them to be fired?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2022 by DCB

[DCB]

Also the agreement would give them five years to develop the site quite literally making this pathetic thing 22 years in the making. If the city council approves this they're a complete joke.

[DownEast]

Toyota, Boom, Wal-Mart Neighborhood Market... Yikes. 

[jthomas]

The suburban mindset runs deep in this town, unfortunately...

[cityboi]

Wow. What's worse is that the parking lot buts up against the main road instead of the store. I like the fact that a Lidl grocery store is coming to downtown Greensboro but yes the layout sucks and a lot of land is wasted for parking spaces.

Edited February 13, 2022 by cityboi

[cityboi]

Rhino Times. Maybe with enough push back, a developer could get involved and work with Lidl to build something more appropriate. You would think Lidl would prefer a plan with high density residential above its store or around it in a mixed-use development. Having 200 plus apartments at its front door means business for Lidl.

 

https://www.rhinotimes.com/featured-article/wisdom-of-stand-alone-downtown-grocery-store-questioned/

Edited February 13, 2022 by cityboi

[DCB]

The redevelopment commision needs to be seriously looked at if this is the best they can do after 17 years and millions of dollars. 

[cityboi]

17 minutes ago, DCB said:

The redevelopment commision needs to be seriously looked at if this is the best they can do after 17 years and millions of dollars. 

Clearly this looks nothing like the renderings for this site. Let's hope this concept plan changes.

[jthomas]

Link to email city council and city manager:

https://www.greensboro-nc.gov/government/city-council/e-mail-city-council

Let them know what you think!

[cityboi]

Fox 8 video news link on Lidl

https://myfox8.com/news/north-carolina/greensboro/lidl-grocery-store-could-come-to-downtown-greensboro/