Downtown Greensboro Developments

[JerseyBoy]

Ummm, so I guess everyone forgets that downtown Greensboro actually has an office market. Having basically one hotel downtown serve as a lodging place for business travelers sounds like the downtown hotel market is quite underserved and could easily handle the absorption of a few more hotel rooms.

There are conventions in Greensboro all the time, so I think it's folly to say that "the only time Greensboro gets enough tourists and patrons is when there are tournaments in town." Of course, the tournaments bring in loads and loads of people, but I know that Greensboro typically picks up several religious conventions every year that have a few to several thousand attendees.

Developers use the exact strategy that coastalmindset mentioned. Sure, most do their homework before building, but why is it that you have empty condo towers in Las Vegas, Miami, and Atlanta? Every developer was competing for a small number of buyers and this is the end result of that flawed notion. This same type of thinking applies to hotels as well. Why do you see hotels pop-up around theme parks, convention centers, shopping destinations, and office centers? All of them are competing for the people who visit these places. The majority of Greensboro's hotels are located on I-40/85 because of the huge amount of travelers trying to get from Point A to Point B. Does Koury get conventions that bring a burst of people into Greensboro? Yes, but not often. Because of this, the Sheraton is an adequate size to accomodate these people, yet can still fill rooms to keep afloat in the offseason. Downtown Greensboro on the other hand has a small amount of major corporations to warrent three new hotels.

I believe the reason developers are proposing these hotels is to cash in on an opportunity to draw tourists/travelers away from the crappy Marriott, Sheraton, and possibly O' Henry. Now, you have hotels that can barely make a profit and are desperate for guests. This is the scenario I foresee happening and is the basis of my negative views about the hotel market in Greensboro and Triad.

[suburban george3]

Does anyone know what the occupancy rates are for the downtown hotels?

[Creasy336]

I can see large concerts/ coliseum events attracting alot of people to downtown now, also don't forget about events such as NC A&Ts homecoming, concerts at UNCG, and graduation time. Some people take "local" vacations in nice hotels just to take a break from life. I know these events alone wouldn't draw enough traffic, but im sure there are a multitude of events I left off. I'd be satisfied with the construction of a downtown hotel as long as it isn't anything outlandish.

EDIT: What hotels are in downtown Greensboro besides the Marriot and the Greensboro Inn which really isn't a hotel (Anyone from Greensboro knows what im talking about).

Edited May 30, 2008 by Creasy336

[JerseyBoy]

Here is a quick map of the two hotels in downtown Greensboro (Marriott and The Biltmore):

I researched the two and found them to be very mediocre (both averaged 2.5-3 out of 5 stars), judging by guests' reviews. I believe there is room for one or two quality full-service hotels to serve the niche boutique market in downtown. Three, in my opinion, is overkill for the immediate area.

[cityboi]

Does anyone know what the occupancy rates are for the downtown hotels?

I do know for years the downtown Marriott was a money loser. Dennis, owner of the OHenry and Proximity told me that. But Ive heard lately more guest have been staying at the Marriott. Thats a sign that Greensboro's downtown revitalization is having an effect. The word is getting out. There is a whole page on Greensboro's downtown nightlife with photos in the official NC visitors guide. People staying at hotels, whether its on business or vacation, want to stay where all the action is and now downtown has an Amtrak station.

Edited May 30, 2008 by cityboi

[krazeeboi]

Developers use the exact strategy that coastalmindset mentioned. Sure, most do their homework before building, but why is it that you have empty condo towers in Las Vegas, Miami, and Atlanta? Every developer was competing for a small number of buyers and this is the end result of that flawed notion. This same type of thinking applies to hotels as well. Why do you see hotels pop-up around theme parks, convention centers, shopping destinations, and office centers? All of them are competing for the people who visit these places. The majority of Greensboro's hotels are located on I-40/85 because of the huge amount of travelers trying to get from Point A to Point B. Does Koury get conventions that bring a burst of people into Greensboro? Yes, but not often. Because of this, the Sheraton is an adequate size to accomodate these people, yet can still fill rooms to keep afloat in the offseason. Downtown Greensboro on the other hand has a small amount of major corporations to warrent three new hotels.

It simply depends on how large the new hotels are. Sure Greensboro isn't home to ten F500 corporations, but the downtown hotel market is still underserved when you consider the companies and institutions that are located downtown. Also, Greensboro's downtown is in the midst of a continuing revitalization, and the proposed hotels are probably in anticipation of the more prominent role downtown will come to play as a destination. In that regard, it reminds me of downtown Greenville and the hotels that have been built there for the past couple of years have definitely been successful.

[cityboi]

It simply depends on how large the new hotels are. Sure Greensboro isn't home to ten F500 corporations, but the downtown hotel market is still underserved when you consider the companies and institutions that are located downtown. Also, Greensboro's downtown is in the midst of a continuing revitalization, and the proposed hotels are probably in anticipation of the more prominent role downtown will come to play as a destination. In that regard, it reminds me of downtown Greenville and the hotels that have been built there for the past couple of years have definitely been successful.

I agree, it really depends on the size of the hotels. I doubt you'll see a 700 room hotel in downtown Greensboro anytime soon. I personally think downtown could handle a hotel between 100 to 200 rooms which is still smaller than the downtown Marriott. And then maybe a second hotel with 50 rooms. However I do think there needs to be large meeting/convention space in at least one of the hotels, maybe between 50,000 and 100,000 square feet of meeting space. At 100,000 square feet, thats a little less than half the size of meeting space in the Koury Convention Center.

Edited May 30, 2008 by cityboi

[krazeeboi]

I agree with you about large meeting/convention space downtown. It's a shame that a lot of people who come to Greensboro for meetings and conventions don't even get to experience downtown because their hotels are out in the 'burbs.

[cityboi]

Now that the lot across from the Depot is now for sale, I think that would be a prime location for a major hotel and small convention center. I mean that lot is right across the street from the Amtrak station, city/coach bus station. That would be ideal to have a convention hotel across the street from a transportation hub.

[cityboi]

One thing I'd like to add, Ed Wolverton, president of Downtown Greensboro, Inc said that 4 downtown projects have been put on hold. He would not name them but he said its because the current lending picture for commercial development has been dampened by banks wanting twice the equity for loans than previously. Where banks had been seeking 10 percent equity, now they are demanding 20 percent before making loans. That means that maybe projects such as the Greensboro Triumph Center are on hold and havent fell through after all. City leaders still will not comment on the Greensboro Triumph Center even today, indicating that project could be dormant for the time being. There is no reason at all to scrap that project all together. But its anybody's guess what those 4 projects are. Obviously there are some other projects that have not been made public yet.

Edited May 30, 2008 by cityboi

[cityboi]

looks like I was right about downtown building another hotel between 100 and 200 rooms.

A new downtown study say downtown can have an upscale, full service hotel. A hotel is being planned to be built behind the Elm Street Center at the corner of February One Place and Davie Street. The hotel would have 200 rooms and would be between 10 and 15 stories tall. Its a great idea to attach a hotel to the Elm Street Center because it has a comedy club, upscale restaurant and two large ballrooms. Plus the International Civil Rights Museum will be across the street.

"Ed Wolverton, president and CEO of Downtown Greensboro Inc., said there's a need for more hotel rooms downtown.

He said the center city has more than 900 businesses, more than 20,000 workers and nearly 1,000 residential units. Plus, the downtown has the lowest vacancy rate of the six office markets in Guilford County, including Green Valley"

"Right now, I envision something along the lines of a Grandover," he said, referring to Grandover Resort and Conference Center off Business 85. "It's going to be a very nice hotel....We continue to be moving the project forward."

http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...STAFF/135541143

Also remember a Charlotte developer is planning a highrise luxury condo/boutique hotel at the corner of Davie Street and Friendly Ave. That building is planned to be at least 12-stories. The third hotel being planned for downtown could be the 20-story convention hotel that was being planned as part of the Greensboro Triumph Center. That project would include office space, residential, an entertainment complex that would have a cosmic bowling alley, skating rink, multiplex theater, IMAX theater, simulator rides, children's rides, billard tables and restaurant/music venue that seats between 1,000 and 2,000 people and attracts national acts. Ed Wolverton had said several downtown projects had been put on hold and the Greensboro Triumph Center could be one of them.

But I think its fair to say that if the hotel being planned behind the Elm Street Center is as nice as Grandover and if its a chain hotel, expect it to be a Wyndham Hotel or something along those lines.

Edited June 7, 2008 by cityboi

[twincity]

this is great news...but are there really 20,000+ workers in downtown Greensboro?

[cityboi]

this is great news...but are there really 20,000+ workers in downtown Greensboro?

according to DGIs numbers it is. Really that not hard to believe though especially when you consider how many people work in each of the big towers alone. It will probablly be two or three years before we see ground be broken on this hotel. The economy is going through a slump and over the next couple of years we will see a new surge of downtown development once the ecnomy improves. I love the location of this proposed hotel because it helps fill in that big gap in Greensboro's skyline between the Jefferson Standard building and the Guilford Building. Im actually more surprised that the study suggested that downtown could support a full service luxury hotel among the likes of Grandover. But it was also surprising to hear that of the largest office markets in Guilford County, downtown Greensboro has the lowest vacancy. Thats good news and signals the prospects of potential major office projects for downtown in the upcoming years. When vacancy hits a certain low level and companies want to expand, developers start planning office projects. Thats what happened in the late 1980s along with the fact that office space in downtown Greensboro in the late 80s was outdated. We then saw the rise of 3 office towers.

Edited June 7, 2008 by cityboi

[crowe1856]

The president of DGI is quoted in the N&R story as saying, " I think it shows that downtown is continuing to emerge as a business and visitor center. As downtown has grown, so have the needs of travelers and people wanting to stay downtown."

Too bad the Convention & Visitor Bureau just moved from downtown to out by the mall on High Point Road. Seriously, what's up with that?

[krazeeboi]

The numbers in the article give specifics to what I was getting at earlier. With those numbers, and with downtown in the midst of a continuing revitalization, downtown could easily absorb at least another 200 hotel rooms. If this one proposed is to be along the lines of Grandover in terms of being a full-service hotel with name recognition, I'd expect others proposed after this one to be mid-tier brands, like Hampton Inn, Hilton Garden Inn, Marriott Courtyard, or an extended-stay hotel.

[cityboi]

The Rumor Mill:

according to the downtown Greensboro Magezine "99 Blocks", there are "serious" discussions going on about a new office tower in downtown Greensboro. The magezine also confirmed that there are some hotels in the works for downtown, at least one of them being a high-rise but could be two if the Charlotte developer John Adox continues with his condo/hotel tower near Center-City Park. I will say its about time. With exception to the Wachovia Building renovation, Greensboro's skyline has not changed in 18 years.

If plans proceed with an office tower, I sure hope the architecture will be something a little bold like the Hearst Tower in uptown Charlotte and not just a plain old ordinary office tower.

Edited July 10, 2008 by cityboi

[cityboi]

Piano, Keys and Martini Bar will be opening up on South Elm Street near where Rum Runners use to be.

[cityboi]

Rocky Scarfone, owner of Much, Heaven, the N Club and Red Room is planning a Sushi Bar next to the N Club. He also has more up his sleeve. He is planning a "Wings Restaurant" and a "concept restaurant" Scarfone is not disclosing further details. I'll keep everyone posted.

[Noneck_08]

Rocky Scarfone, owner of Much, Heaven, the N Club and Red Room is planning a Sushi Bar next to the N Club. He also has more up his sleeve. He is planning a "Wings Restaurant" and a "concept restaurant" Scarfone is not disclosing further details. I'll keep everyone posted.

^ I'm feeling those plans, I think Greensboro is much overdue for a nice wings place. I know in both Columbia and Chapel Hill they have wing places downtown and they always seem packed when I go by. Add that on to the large student population around town and I think it would be a hit.

[crowe1856]

^ I'm feeling those plans, I think Greensboro is much overdue for a nice wings place.

I know it's not a wing joint in the vein of some of the franchises, but Minj Grille across from Cheesecakes By Alex started out doing wings for tailgates and demand led them to open the restaurant. They are positively fantastic. Don't have dozens of flavors like the chains, but the meatiness, texture and flavor are totally gourmet compared to the shriveled bones you sometimes get at other places. Definitely worth checking out. (no, I don't work there, I just know the disappointment of a lackluster wing)

[Creasy336]

I love Minj Grille, The Wings, and the live music, good pick Crowe

[JerseyBoy]

Rocky Scarfone, owner of Much, Heaven, the N Club and Red Room is planning a Sushi Bar next to the N Club. He also has more up his sleeve. He is planning a "Wings Restaurant" and a "concept restaurant" Scarfone is not disclosing further details. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thank you for these details! An indie wing restaurant will go over extremely well in downtown. Greensboro (and the Triad) needs a better alternative to the mediocre Buffalo Wild Wings.

[cityboi]

one thing that I've noticed is that there are alot of restaurants downtown, about 50, however many of the restaurants serve the same dishes. There is some variety downtown. There is Italian, Caribbean, Japanese, Greek, ect. But i'm surprised no one has opened up a BBQ restaurant downtown. This state is known for its pork BBQ and I think someone would do very well if they opened one up seeing that there is no other BBQ restaurant downtown. I think there also should be a nice seafood restaurant. There are restaurants that serve seafood dishes but there is no seafood restaurant downtown that I can think of. There should be a Chinese restaurant there too.

Edited August 5, 2008 by cityboi

[Jason Hardin]

one thing that I've noticed is that there are alot of restaurants downtown, about 50, however many of the restaurants serve the same dishes. There is some variety downtown. There is Italian, Caribbean, Japanese, Greek, ect. But i'm surprised no one has opened up a BBQ restaurant downtown. This state is known for its pork BBQ and I think someone would do very well if they opened one up seeing that there is no other BBQ restaurant downtown. I think there also should be a nice seafood restaurant. There are restaurants that serve seafood dishes but there is no seafood restaurant downtown that I can think of. There should be a Chinese restaurant there too.

Hey, cityboi. This is Jason Hardin, I'm a reporter with the News & Record. I'm working on a story that touches on Southside and mixed-use developments, and am looking to talk with some people who live there. If you're interested, could you send me an e-mail at [email protected]?

[Beany]

well looky who is famous...