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Downtown Greensboro Developments


cityboi

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If I remember correctly, it was about a year ago that Ray Gibbs said big things were going to happen according to your post. Ray Gibbs says this, Ray Gibbs knows this, and we are all still waiting for this announcement. Ray Gibbs is long gone, and there has been no big announcement. Now it is Roy Carroll says this and knows this. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with being a big dreamer and everyone wants their city to grow, but I don't think downtown Greensboro is headed in that direction. Since you are so obsessed with high rises, have your ever thought about moving to a bigger city like New York, Chicago, San Francisco, Miami. These are all big cities with great urban cores that are continuing to see big time development like you want to see in downtown Greensboro.

The difference is that Roy Carroll is actually building a high-rise project downtown. So is it pie in the sky? I dont think so. Quite frankly I dont think its a "big dream" just to build a skyscraper. There is a difference between building a skyscraper and building a $300 million tourist/entertainment development. Its not that Greensboro cant support a new office tower, the challenge is finding available land at the right price and how to provide parking for the tower. Thats the challenge.

Also Greensboro's urban core extends far beyond the central business district boundaries. It includes large historic neighborhoods that surround downtown, like Aycock, Fisher Park, College Hill, Westerwood. That urban core even extends up into Old Irving Park which is more on the northside of town. Old Irving park even has a nearby unique urban boutique retail village with french/New Orleans style architecture called State Street Station. It use to be a shopping village for textile workers in the 1920s and today its an upscale retail village with resturants and live jazz music on some evenings. Its the kind of place you'd expect to see in the central business district yet its about two miles north of downtown proper. Greensboro's urban core even extends as far west as Sunset Hills which borders West Wendover Ave near Friendly Shopping Center. Sunset Hills is nestled in between UNCG and Wendover Ave.

But a number of the homes in these old urban neighborhoods were built in the late 19th century. These neighborhoods connect to greenways, park spaces and gardens. This is a side of Greensboro some like to ignore and focus entirely on the airport area or West Wendover Ave. Some people look at Greensboro's skyline and say thats all there is to Greensboro's urban core.

Edited by cityboi
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Personally, I see a lot of potential in Greensboro, like we all do. Though this has to be realized by the people in charge of things (the mayor, city-council, county commissioners, DGI, etc.). Greensboro has decided that its new major is going to be "aerotropolis" with a minor in manufacturing and logistics. :blink: As we've already said, these types of industries locate in lowrise complexes where you can put up a cheap building for a low amount. I'd be willing to bet that there are twice as many employees along the 68 stretch than there are in downtown. Greensboro (or posters on this board) wants a dense skyline and manufacturing facilities. In my opinion, you can't have both unless you have corporate headquarters of companies that require a central location and have a strong presence in the city. If you want to be an "aerotropolis", then you're going to have to come to the realization that these companies do not locate in downtown, but near an airport (hence "aero"). Somehow, I'm getting that feeling from local Guilford County business leaders...

These leaders, in my opinion, have their heads in their asses. The transportation/logistics industry is very competitive with a few major known hubs, Charlotte and Atlanta, located very close to the Triad. This seems like quite a gamble if you ask me. If they want a vibrant urban core, DON'T ATTRACT THESE COMPANIES! I don't know how I can say it simpler. We're all desperate for jobs. We were once the manufacturing center for the country, if not the world, when it came to textiles, furniture, and cigarettes. But, this vision of becoming a logistics hub seems like nothing more than nostalgia by good 'ole boy leaders. The past is the past, move on already. Greensboro needs fresh leadership from a younger generation to really turn this city around and put it on a stable path towards the future.

Personally, I'm not fond of lowrise crap that rapes our land; however that's my opinion. You may like it, and that is okay. Just because Greensboro is building a new shopping center or a subdivision doesn't mean I'm going to get out on Wendover with some pom-poms. I hate to be blunt like this, but that is my current attitude towards this city. I am just as critical, if not more, of my own city when it comes to building materials and land-use. One only has to know about the bad blood that I have with a local developer because of my harsh inner critic. For the record, I don't like how Greensboro has developed. I get sick to my stomach when I travel from 68 to MLK Drive/421. The decaying areas in between are the result of spreading out too far and not maintaining good infrastructure/planning policies. Retail centers have shifted more times then I can count on my two hands. That may be a little bit exaggerated, but there is some truth to it.

I dont think it has to be either or. Greensboro can become an aerotropolis and still have a strong urban core. I also dont think its a gamble for Greensboro, especially since Greensboro now ranks higher in logisitcs and distribution than Charlotte according to a few magezine rankings and the city continues to move up in the ranks. Its all about applying the same things that built Greensboro in the first place and making them apply to the 21st century for our younger generation. There is a reason Greensboro was nicknamed The Gate City. Being a major logistics center applies to any era and because of Greensboro's location, FedEx and its transportation infrastructure, its a sure bet. People also forget that Greensboro is a strong advocate of small business and start-up business development and supporting entrepreneurs. Thats one of the things Action Greensboro is working on and its a way to attract young proffesionals. BTW..Greensboro-based RF Micro devices, one of the world's leading companies in wireless technology and RF components supplier was at one time a small start-up. So there are initiatives going on in Greensboro that helps promote a brighter future for the city.

Not trying to turn this into a city vs city thread but I agree with Beany that a few say Greensboro has no hope in anything but being a warehouse city with strip shopping centers and a Girls Gone Wild downtown. They try to make it seem like its some super impossible feat to build a downtown skyscraper. The irony is that one is already under contruction. People are often quick to judge Greensboro as a suburban retail sprawl community, but to those from W-S who criticize Greensboro for it, Winston-Salem has its share of it too and I was quite surprised after driving through a few areas. I guess I was surprised because nobody talks about Winston's sprawl, its easy to forget Winston has these areas as well because you only hear about downtown and Old Salem. Bottom line, every city has its bad areas, you are not going to find a city that completely looks like Southside and Fisher Park in Greensboro, Ardmore or Old Salem. Outside of the downtown areas, ALL southern cities look alike so I dont think Greensboro should be singled out.

Its ok to talk about a city's negatives but I think it needs to be talked about in a constructive fashion. People should express ideas on how to improve the negatives instead of making negative comments just because they dont like a city. I can name a hand full of cities I dont like but I never talk down about them on these forums because its not constructive and it always ends in becoming a flaming war between cities.

Edited by cityboi
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Its ok to talk about a city's negatives but I think it needs to be talked about in a constructive fashion. People should express ideas on how to improve the negatives instead of making negative comments just because they dont like a city.

I think my comments on an earlier post were very positive on downtown Greensboro: "Lets be happy with what downtown is developing into and focus on continuing to promote it as the Triad"s main entertainment district, instead of a bunch of boring high rise office buildings that are lifeless after 5 and on weekends".

I am sorry you are so touchy on this subject. I am nor for or against any Triad city. I see good and bad in all 3 Triad cities. I have just presented the facts the way I see them. If it makes you feel better, there may be a high rise built in downtown Greensboro at some point. I get back with you on this in about 10 years. Until then keep dreaming.

Edited by triadguy37
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These leaders, in my opinion, have their heads in their asses. The transportation/logistics industry is very competitive with a few major known hubs, Charlotte and Atlanta, located very close to the Triad. This seems like quite a gamble if you ask me. If they want a vibrant urban core, DON'T ATTRACT THESE COMPANIES! I don't know how I can say it simpler. We're all desperate for jobs. We were once the manufacturing center for the country, if not the world, when it came to textiles, furniture, and cigarettes. But, this vision of becoming a logistics hub seems like nothing more than nostalgia by good 'ole boy leaders. The past is the past, move on already. Greensboro needs fresh leadership from a younger generation to really turn this city around and put it on a stable path towards the future.

I'd have to disagree. We still do make things in this country; it's just that we have to focus more on high-tech manufacturing. Look at the Greenville area which has industries based along I-85, yet it has a very vibrant urban core. As I've said before, the key here is diversification of the local economy, and transportation/logistics is a part of that.

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I have just presented the facts the way I see them. If it makes you feel better, there may be a high rise built in downtown Greensboro at some point. I get back with you on this in about 10 years. Until then keep dreaming.

What facts do you have that proves a large downtown office project or any high-rise project isnt around the corner for downtown Greensboro? Is it guess speculation? or info from sources? This is good, lets talk about it.

and for the record I believe a true well planned urban city isnt just about skyscrapers.

Edited by cityboi
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I dont think it has to be either or. Greensboro can become an aerotropolis and still have a strong urban core. I also dont think its a gamble for Greensboro, especially since Greensboro now ranks higher in logisitcs and distribution than Charlotte according to a few magezine rankings and the city continues to move up in the ranks. Its all about applying the same things that built Greensboro in the first place and making them apply to the 21st century for our younger generation. There is a reason Greensboro was nicknamed The Gate City. Being a major logistics center applies to any era and because of Greensboro's location, FedEx and its transportation infrastructure, its a sure bet. People also forget that Greensboro is a strong advocate of small business and start-up business development and supporting entrepreneurs. Thats one of the things Action Greensboro is working on and its a way to attract young proffesionals. BTW..Greensboro-based RF Micro devices, one of the world's leading companies in wireless technology and RF components supplier was at one time a small start-up. So there are initiatives going on in Greensboro that helps promote a brighter future for the city.

Not trying to turn this into a city vs city thread but I agree with Beany that a few say Greensboro has no hope in anything but being a warehouse city with strip shopping centers and a Girls Gone Wild downtown. They try to make it seem like its some super impossible feat to build a downtown skyscraper. The irony is that one is already under contruction. People are often quick to judge Greensboro as a suburban retail sprawl community, but to those from W-S who criticize Greensboro for it, Winston-Salem has its share of it too and I was quite surprised after driving through a few areas. I guess I was surprised because nobody talks about Winston's sprawl, its easy to forget Winston has these areas as well because you only hear about downtown and Old Salem. Bottom line, every city has its bad areas, you are not going to find a city that completely looks like Southside and Fisher Park in Greensboro, Ardmore or Old Salem. Outside of the downtown areas, ALL southern cities look alike so I dont think Greensboro should be singled out.

Its ok to talk about a city's negatives but I think it needs to be talked about in a constructive fashion. People should express ideas on how to improve the negatives instead of making negative comments just because they dont like a city. I can name a hand full of cities I dont like but I never talk down about them on these forums because its not constructive and it always ends in becoming a flaming war between cities.

It's not that I don't like Greensboro, it's that I am disappointed by the leadership in this city. I think a lot of us should take notice that tourists seriously think Greensboro is nothing more than a suburban wasteland. It's one thing if we're talking about it, but it's another if people from outside our area think that is what the city consists of.

People are often quick to judge Greensboro as a suburban retail sprawl community, but to those from W-S who criticize Greensboro for it, Winston-Salem has its share of it too

Now this is where an honest debate starts to go downhill. Our primary focus of this thread is Greensboro. If you feel the same way about Winston, don't hesitate to create a new topic.

I know many people who live in Greensboro's suburbs and the majority, if not all, of them work off of Piedmont Parkway. This area is in direct competition with downtown. Imagine if we took AmEx's offices and many other companies located there and moved them to downtown? The reasons you don't see a need for high-rise office space in downtown are because you don't have companies flocking here and the cost of land. Why is it that we don't have many companies moving to downtown? Answer: a cheaper and more competitive market lies to the west off of 68. I'm all for skyscrapers (as long as they are pedestrian friendly), but I'm wary of the after effects. Let's say Roy Caroll built a 30 story tower and signed AmEx as a lead tenant. Who will take their old space? Greensboro doesn't have a high turnover rate when it comes to office space.

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Let's say Roy Caroll built a 30 story tower and signed AmEx as a lead tenant. Who will take their old space? Greensboro doesn't have a high turnover rate when it comes to office space.

I know that this will make me look like I am against the future development of Greensboro but Greensboro has more commercial office space (and retail) than it will need in the next 5 to 10 years without a major economic shift to bring in a rush of businesses. At the end of 2007 Guilford County had an office vacancy rate around 19%, according to Karnes, and given the current economy I would say it hasn't gotten much lower. Adding to the already vacant office space isn't the answer to growing Greensboro's downtown. If only the city planners would stop allowing developers to throw up a new building every week and give some better incentives for developers who rehab existing buildings. This would certainly be a better starting block for continued growth in downtown Greensboro. Fix and fill what is existing then build new. Roy Carroll at least got that part right with rehabbing the Wachovia building into Center Pointe and he should look to continue that trend before throwing up a 40 story high rise that will sit at 60% occupancy for the next 10 years. We already have enough empty buildings.

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Greensboro needs fresh leadership from a younger generation to really turn this city around and put it on a stable path towards the future.

I would argue that the city is already on a stable path toward the future. Can it be better? Absolutely. But Greensboro is certainly not in some kind of serious decline. Much of the struggles Greensboro has been experiencing over the last 10 years are not unlike what cities all over the country have been experiencing. Honda Jet, Mack Trucks, FedEx, RF Micro, Lenovo, Replacements LTD, VF Corp, Lincoln Financial, Lorillard, Proctor & Gamble, Syngenta, Volvo, etc.... would not be here if it was such a bad place.

Personally, I'm not fond of lowrise crap that rapes our land; however that's my opinion. You may like it, and that is okay. Just because Greensboro is building a new shopping center or a subdivision doesn't mean I'm going to get out on Wendover with some pom-poms.

I don't recall anyone on here waving pom-poms over subdivisions and shopping centers. I believe we were talking about an office tower in downtown Greesboro. That certainly should be urban enough, but yet that is criticized for being some never-going-to-happen in this decade, pie-in-the-sky dream.

I get sick to my stomach when I travel from 68 to MLK Drive/421.

Well there is your problem right there... Too many people judge Greensboro based on what they see from the interstate. One could say the same thing if they rode down Interstate 40 in W-S passing by suburban shopping centers, but we know W-S as so much more than that. The truth is we live in a mostly democratic, capitalistic country. There are laws in place which attempt to govern growth however they fortunately are not so strict owners of property are completely restricted by what they can do with their land. Many people will argue the laws are too strict and people are sacrificing their liberties by being told what they can and cant do now. The point is, and this could certainly go into a lenghty discussion, mananging growth patterns and types of development is not as easy as some want to think. The market mostly determines the types of development we see and where. Yes, planning departments and city councils try to manipulate it but if they try to dictate it there will be a high cost to pay in loss of liberties and strangling of growth. Idealism works both ways. Those who focus on the good things that are happening--although not perfect, and those who are caught up in a utopian world of idealized urbanity which will likely never happen. Either way people are focusing on some ideal. Personally if I'm going to be guilty of something, I would rather be guilty of being too positive and optimistic. I find it much healthier and makes me happier. But it is good to hear the negatives, so I do not mean everyone should be positive. Just, it is good for there to be a balance between the glass half full and glass half empty folks. On my part I try to offer up opportunistic arguments.

Greensboro downtown is small compared to some other cities, however the urban core of the city is much larger than many realize. There are many old sections of town which surround the city center which feature beautiful, old homes, sidewalks, parks and yes businesses. Many people do work near the airport. It is a great area for businesses. Being close to the airport you certainly do not want a bunch of houses out there. But there are also many, many people who work in other parts of the city. I work in I.T. and have held two separate jobs in office buildings that were neither downtown nor anywhere near the airport. There are business and employment centers all over town.

On a side note, here is a little business news which may or may not have been lifted up. Nothing major but just a little example that good things do happen in greensboro: Greensboro manufacturing plant expands. What is interesting to me about this is this is a manufacturing company developing 21st century technology. Maybe an up and comer?...

I believe Greensboro and the Triad can target logistics and distribution companies while still seeing growth in other sectors of business. I think growth in one sector has positive impacts on other sectors. I do not believe its a one thing investment. Leaders can continue to go after companies in all sectors whether they call themselves an aerotropolis or not. There are leaders who are wanting to market the areas strength in that area, but I do not think that precludes going after other sectors as they have always done.

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Well here is some good news for downtown Greensboro. A new study suggests that downtown is ripe for as much as 300,000 square feet of retail. As downtown expands on its residential and entertainment options, there is a demand for more retail in the center-city. The article also mentions that downtown Greensboro has high office occupancy rates which is probabally a reason Roy Carroll is proposing to build an office tower at some point. When you look at the facts and figures, things dont seem so much like pie in the sky afterall. But the study suggest setting goals and making a plan on how to develope more retail in the central business district.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08..._sales_untapped

Edited by cityboi
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Well here is some good news for downtown Greensboro. A new study suggests that downtown is ripe for as much as 300,000 square feet of retail. As downtown expands on its residential and entertainment options, there is a demand for more retail in the center-city. The article also mentions that downtown Greensboro has high office occupancy rates which is probabally a reason Roy Carroll is proposing to build an office tower at some point. When you look at the facts and figures, things dont seem so much like pie in the sky afterall. But the study suggest setting goals and making a plan on how to develope more retail in the central business district.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08..._sales_untapped

Yep. Thanks for posting that. I read that too. It is encouraging.

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I saw this on the Fox8 news Friday night that downtown could support 300,000 sf of retail shopping. That Ed Wolverton is a real go getter. I loved it when he said the days of downtown being able to recruit a Nordstroms or a Macy are long gone. Really shows what kind of big thinkers we have in charge. We need someone in charge like Citiboi. I would like to see a Target, Harris Teeter, Lowes or Home Depot and definitely some hip clothing shops like maybe a Gap or Banana Republic. The Kress building where the former Rum Runners was located is definitely upsale enough for a nice department store. Add at least 4 or 5 high rises that are taller than 19 or 20 stories so we can catch up with Winston.

Edited by triadguy37
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^ Elm Street has every bit the potential to be as successful retail-wise as King Street in Charleston.

If only we had the income around downtown to support such a retail environment. Average Household income within 1 mile of Elm Street is about $38,000 while Charleston is around $81,000 within 1 mile of King Street according to SRC. If Greensboro wants to grow retail downtown they should start by encouraging the existing businesses to stay open past 6PM. I don't know many people that have time to shop during the day from 10AM to 6PM (the hours of most of these retail stores). As it stands right now, aside from a few art galleries that host functions at night once in a while, downtown is an entertainment destination for dining and drinking past 6PM.

These stores would benefit greatly by being open when the bulk of people with disposable incomes are downtown which is from about 6PM to 10PM. If there was a stronger contingent of people with disposable income living downtown this would be different but they need to adapt until that happens. Judging from the empty store fronts downtown I'd say few are weathering the storm. Hopefully Center Pointe will help bring some disposable income to downtown but it will take many more projects like that to bring in a stable base for long term, national chain retailers.

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another article on retail in downtown Greensboro. Retail is key because it just may very way speed up attracting a grocery store downtown.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08...in_citys_center

I'm very suprised downtown Greensboro still doesn't have a true grocery store seeing how downtown Greenville, SC has two currently with two-three more in the works. :mellow: I don't agree with Mr. Hunter's assessment at all about not wanting an anchor tenant downtown. Something along the lines of Borders or Barnes and Noble would be nothing short of awesome and wonderful for any downtown.

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If only we had the income around downtown to support such a retail environment. Average Household income within 1 mile of Elm Street is about $38,000 while Charleston is around $81,000 within 1 mile of King Street according to SRC. If Greensboro wants to grow retail downtown they should start by encouraging the existing businesses to stay open past 6PM. I don't know many people that have time to shop during the day from 10AM to 6PM (the hours of most of these retail stores). As it stands right now, aside from a few art galleries that host functions at night once in a while, downtown is an entertainment destination for dining and drinking past 6PM.

These stores would benefit greatly by being open when the bulk of people with disposable incomes are downtown which is from about 6PM to 10PM. If there was a stronger contingent of people with disposable income living downtown this would be different but they need to adapt until that happens. Judging from the empty store fronts downtown I'd say few are weathering the storm. Hopefully Center Pointe will help bring some disposable income to downtown but it will take many more projects like that to bring in a stable base for long term, national chain retailers.

more upscale residential is also key. We are now seeing this but the downtown area needs to have a whole lot more.

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I'm very suprised downtown Greensboro still doesn't have a true grocery store seeing how downtown Greenville, SC has two currently with two-three more in the works. :mellow: I don't agree with Mr. Hunter's assessment at all about not wanting an anchor tenant downtown. Something along the lines of Borders or Barnes and Noble would be nothing short of awesome and wonderful for any downtown.

I agree. The truth of the matter is that most people want to shop at the big national chains. Unfortunately downtown is nowhere near getting a big chain retail anchor but it sure would be nice to shop at an urban Target.

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Growing retail in DT Greensboro is a good sign that its revitalization efforts are succeeding and maturing. It would be wise to move the farmers market even closer to the core in order to attract a grocery store.

There actually is talk of moving the farmers market downtown. The residents of the Aycock Neighborhood might not support that move because the farmers market is in there neighborhood. An ideal site would be near the depot in my opinion.

Here is some other news about redevelopment on the Church Street corridor downtown. Some recommendations include expanding the cultural district, an IMAX theater, a science/technology museum and a performing arts space as well as residential and commercial development. Most of downtown's activity is centered around Elm Street. This goal is for downtown to become vibrant throughout.

Church Street next target for downtown vision

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08...downtown_vision

Edited by cityboi
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parkingdeck.jpg

The city of Greensboro is looking into building a new parking deck in preparation for future development. Certainly lack of parking on some sites is a big stumbling block for large scale projects including high-rises. By having available parking, an office tower or a big hotel could easily become a reality. Maybe city leaders know something we dont know yet ;) But hopefully a new deck will include street level retail similar to the Bellemeade deck.

http://www.news-record.com/content/2008/08...ck_for_downtown

Edited by cityboi
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With so much of downtown Greenboro devoted to parking already, adding still more will make it indistinguishable from a suburban office park. When I get off the train on Washington Street, I see i front of me a sea of surface lots. There is much to like about Greensboro, but it will never become a real city until it gets beyond its obsession with cars.

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With so much of downtown Greenboro devoted to parking already, adding still more will make it indistinguishable from a suburban office park. When I get off the train on Washington Street, I see i front of me a sea of surface lots. There is much to like about Greensboro, but it will never become a real city until it gets beyond its obsession with cars.

As I look around downtown Greensboro, I see a ton of wasted space that is currently used as parking lots. As the downtown district grows, there will no doubt be a great need for more parking. This issue all about land management. Parking decks are more efficent as you can stack cars vertical. This is a great problem for Greensboro to have! We are growning! We only have so much land downtown. Our future success or failure will be partly related to how well we manage the land we have left. I know our history has not been to build vertical with our offices and parking. But it is the smart thing to do for our future success.

Ask any developer what the number one problem is when trying to get a company to locate offices downtrown. It is parking. There is a tremendous cost involved when a developer has to build both a parking deck and office tower. I do not know the cost of office space. However, I do know that the average cost of one parking space in a deck is about $15,000. In most cities there is a working relationship between the city and developer. The city absorbs the cost of the parking and the developer builds the office space. It is a smart way to do business!

I only give our city leaders credit when they earn it. But I've got to say I applaud our city leader on stepping up to the plate on this one. :thumbsup:

Edited by luvdowntowngso
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  • 3 months later...

Mellow Mushroom will be opening in downtown Greensboro on December 22nd. Also Southside's first clothing store has opened. Its in one the live-work units on MLK Jr Blvd next to Manny's Cafe. The clothing store is called "Velicious Equenzi"

Edited by cityboi
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