Downtown Greensboro Developments

[beyonce245]

The International Civil Rights Center & Museum in downtown Greensboro could be complete by Feb 1, 2010 in time for the 50th anniversary of the historic sit-ins. According to this article in the N&R, the museum is receiving $10 million in additional funding to finish construction. 9

The article appears to make the funding sound like a done deal. I hope thats the case. This stalled project has been a black eye for Greensboro for a while now and its completion is certainly welcomed.

[twincity]

Nothing should stop them from meeting that Feb 1 completion date! This is a very important project not only the city, but the country. I really hope it works out!

Was this on the wishlist?

[beyonce245]

Was this on the wishlist?

I don't know what wish list you're referring to. Is there another forum for a 2009 wishlist for the Triad? I can tell you personally that it was on my own wishlist. In fact, I wrote an email to the executive director of the museum a few months ago and she told me that they would be making a major announcement in 2009. I'm glad to see it turned out to be true. This project has the potential to bring national attention to Greensboro and further stimulate development downtown.

Of course, I'll reserve final judgment until the project is completed. But this is certainly a major step in that direction.

[luvdowntowngso]

Downtown advocates has always considered this project to be a major catalysis in the revitalization of downtown Greensboro. It's impact will be significant! I look forward to completion!

Edited January 9, 2009 by luvdowntowngso

[beyonce245]

The editorial staff at the News & Record weighed in today on the $3.6 million, 5-story mixed use building planned for S. Elm. The staff writes, "Even with a more modern facade and sharper angles, a new building on South Elm sure beats the empty space it replaces."

I agree. Read the rest here.

[beyonce245]

I also want to give a shout out to Roy Carroll. God bless him. Here's what he had to say about his downtown development plans back on Dec. 31st:

"the old North State Chevrolet site, which he wants to develop for mixed use, Carroll acknowledges it has stalled. But he insists the project eventually will move forward. In fact, he says, he is still actively looking for even more sites to purchase downtown because he predicts high growth there. Then he broaches the idea of a performing arts center in the center city, which he believes the city should revisit since voters, again, defeated the War Memorial Auditorium bonds on Nov. 4. "We are still bullish on downtown," he says."

Read the full piece here.

Hopefully, Once the first residents move into Center Pointe, the remainder of the units will be snapped up immediately and Roy will go on a downtown development binge, feeding off of cheaper labor and construction costs and land prices because of the economic downturn!

[cityboi]

Roy Carroll is quickly becoming the Joe Koury of downtown Greensboro.

Edited January 13, 2009 by cityboi

[triadguy37]

Hopefully, Once the first residents move into Center Pointe, the remainder of the units will be snapped up immediately and Roy will go on a downtown development binge, feeding off of cheaper labor and construction costs and land prices because of the economic downturn!

I am not sure who is going to be able to afford these condos. Did you know that the Home Owners Association fees are .30 cents a square foot a month. So if you have a 1000 sf condo you will be paying $300.00 a month in HOA dues. I was told that this covered parking, water, insurance and window washing. If you have a 1200 sf unit you will be paying $360.00 a month. I don't that many people who can afford these kind of prices in Greensboro. I think these remaining units will be on the market a long time.

[suburban george3]

I am not sure who is going to be able to afford these condos. Did you know that the Home Owners Association fees are .30 cents a square foot a month. So if you have a 1000 sf condo you will be paying $300.00 a month in HOA dues. I was told that this covered parking, water, insurance and window washing. If you have a 1200 sf unit you will be paying $360.00 a month. I don't that many people who can afford these kind of prices in Greensboro. I think these remaining units will be on the market a long time.

Let's not forget that HOA's can have special assessments for building upkeep or improvements. (This happened recently to the OLD YMCA in Winston, they had a special assessment to remortar the bricks on the building.) I would be more concerned with potential special assessments than the monthly HOA dues in a highrise building.

[beyonce245]

I am not sure who is going to be able to afford these condos. Did you know that the Home Owners Association fees are .30 cents a square foot a month. So if you have a 1000 sf condo you will be paying $300.00 a month in HOA dues. I was told that this covered parking, water, insurance and window washing. If you have a 1200 sf unit you will be paying $360.00 a month. I don't that many people who can afford these kind of prices in Greensboro. I think these remaining units will be on the market a long time.

I'm inclined to believe that if someone can afford a 1200 sf condo in this building, that HOA fees are probably not a concern. And if the HOA fees cover everything triadguy says, it doesn't sound like that bad of deal. I imagine the HOA fees will also go towards paying for the doorman.

[beyonce245]

In other news, the N&R is reporting that the City Council and the Guilford County Commissioners plan to jointly work together in creating a development guide for downtown Greensboro. Action Greensboro has offered to pay $150,000 for the study.

Its good to finally see cooperation concerning downtown.

This article from today's Biz Journal talks more about the downtown development guide. It goes further though, and talks more extensively about action Greensboro's other plans, including securing the rest of the funding for the International Civil Rights Museum to have it open by Feb 1 next year. The article says that Action Greensboro also plans to lobby for UNCG's proposed pharmacy school...including "perhaps locating it downtown."

A downtown pharmacy school indeed!

[triadguy37]

I'm inclined to believe that if someone can afford a 1200 sf condo in this building, that HOA fees are probably not a concern. And if the HOA fees cover everything triadguy says, it doesn't sound like that bad of deal. I imagine the HOA fees will also go towards paying for the doorman.

I can afford it, but there is not enough in downtown Greensboro that would prompt me to consider paying those kind of dues. Now if downtown offered everything I needed including retail, a grocery store, a hardware store, pharmacy etc, I might consider it, but not for a bunch of bars and clubs. When downtown becomes more balanced with high paying Jobs being #1, then investing in this kind of building might be good, but I would not consider investing in this kind of property after living in downtown for the past 5 years, I don't see it moving very fast, infact it has dropped off tremendouly in the past 5 years. Most of the restaurants excluding Natty Green's and Mellow Mushroom, are struggling. And retail has never been good.

[beyonce245]

I can afford it, but there is not enough in downtown Greensboro that would prompt me to consider paying those kind of dues. Now if downtown offered everything I needed including retail, a grocery store, a hardware store, pharmacy etc, I might consider it, but not for a bunch of bars and clubs. When downtown becomes more balanced with high paying Jobs being #1, then investing in this kind of building might be good, but I would not consider investing in this kind of property after living in downtown for the past 5 years, I don't see it moving very fast, infact it has dropped off tremendouly in the past 5 years. Most of the restaurants excluding Natty Green's and Mellow Mushroom, are struggling. And retail has never been good.

Where do you live in DT if you don't mind me asking? If you don't feel comfortable disclosing that kind of information, I completely understand. I agree that downtown needs to attract more businesses and more workers. And I further agree that downtown needs a grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy and the like? But what does it take to attract those kinds of businesses to downtown? Residents, of course.

And while you yourself may not personally find investing in Center Pointe a worthwhile venture, obviously many people have if the building is more than 50% pre-sold.

In terms of restaurants, I think Undercurrent, Liberty Oak and Fincastles, just to name a few, would dispute your assertion that downtown restaurants are struggling. And if there was not a market for more restaurants, Roy Carroll would make one a centerpiece of the ground floor retail space in his new building.

Downtown is more than just bars and clubs, as evidenced by Triad Stage and Carolina Theatre, the International Civil Rights Museum, the Ballpark, numerous salons and art galleries and event locations like Elm Street Center. The list goes on.

And what exactly has dropped off in the past five years? You weren't very clear about that. I hope you're not talking about development, because the very fact that this discussion was brought about over Center Pointe contradicts your point. In the last five years, Center Pointe, Arbor House, CityView, 600 Bellemeade, and the no name building on Washington with the Wachovia beside it, have all come on line, just to name a few. That doesn't include non-residential investment like the ballpark, and the Carolina Bank headquarters. Just last week, plans were announced for a new $3.6 million, 5-story mixed use on S. Elm.

Long story short, I too would like development in downtown Greensboro to speed up. But while isn't moving at pace of other center cities, for example charlotte, it has nevertheless made great strides in development. To say that it has dropped off "tremendously" flies in the face of everything we've seen and heard from developers, local leaders, and the media alike.

Your thoughts?

[triadguy37]

Where do you live in DT if you don't mind me asking? If you don't feel comfortable disclosing that kind of information, I completely understand. I agree that downtown needs to attract more businesses and more workers. And I further agree that downtown needs a grocery store, hardware store, pharmacy and the like? But what does it take to attract those kinds of businesses to downtown? Residents, of course.

And while you yourself may not personally find investing in Center Pointe a worthwhile venture, obviously many people have if the building is more than 50% pre-sold.

In terms of restaurants, I think Undercurrent, Liberty Oak and Fincastles, just to name a few, would dispute your assertion that downtown restaurants are struggling. And if there was not a market for more restaurants, Roy Carroll would make one a centerpiece of the ground floor retail space in his new building.

Downtown is more than just bars and clubs, as evidenced by Triad Stage and Carolina Theatre, the International Civil Rights Museum, the Ballpark, numerous salons and art galleries and event locations like Elm Street Center. The list goes on.

And what exactly has dropped off in the past five years? You weren't very clear about that. I hope you're not talking about development, because the very fact that this discussion was brought about over Center Pointe contradicts your point. In the last five years, Center Pointe, Arbor House, CityView, 600 Bellemeade, and the no name building on Washington with the Wachovia beside it, have all come on line, just to name a few. That doesn't include non-residential investment like the ballpark, and the Carolina Bank headquarters. Just last week, plans were announced for a new $3.6 million, 5-story mixed use on S. Elm.

Long story short, I too would like development in downtown Greensboro to speed up. But while isn't moving at pace of other center cities, for example charlotte, it has nevertheless made great strides in development. To say that it has dropped off "tremendously" flies in the face of everything we've seen and heard from developers, local leaders, and the media alike.

I lived in Southside on MLK for 3 years and sold just before the real estate crisis. I now live behind Natty Greene's in an apartment.

They have said that this building has been 50% sold for about 2 years. I guess they haven't had any new sales in 2 years. I have checked on this building several times and I have recently found out the banks are not loaning money on condo buidings unless they are 51% sold out. With that said, lets hope they are 51% sold out or they might have a problem getting a mortgage.

Having lived downtown for 5 years now, I have made many friends and know a lot of restaurant owners personally. The ones you mentioned are doing ok, but Fincastles almost closed last fall due to issues with the building owner. Metro is getting ready to close soon and most restaurants owners will tell you there business is not that great.

All of those places are nice, but don't bring in the volume of people that the bars and clubs bring.

All of those are great additions.

The amount of people visiting downtown has dropped off tremendously over the past 5 years. It is not as poplar as it was 5 years ago.

One thing that I have observed is that news media seems to play up how poplar downtown is. It is almost like they are speaking it into being, calling things that are not as though they were. I am not saying this is a bad thing, but I think alot of it is hype and just done to get people to come downtown, or interested in downtown. I have said before and I will say it again. I think downtown Greensboro has a great future in the entertainment venue, but I seriously doubt it will grow much beyond that. It will be a place where club goers and empty nesters like to live because of a community feel, but as far as downtown attracting new towers and high paying jobs, I don't see it happening. The next area that will see job growth in Greensboro will be in and around the airport.

[Jones_]

I love studying other downtowns to see what lesson I can glean. Living in downtown Raleigh I thought I'd pass along some of our lessons..the discussion about Center Pointe prompted me. I also happen to be the president of my HOA in a historic condominium building. Downtown Raleigh developers quickly went after and tapped out the upper middle class market. They claimed this was the only feasible market based on land prices and construction costs. So while we have about 10 condo buildings totaling 1500ish new residents, we never got the critical mass for serious retail. A small grocery store opened as part of the boom, but has since closed (a big grocery store and poor siting of this store are partly to blame too). We have three downtown pharmacies....two have been there years and don't jump out, the only chain is a CVS that closes at 5pm on weekdays and noon on Saturday. Retail is limited mostly to consignment shops (furniture and clothes...nice ones though). Restaurants number several dozen, and adding bars might give us a total of 100 of both. There are quite a number of folks out and about each evening, but we are a long way from 'critical mass". Most of our new downtown residents moved for the particular buildings they liked and the general atmosphere of urban fabric..amenities or not. Many people even waited to buy until a project was proposed that fit their personal tastes just right. There are mostly young singles, young childless couples, divorced singles, and those near to or actually retired. Pretty much everything except child raising families though actually you see some strollers now and then. I don't think Greensboro suffers from the same high land prices downtown that Raleigh does. That is good. The next few projects should be middle class though...if too many of these expensive projects try to come along and pay top dollar for the prime corner property, then every property owner downtown will hold out until they too, get that top dollar offer. We are now kind of stuck because we leap-frogged over the bread and butter population(incomes of 40-60k) that would be able to support commercial activity beyond restaurants and bars. Greensboro has some great historic fabric left. Keep it. Revitalized downtowns have commercials cores centered in historic areas. We struggle with where would retail go, because there are few storefronts left. Modern mixed use buildings tend to plop a few commercial spaces here and there, but you need a concentration of spots(I won't even get into building character). I really like Greensboro. I look forward to visiting and checking things out as downtown growth continues.

[krazeeboi]

I have said before and I will say it again. I think downtown Greensboro has a great future in the entertainment venue, but I seriously doubt it will grow much beyond that. It will be a place where club goers and empty nesters like to live because of a community feel, but as far as downtown attracting new towers and high paying jobs, I don't see it happening. The next area that will see job growth in Greensboro will be in and around the airport.

And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. The cities today that have dense urban cores and mature urban fabrics didn't develop them primarily due to high growth in "white collar" professions; meatpacking facilities, steel plants, manufacturing facilities, etc. are what drove their growth and development. They had tightly knit neighborhoods in and around downtown served by transit. Greensboro can focus on things that contribute to a higher quality of life downtown and develop a superb urban core. Any white-collar, high-paying jobs that chose to locate downtown will definitely be welcome, but there doesn't necessarily have to be an abundance of them to have a well-rounded downtown (see Asheville, Greenville, Charleston, Chattanooga, etc.).

[beyonce245]

The next few projects should be middle class though...if too many of these expensive projects try to come along and pay top dollar for the prime corner property, then every property owner downtown will hold out until they too, get that top dollar offer. We are now kind of stuck because we leap-frogged over the bread and butter population(incomes of 40-60k) that would be able to support commercial activity beyond restaurants and bars.

Thank you for you insight and welcome to the Triad forums. I wholeheartedly agree that future properties in downtown Greensboro should incorporate less expensive options. We are fortunate in that one of the most recently completed projects was CityView, a 240 unit apartment complex in the Southside neighborhood in downtown. Apartments and lower priced condos certainly open up downtown's pool of potential residents.

In terms of Center Pointe, it is undoubtedly an upscale luxury property, certainly not intended for the majority of residents. Although, I will say they have some units that begin at below $200k, I think around $170K or so. But these are probably the shoe box sized units. The reason its gotten so much attention because it was a $40 million, multi-year rehab.

I actually live in Durham for law school (I prefer to frequent the Triad boards because I grew up there and went to Undergrad there and frankly I have never really connected with the Triangle) and I've been to dt raleigh many times. Its nice and all the recent developments are certainly noticeable. But I know what you talked about in terms of critical mass. The attractions in raleigh are more spread out whereas that core of most downtown Greensboro restaurants/bars/clubs/retailers are located on or around Elm Street. Don't even try driving on Elm on weekend nights. Cars crawl at a glacial pace. Hopefully in the next few years, most of the usable space remaining on Elm will be rented/repurposed and more development will begin extending outward. And of course, a grocery store would be nice. I don't think anyone expects to get (or wants) a massive harris teeter type grocer. Something smaller, strategically located and locally owned with product and hours tailored to downtown's needs will do just fine.

Thanks for the comments.

And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. The cities today that have dense urban cores and mature urban fabrics didn't develop them primarily due to high growth in "white collar" professions; meatpacking facilities, steel plants, manufacturing facilities, etc. are what drove their growth and development. They had tightly knit neighborhoods in and around downtown served by transit. Greensboro can focus on things that contribute to a higher quality of life downtown and develop a superb urban core. Any white-collar, high-paying jobs that chose to locate downtown will definitely be welcome, but there doesn't necessarily have to be an abundance of them to have a well-rounded downtown (see Asheville, Greenville, Charleston, Chattanooga, etc.).

My thoughts exactly. Well Said!

[cityboi]

And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. The cities today that have dense urban cores and mature urban fabrics didn't develop them primarily due to high growth in "white collar" professions; meatpacking facilities, steel plants, manufacturing facilities, etc. are what drove their growth and development. They had tightly knit neighborhoods in and around downtown served by transit. Greensboro can focus on things that contribute to a higher quality of life downtown and develop a superb urban core. Any white-collar, high-paying jobs that chose to locate downtown will definitely be welcome, but there doesn't necessarily have to be an abundance of them to have a well-rounded downtown (see Asheville, Greenville, Charleston, Chattanooga, etc.).

Well said. There is not just one template for what a downtown should become. More white collar jobs will come to DT Greensboro. In fact DGI is currently working on an incentive plan similar to what they have done to attract residential development downtown. The goal of DGI is to make office development more financially feasible for companies to build downtown as oppose to the suburbs. All that would be great but if it never happens, it still ok. Downtown Greensboro still has alot of other things going for it. But to say there wont be any office development is not realistic. Every decade there is at least one or several downtown office projects. Last year a new bank headquarters opened in DT Greensboro. Certainly office development is not at the same rate as uptown Charlotte but there will always be some office development. Sometimes a steady slow growth pays off in the long run.

Edited January 15, 2009 by cityboi

[beyonce245]

Today's Biz Journal offers a profile on the state of downtown development during the recession. The report notes, not surprisingly, that many projects have been put on hold because they can't secure lending.

One bright spot: The article says the owner of the miller furniture building on Elm has secured $1.8 million to move forward with his plans to convert the building into apartments.

Read the whole story here.

[beyonce245]

Today's N&R reports that Downtown Greensboro, Inc. will recommend that the city council approve the incentives for the previously mentioned 5-story, $3.6 million mixed used that is being proposed for S. Elm.

The article notes that the incentives were originally supposed to be taken up by the city council on Jan 6, but the developer asked for a delay so that they could address concerns with the design. The changes made to the design include more brick covering, reducing the size of some windows, and adding architectural detail above the windows.

Its nice that the developer is willing to work with the community to address design concerns and isn't simply trying to railroad the project through. While I liked the original design, working with downtown leaders can only help smooth over concerns.

Read the article here.

[cityboi]

I imagine the city will support this.

[Jones_]

And you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. The cities today that have dense urban cores and mature urban fabrics didn't develop them primarily due to high growth in "white collar" professions; meatpacking facilities, steel plants, manufacturing facilities, etc. are what drove their growth and development. They had tightly knit neighborhoods in and around downtown served by transit. Greensboro can focus on things that contribute to a higher quality of life downtown and develop a superb urban core. Any white-collar, high-paying jobs that chose to locate downtown will definitely be welcome, but there doesn't necessarily have to be an abundance of them to have a well-rounded downtown (see Asheville, Greenville, Charleston, Chattanooga, etc.).

This, to me anyway, is the preferable path of growth. A downtown of nothing but white collar jobs prices out the majority of folks who might otherwise want to live in a downtown, and as you infer Krazeeboi, is a narrow focus for an area that in a city that has much more potential than to simply serve as a centrally located office park. I see a lot of booster groups that focus mostly on bringing in corporate headquarters, stadiums and still seem to be stuck on tear-down style renewal of urban cores.

[beyonce245]

Article in today's N&R about an art gallery closing in downtown.

In other news, the city council is slated to decide tonight whether or not to award the request incentives for the aforementioned $3.6 million, 5-story mixed use proposed for S. Elm. Keep a lookout for a decision in the N&R sometime tonight or tomorrow.

[triadguy37]

So far downtown has lost 2 art gallerys, minj grill, and according to 99 blocks a popular night spot will be closing soon. I wonder if it is ChurchHills. I heard they were not doing good. The Metro is also closing soon. Hopefully downtown want turn into another ghost town before this recession is over. But so far it don't look good.

[beyonce245]

I watched the city council meeting tonight concerning the $100k incentives for the proposed mixed use on S. Elm. After the vote failed, the council agreed to readdress the issue at their next council meeting.

It failed because their were a few cranky downtown business owners who said that it wouldn't be fair for this builder to get parking spots when they had tried for years to do the same thing. And I personally agree. However, these business owners also didn't build a $3.6 million project downtown.

I don't know why the two topics (the development and parking) were even lumped together to begin with. This project will only take away 4 parking spots downtown, but even if it hadn't, those 4 spots alone aren't going to solve the parking problems downtown.

Ugh...that council meeting was the most pathetic showing of leadership...or lack thereof, I have seen in a longtime.

I hope they have a solution at the next meeting.