Capital Area Transit (CAT) Bus System

[ChiefJoJo]

Welcome to the forum! With respect to the express buses, TTA is working on several scenarios that would add express service throughout the Triangle. Of course adding significant new service will cost the taxpayers money. TTA is exploring $5, $10, and $15M expansion plans.

In other news, what do you know, but it turns out that there actually isn't a safety issue with CAT buses. I guess the shopping center GMs can try another theory, or they could simply be honest and say they want to keep out minority & low-income patrons and workers.

[Jones_]

Not sure if this belongs here or in the traffic thread

car registration fee to pay for more buses......I am almost stunned, and maybe afraid to read the WRAL comments on this.....

[DPK]

The WRAL comments aren't pretty, I just skimmed through them all. On the one hand, I have used the CAT system quite a few times. I was in a wreck earlier this year and I had to use the bus to get to-from my apartment and NCSU for a few weeks until my vehicle was out of the shop. The service is pretty reliable, I just hated running on someone elses schedule. I can understand the need however so I would pay a tax increase if it was presented to me.

The CAT system does scale it's route hours depending on the time of day. It comes more frequently in the morning to take people to work/school and also around the get off from work hours. Any other time of day the bus usually comes about once an hour on a route. From what I have experienced however was that even in the areas I had to take the bus in (Hillsborough Street, Cameron Village, 5 Points) that you would expect a high rider rate, the most people I have ever seen on a CAT bus is about 25% capacity.

What needs to be done is to start scrapping these big buses because they aren't needed for our current capacity. Replace these buses with vehicles that can carry a slightly smaller capacity, run off bio-diesel (see: NCSU Wolfline), and are classy (see: Raleigh Trolley-ish). Now I'm not saying go out and buy a bunch of diesel Raleigh Trolley's, but you get what I mean.

[Jones_]

Route 1, appropriately Capital Blvd, is completely full during morning and afternoon rush. Funny there are few benches on only one shelter I can think of on the whole route (Brentwood Texaco). There are so many working class jobs on that route I think it could support a bus every 15 minutes during rush. I obviously use it some, and would more so but the 30 minute window either puts me to work way early or slightly late, neither much fun in a white collar job.

[JDC]

Those comments on the WRAL are pretty nasty indeed...

... and do not, and i mean "DO NOT" establish a connection to durham, with the exception of the RTP.

they could triple the amount I have to pay for my car, i will never get on one of those buses.

STOP taxing us!!! buying more buses isn't going to make people ride them and STOP trying to force us to.

Oddly enough, the person who posted this last comment said he'd ride the bus if it were more convenient. And increasing the number of buses won't do that?

Raleigh seems to have something of an identity crisis when it comes to transit. On one hand you've got an increasingly cosmopolitan city about the size of Cincinnati, Minneapolis or St. Louis, and on the other, a city of SUV-driving "fiscal conservatives" who believe transit aims to serve only criminals and the poor.

[cthayes75]

Buses or any other mass transit will only work when traffic get so bad that it is more convenient and timely to use than driving. (Or gas prices go to $5 a gallon).

Raleigh isn't there, and the most cost effective way to handle congestion is to build more capacity. And you need density for mass transit to work, again, none of that happening quickly.

And honestly, right now the City should be pumping more money into resurfacing roads than anything else. Anyone driven Glenwood Ave between Crabtree and Five Points lately?

[orulz]

Public transit use will only really grow when it is either more inconvenient or vastly more expensive to drive or own a car. That will only happen when minimum parking requirements go the way of the dodo. Public transit use is pretty decent at UNC and NCSU (not sure about Duke). Why? Because parking is expensive, and even then the spaces are far away.

If the state government keeps on building nearly one parking space in a parking deck for every employee, and the city of Raleigh continues to insist on parking ratios in the neighborhood of 1:1 for downtown residential and office developments, then transit use will not take off. The same goes for future TOD's: the city will have to significantly decrease minimum parking ratios, or else institute maximum parking ratios in order for the people to live there to actually use transit.

[ChiefJoJo]

Public transit use will only really grow when it is either more inconvenient or vastly more expensive to drive or own a car. That will only happen when minimum parking requirements go the way of the dodo. Public transit use is pretty decent at UNC and NCSU (not sure about Duke). Why? Because parking is expensive, and even then the spaces are far away.

If the state government keeps on building nearly one parking space in a parking deck for every employee, and the city of Raleigh continues to insist on parking ratios in the neighborhood of 1:1 for downtown residential and office developments, then transit use will not take off. The same goes for future TOD's: the city will have to significantly decrease minimum parking ratios, or else institute maximum parking ratios in order for the people to live there to actually use transit.

The City of Raleigh is looking at changing their parking regsas we speak. I'm optimistic that a future, more progressive council (this fall?) will be able to increase funding for CAT/TTA, etc.

[sax184]

from WRAL comments:

more welfare... all that the C.A.T. system does is enable garbage from southeast raleigh to commit their crimes everywhere else. Criminal Activity Transport, that is what C.A.T. stands for. Mayor, you can stop now.. same for the Crimeways, um i mean Greenways..

Good God. The fear and loathing in some of these comments is just off the charts. Nevertheless, there are a whole bunch of people out there who probably share this stigmatized and incorrect view of the people riding CAT. This fearful and angry worldview is another barrier to building a better bus system in Raleigh.

[vitaviatic]

Public transit use will only really grow when it is either more inconvenient or vastly more expensive to drive or own a car. That will only happen when minimum parking requirements go the way of the dodo. Public transit use is pretty decent at UNC and NCSU (not sure about Duke). Why? Because parking is expensive, and even then the spaces are far away.

If the state government keeps on building nearly one parking space in a parking deck for every employee, and the city of Raleigh continues to insist on parking ratios in the neighborhood of 1:1 for downtown residential and office developments, then transit use will not take off. The same goes for future TOD's: the city will have to significantly decrease minimum parking ratios, or else institute maximum parking ratios in order for the people to live there to actually use transit.

That's true to a point O, but it leaves out a lot of variables. Transit already wins the equation for downtown workers, and to a lesser extent, residents (I am sure that many of them will have parking fees like I did when I lived up high). It also wins the equation for NCSU students and faculty as well, if some of the partnerships and student/faculty discounts were incorporated into the scheme, as we pointed out in the TTA blog.

The problem with CAT is threefold.

One problem is equipment, the shortage thereof, and the lack of a proprietary funding mechanism for it. As long as CAT has to compete with streets for funding, guess which will win.

Second, and this has rightly gotten a lot of press lately, is the dearth of even basic ammenities for riders (benches, let alone shelters), and with the near tropical rainfall levels there, transit is a miserable (and unreliable when weather affects traffic) waiting experience for anyone -- an adventure usually taken on only by those who have no choice. Frankly I am at a loss to the origins of this particular problem in that there are creative ways to finance these things which have been proven over and over again in various cities.

The third, and I think the biggest by far, is the inhospitability of Raleigh's hub-and-spoke street system to a bus-oriented transit scheme. There could be some modifications that might shave a few minutes here and there, but the problem will still exist. For logistical reasons, CAT runs 70% of their routes downtown, when more than half of potential ridership is trying to go point-to-point out in the periphery somewhere. TTA takes up the slack for RTP commuters, but if you wanted to go, say from Northclift to, oh, Lake Boone Trail, to use the New Yorker moniker -- fuhgeddaboudit! On the one hand I could suggest multiple hubs around a diamond configuration (North Raleigh, DTR, Crabtree, Triangle Town Center), but the CAT fleet and workforce is way too small to absorb that kind of operation.

This is why I think rail would be a crucial sparkplug to getting transit in general throughout the Triangle out of the ditch. Trains don't waste 30 to 90 seconds at traffic lights. Trains don't normally get caught in traffic jams, even when there is a track failure (unless it's electrified). Trains hold way more people into a given area, and the load can be starbursted onto smaller vehicles making shorter runs.

Instead of this:

You progress to this:

(The thin lines represent buses and their corresponding volume and trip lengths, and the thick lines show the increase of both with trains featured on the main axis of the route structure. Note the "figure-8ing" around the train stations, and the much shorter trips with a workable hub for bus drivers.)

What you aim for is volume and speed. Without an off-road assist, buses can provide neither. Cost savings perhaps, but once the time curve flexes so far beyond that of the Ford Ranger, it becomes a no-sale. So all things considered, CAT has a ways to go in both providing the ammenities to persuade people to get onboard, and being able to construct a smooth-enough flowing route structure to make it feasible for the general public.

[cthayes75]

The problem that Raleigh has is that there isn't one "destination" for work and there is no density at the outlying spokes. Buses work better in Durham and Chapel Hill because of the magnet of the University and their proximity to everything else in town (other than malls).

And yes, for 90% of Raleigh, the buses have a negative perception of being only for lower-income minorities, pouring more money into running buses in North Raleigh isn't going to change that perception.

[Jones_]

Something like V's Diamond pattern is what I have always thought would be best without having to increase the budget too much. Three nodes, Crabtree, TTC, and Downtown, each serving a third of the city and having an express run to the other nodes. The express routes are obviously, Capital, 440, and Glenwood, with perhaps a midway stop on each express...say 5 points(Glenwood), Highwoods(Capital)....440 maybe would not get one...anyway, TTC would serve north of 440 and west to Six Forks, Crabtree from Six Forks to the Fair Grounds or so, and Downtown everything inside and south of the Beltline. The only problems might be if you say wanted to take a bus from Shelly Lake to Quail Corners, you have crossed the service boundary...but the current CAT routes already are bad for such a trip.....perhaps throw in dedicated cross spoke routes along Millbrook, Spring Forest/Lynn an Strickland/Leesville, that don't stop at the nodes.

[ncwebguy]

As "garbage from southeast raleigh that commits crime elsewhere" I am more than willing to pay extra for my car's registration.

That being said, is it too much to get better planning, maybe even outsourcing, future planning for CAT? I am tired of them running the transit system as if operated in Raleigh circa 1988 with a few route extensions here and there.

When I ride TTA, I get on at Moore Square station, and notice four routes -- Wake Med, Capital, Rex and Glenwood -- had the majority of the outbound ridership in the morning, with riders coming from the southeast raleigh buses. An express bus to Crabtree that would link to routes further north and east would make sense, but a local Capitol Blvd. bus might be more popular than an express to Triangle Town Center. Though TTC (or maybe Milbrook/Capitol) could serve as a good hub for Northeast Raleigh and maybe a connection to Wake Forest and points north.

I think there is something fishy in the "stops need x riders/day for a bench and y riders/day for a shelter" talk, especially in the Capitol corridor. That route could be prime for ad-supported shelters since there already is bilboards along that route from the Wake Forest Road to the 401 split. There is a shelter on Glenwood near Glenwood Towers, but I think that is the only one. Ad supported shelters in Glenwood South, Five Points, and the existing Crabtree hub should be easy to sell.

If they partnered with TTA and/or Wolfline, CTran, DATA, etc. when they order buses for their fleet, they might have negotiated a better deal. And maintenance costs could be reduced with fewer models to work on.

[vitaviatic]

As "garbage from southeast raleigh that commits crime elsewhere" I am more than willing to pay extra for my car's registration.

I think there is something fishy in the "stops need x riders/day for a bench and y riders/day for a shelter" talk, especially in the Capitol corridor. That route could be prime for ad-supported shelters since there already is bilboards along that route from the Wake Forest Road to the 401 split. There is a shelter on Glenwood near Glenwood Towers, but I think that is the only one. Ad supported shelters in Glenwood South, Five Points, and the existing Crabtree hub should be easy to sell.

If they partnered with TTA and/or Wolfline, CTran, DATA, etc. when they order buses for their fleet, they might have negotiated a better deal. And maintenance costs could be reduced with fewer models to work on.

That quote is unbelievable. I am not sure what the source of that quote is, but it is pretty troubling that people can still refer to each other as garbage in this day an age.

I don't know if there's anything fishy or not in the works. But I find it hard to believe that somebody at CAT or the city of Raleigh is not familiar with how this works. Below are examples of shelters and benches from the Denver area. They are all over DC and Florida too, so I highly doubt this is a revelation to many at the helm.

Shelter w/ 45

[serapis]

Wow vitaviatic. You really should move to Raleigh and run for office. You make about 100% more sense than these buffoons in office right now. You have a very convincing way of making sheeple understand, agree with ratioanale. You could probably get our light rail system back online.

[ncwebguy]

I wonder what the cost breakdown would be to equip shelters with a wifi-served flat screen monitor that showed "time for next bus" based on NC State's Wolfline TVS bus tracker with news and audio/video ads every 30 seconds or so. That would provide riders with info on which route the next bus serves and provides another revenue stream.

As for benches, most CAT bus stop benches are "flat", with no upright/"back" piece to them. This reduces the "ad exposure potential" to just the 4-5 inches of the bench itself, but benches could/should be upgraded to something people can sit comfortably on.

[vitaviatic]

I wonder what the cost breakdown would be to equip shelters with a wifi-served flat screen monitor that showed "time for next bus" based on NC State's Wolfline TVS bus tracker with news and audio/video ads every 30 seconds or so. That would provide riders with info on which route the next bus serves and provides another revenue stream.

As for benches, most CAT bus stop benches are "flat", with no upright/"back" piece to them. This reduces the "ad exposure potential" to just the 4-5 inches of the bench itself, but benches could/should be upgraded to something people can sit comfortably on.

A system like the one you're referring to is called NextBus, and it is a fee-based GPS tracker, and as you pointed out displays arrival times. However, in my experience (not all that recent, mind you) with NextBus was that it was inconsistent, especially on longer and/or congested routes. The program simply calculates run time from a given point, but doesn't have any way of factoring in traffic jams, signal delays, etc. If a bus gets stuck for three light cycles at a given light, a waiting passenger might see the display reading "8 minutes" for over 5 minutes. It seems to fuel the flames of an already bad situation. Normally it works well enough, but it is a bit of a luxury for a system w/o a stable source of funding, e.g., the Las Vegas Strip. (Or NCSU.)

I haven't really seen any plasma displays such as the one you're describing, even in older subways with enclosed stations. The problem with that particular concept is that the plasma screens are very susceptible to theft or vandalism, and way too expensive to replace -- especially if they are located in stations, PnRs, etc., w/o constant security. Once a commuter rail system gets put into place, the train itself would provide ample security just from its own enclosure, video surveillance, and conductors walking the train, plus the audience would be there in the numbers to make it a worthwhile financial investment (as well as the WiFi itself for public use).

As for benches, I've seen ultra-expensive, "sleek", modern metal benches that were worse than a rock to sit on, and I've seen wood pedestals that were quite comfy for a two- to three-minute respite. Generally, wood is easier on the derriere, not as hot in the summer or cold in the winter, and cheaper to replace. A little more susceptible to etched-in graffiti, and that sort of thing, but on the whole seems more cost-effective. Nothing fancy needed. Just something a foot-and-a-half to two feet off the ground.

And flat...

[ncwebguy]

NC State's sytem is a *locator* more than an esitmator. It can't predict the lights, but the bus has its own corridor on Hillsborough Street so that takes some chaos out of the system.

I don't know how secure a monitor could be made at the actual stop, but they could partner with a business across the street. Security would be provided by the cashier/manager and draw eyeballs to its location. They would no more subject to vandalisim than a shetler or bench.

As for benches, the current "flat" benches provides little visible ad space to pay for it. And letters to the N&O's editor against ad-supported benches don't help either. Would an "art bench" program work, similar to the Red Wolf Ramble? I'd like to see if there was any interest in it.

There are "art trash cans" in City Market now, but I'll be the first to admin I don't "get" them.

[vitaviatic]

Interestingly enough, on the TTA side of things, I had proposed that each commuter rail station be contracted out for a vending kiosk, whereby the tickets would be sold by an actual human being, in a contracted small business enterprise, with 5% of the ticket proceeds going to the business to offset rent of the kiosk. This would provide three functions to the station that in current business models are either cash drains or not even available: 1) permanent security, at least through a caretaker that can at least pick up a phone and call somebody; 2) ticket selling, eliminating serious overhead and fare loss from maintaining TVMs (ticket vending machines); and 3) a revenue generator (gasp!) by way of selling common items found in transit facilities around the world -- soda pop, newspapers and magazines, coffee, snack foods, chewing gum, on, and on, and on.

The basic idea is that this "caretaking" function for a station can actually pay for itself and then some. Our automated TVMs have an amazing overnight failure rate (I'm guessing the flux is between 35% and 50% for failures by the end of the operating day). Much of this depends upon the level of use incurred on a given day, they are highly susceptible to vandalism and expensive to repair, and once a TVM has gone out of service at a given station, the carrier is obligated to accept unpaid passengers who say they originated at the facility. IMHO, people are vastly superior to machines in performing day-to-day functions such as this, and given the right circumstances, more cost-effective as well.

A little bit of a stray from topic there webguy, but it boils down to this -- under these circumstances (a constant human presence in the station platform) your plasma screen ads do make sense, and could actually contribute more to the income stream. But, it's gotta be in a high-volume venue in order to attract advertisers, and each station, with its own demographics, will command different rates. But yes sir, it is do-able.

[JDC]

A little bit of a stray from topic there webguy, but it boils down to this -- under these circumstances (a constant human presence in the station platform) your plasma screen ads do make sense, and could actually contribute more to the income stream.

Yeah, but only until the "garbage" from SE Raleigh steals the plasma screens!

[kdub1]

Honestly, looking at the situation with CAT almost five years after giving the agency my own suggestions while I was a student at NC State, I have mixed feelings about the slow progress of the 5YP's implementation. It's nice to see frequencies added and Sunday service, but I am disappointed to see bus routes remain the same for the most part. Hopefully, with a more transit friendly council, things will get done. Now, I will give my two cents on what CAT sould do after the Five Year Plan ends.

Beyond the 5YP--Hubs

For their next five year plan, CAT should build transit centers at the following locations: North Hills, the planned NE Transit Center around TTC, the area near Beacon Plaza, and Downtown Garner (one route would connect with #7 at Super K-Mart). Once the agency lifts its self-imposed ban on serving other municipalities, then transit centers in the northern, western, and eastern parts of the county would be built to handle local service while TTA would handle intercity service. The transit centers would enhance Crabtree, NCSU, and the WakeMed area as part of a bigger hub system.

As for the proposed Intermodal Center, I would restrict it to trolleys and BRT for CAT while express service would stop at Moore Square.

Bus Service

The bus system badly needs to be overhauled as some routes still resemble the city's eastern boundaries from the 1950s. People need to realize the fact that Raleigh is no longer Mayberry and thet the system needs to grow. Since people are traveling to places where a downtown transfer is inconvient, more nontraditional routes are needed.

Fixed Routes

For the heaviest traveled routes, increase their current frequencies to every 15 or 30 minutes during peak hours and every 30 minutes during middays and all day Saturdays.

Connectors

If residents of certain routes are so interested in retaining servive in their neighborhoods, then their areas currenly served by fixed routes with limited ridership should be replaced by neighborhood circulators (aka, CAT connectors). Some routes like 8c and 11c would be split up to provide better service around certain neighborhoods. Also, bus routes from the neighborhood transit centers would be created to help out fixed routes. These buses would operate on the traditional small town frequencies of 30 minutes peak and hourly midday. Maybe, a Midtown Loop (out of the North Hills Hub) serving that portion of town would work as well.

Crosstown

As Raleigh continues to grow, more crosstown routes need to be added. I propose that there be an MLK, Jr. Drive route from NCSU to the East Raleigh Transit Hub where it would interline and continue as New Hope Road. What this route would do is to provide access for Wolfpack students and Southeast residents to stay on the same bus to Triangle Town Center without having to go downtown and transfer to #1. An Edwards Mill/RBC route would provide service to West Raleigh that isn't currently there. This route would interline with #23c at Crabtree. Tryon Road would provide service between the P&R Lot off Blue Ridge and the Super K-Mart.

Express

In addition to #70e and the planned routes, a Johnston County route should strongly be considered.

BRT

What should be done is to convert #15 since it has the most riders. It already has the most riders and a 15 minute peak hour frequency so it would be the perfect candidate. Once the Intermodal Center is built, CAT should move this route to the new location and extend it to the ERTH. Alos, get low floor buses and new logos as ways of distinguishing BRT from fixed route service. #15 would have 7-8 minute peak hour frequencies, 15 minute midday and Saturday frequencies, and 30 minute night and Sunday frequencies. As a side note, I would strongly consider converting #7 as ridership on that route continues to increase.

Trolley

Looking at the Trolley post over the past few months made me think of the 5YP because back in 2003, the firm advising CAT on the plan suggested that the agency reroute Routes #2, 4, 6, 8, and 16 off the outbound Wilmington/Salisbury and inbound McDowell/Jones/Salisbury loops and to other parts of downtown. CAT has taken all routes except #4 off the loops but have put all of them (except for #8) on Wilmington/Edenton outbound and Morgan/Salisbury inbound. In hindsight, a good idea because trolleys circulating downtown would better serve places like the Glenwood South and BTI than conventional buses. Also, with frequencies ranging from 5-15 minutes, downtown ridership would rise and be very appealing to out of town visitors.

[DB78]

Buses or any other mass transit will only work when traffic get so bad that it is more convenient and timely to use than driving. (Or gas prices go to $5 a gallon).

Raleigh isn't there, and the most cost effective way to handle congestion is to build more capacity. And you need density for mass transit to work, again, none of that happening quickly.

And honestly, right now the City should be pumping more money into resurfacing roads than anything else. Anyone driven Glenwood Ave between Crabtree and Five Points lately?

I hate to be the jerk of the moment by giving a dose of reality, but this post above is absolutely true. Only upon much more population density with lots more mixed use properties AND once gasoline is much more expensive will many more people ride the bus in Raleigh. The city is so fragmented, has a good amount of sprawl (which I'm happy to see changing) and getting from place to place is still very convenient in a car, without much hassle. ONLY upon gridlock or sky high gas prices are buses going to be looked at as a viable alternative for most people.

Personally, I like transit options but I also can't advocate trying to coerce people onto buses.

[Gard]

I hate to be the jerk of the moment by giving a dose of reality, but this post above is absolutely true. Only upon much more population density with lots more mixed use properties AND once gasoline is much more expensive will many more people ride the bus in Raleigh. The city is so fragmented, has a good amount of sprawl (which I'm happy to see changing) and getting from place to place is still very convenient in a car, without much hassle. ONLY upon gridlock or sky high gas prices are buses going to be looked at as a viable alternative for most people.

Personally, I like transit options but I also can't advocate trying to coerce people onto buses.

I completely agree on most of what you said. I do have to say though, that we can't just sit by and wait for "that day" to come when we really need it. We need to stay ahead of the game so that when we do need it, we are prepared. It may take longer for the city to densify, but as gas prices has shown, it doesn't take long for gas to shoot up. All it would take is a major disaster (terrorist attack, whatever) in an oil-producing area of the world or a major hurricane in the gulf to make gas price spike even more. For all we know, gas price could spike to $5/gallon by the end of this year, we have no way of knowing that, though I'm certain that government at all levels wouldn't just sit by while it occured and would do everything in their power to push is down somehow. The point of the matter is, we could be closer than we think at this moment in time to needing that expansion of mass transit.

As we say in the business I work in....A failure to plan is a plan to fail.

Edit: Added content.

[orulz]

Right now Raleigh's buses are so infrequent and many of the routes are so crooked and indirect that even a transit freak like myself has difficulty putting them to use. The TTA routes are actually not bad at all, since their trunk lines run every 15 minutes during rush hour. The only CAT bus that runs that often is the 15; a couple run every 30 minutes, and the vast majority of them see service only every 50-80 minutes.

I would add a couple routes on the major arterials that don't already have 'em (Western, Atlantic, Blue Ridge, Tryon, etc), and straighten out some of the more crooked ones (4 and 11/11c come to mind.) Otherwise I'd keep the route structure basically the same. But most importantly, I would increase the rush-hour frequency to 15 minutes on pretty much every route, which will make the buses more useful for choice riders and less of a drag on the people who are transit-dependent.

[Jones_]

just another thought...affluency hurts the areas disposition towards using mass transit....we are well off in terms of unemployment, median household income etc etc, and home affordability......when you can afford a car, the tendancy is to use it....makes it even harder to convince people....i.e., gas has to be even more expensive here, housing has to cost even more here etc.