Hybrid Cars

[dpbaker]

Currently in the market for a new car as lease is expiring on current one (well, wife's car...). Entertaining a hybrid but I'm discovering that dealers in the Bay Area are routinely marking the cars well above MSRP and supply is still very poor for the Prius and Civid Hybrid, but improving. The sad fact is, they are pricing themselves out of what I am willing to pay in trade for gas expenditure and I can't just "drive one off the lot". Timing is somewhat of an issue with a lease car, and we can't be without it, and promise times for hybrids are too unreliable, still. ZERO incentive on top of it.

I even looked at the Civic EX which is something like 30/40mpg, but they are asking a lot over MSRP because they can, and stock is limited.

I wanted to get environmentally "green" but green in my wallet counts too. It turns out that I can just trade the current V-Dub in for another V-Dub that is better equipped than the Hondas or Toyotas, get a better monthly payment, and for the miles we put on the car, we would see no trade off in gas prices. This is partly due to good incentives by VW. I guess maybe the hybrids have poor margin for the manufacturer, but great for dealers. Sorry, I'll have to remain environmentally unfriendly for at least another 3 years.

[dubone]

You can get a VW TDI diesel and use biodiesel in it as much as you can. Diesels are much cleaner now that they have low sulfur diesel. Also, diesels last so much longer, so there is a longer lifespan to amortize the environmental costs of manufacturing.

The VW Jetta TDI gives you 42 MPG on the highway and 35 MPG in the city. That is for a car that is bigger than the Civic, and provides you the option for biodiesel. I almost bought one when I bought my hybrid, but the diesel wasn't clean yet, and I decided I wanted to stick with a Honda (as I had very good reliability from my previous Honda). But if you are doing well with VW, then go with a TDI VW. In Cali, I'm sure you can find a decent number of biodiesel dealers.

[runawayjim]

You can get a VW TDI diesel and use biodiesel in it as much as you can. Diesels are much cleaner now that they have low sulfur diesel. Also, diesels last so much longer, so there is a longer lifespan to amortize the environmental costs of manufacturing.

The VW Jetta TDI gives you 42 MPG on the highway and 35 MPG in the city. That is for a car that is bigger than the Civic, and provides you the option for biodiesel. I almost bought one when I bought my hybrid, but the diesel wasn't clean yet, and I decided I wanted to stick with a Honda (as I had very good reliability from my previous Honda). But if you are doing well with VW, then go with a TDI VW. In Cali, I'm sure you can find a decent number of biodiesel dealers.

[dubone]

Is that still true with the new low-sulfur diesel? I haven't looked recently, but I thought when I researched it a couple years ago that it said they could would meet Cali emissions once the low-sulfur diesel was available.

[Captain Worley]

i've heard that you can't buy TDI's new in cali because of their strict emissions laws.

[dpbaker]

Yep. Catch-22 in California. The last year you could buy a diesel (I think) was 2002 or 2003. They are not available new at this time, though they are supposed to be reappearing I believe next year now that the low-sulfur diesel is coming on-line. So for the past 4 years we could have been getting 40-50mph in larger, safer vehicles, but instead settled for cars in the 20-30mph range and used up more oil resource. Don't know which is the lesser of two evils.

I think too often California sees itself in this holier-than-thou light and implements laws and regulations that intend good, but in retrospect are not. And it seems other states are more than happy to jump on board. California is often too reactionary.

[Choirboy622]

Can anyone tell me what upgrades Toyota will be making to the Prius in the next few years? Also, how will the cost be affected?

[runawayjim]

Can anyone tell me what upgrades Toyota will be making to the Prius in the next few years? Also, how will the cost be affected?

[Choirboy622]

i believe they're adding a self-park system that will automatically parallel park the car. if they're smart, the price won't go up too much.

[suburban george3]

Was just listening to an article on Headline News that Georgia is failing '04 Prius Hybrids on emissions testing. The cars can get a waiver, but the owners must first get a failure from the emissions inspection and then contact a state waiver office before they can get their tag renewed. The problem is the gas engine doesn't idle so the emissions computer can't get a reading and fails the vehicle.

If this is such an issue for the state's equipment and the Prius being such a small number of the state's fleet, I don't see why they don't exempt this vehicle.

[Captain Worley]

It is really strange that Toyota hasn't addressed this because from all I've read, it seems to be a software issue on their end.

The reason they don't exempt them is that startup has the potential for releasing the most pollutants (startup runs rich) and the Prius motor constantly cycles on and off.

[runawayjim]

It is really strange that Toyota hasn't addressed this because from all I've read, it seems to be a software issue on their end.

The reason they don't exempt them is that startup has the potential for releasing the most pollutants (startup runs rich) and the Prius motor constantly cycles on and off.

[Captain Worley]

I don't think I explained it well. The signal from the Prius engine controller is apparently sending an abort test code to the testing equipment when it shuts down the engine.

That's the way it has been explained on some of the car message boards.

[runawayjim]

toyota announced that they'll be 100% hybrid by 2020.

[erdogs]

toyota announced that they'll be 100% hybrid by 2020.

[erdogs]

Here is an article about releasing hydrogen from water by using beads of aluminum-gallium alloy. This sounds like a good step in the right direction and maybe hydrogen only cars are closer than ever.

"When I added water to this alloy, there was a violent poof," said Woodall. "When the aluminum atoms in the liquid alloy came into contact with the water, they reacted, splitting the water and producing hydrogen and aluminum oxide."

[monsoon]

.....

For the last year, I've had the Honda Accord Hybrid. In general, I have buyers remorse, as I switched to a hybrid at the last minute after wanting a cooler car. So, I'm having the 'I have a boring car' blues. It also doesn't get enough extra mpg to make up for the bore factor. I do get 38mpg on long interstate trips with consistent speeds, but I tend to get less in the city as I have a tendency to rush away from lights when they turn green. I haven't tracked it for the life of the vehicle, but in general, I think I get around 30 mpg on average, which isn't terrible for a car with 255hp that is mostly driven in the city....

[runawayjim]

Honda has announced they are going to stop making this car. They were unable to sell it for the reasons you cite.

[elguapo731]

I'm exploring UP outside of my region for the first time and have discovered there is a lot more then just Urban Development. My wife had a question on the ride home today and I couldn't answer it. The question came back to me while browsing the forum....

Is there a tax credit or will there be a tax credit in the future if you purchase a hybrid or eco-friendly car?

[Captain Worley]

There is an article in the latest Newsweek that says Honda is still working on hybrids, but the hybrids will look distinctly different from their IC only cars. They believe the hybrid Civics and Accords didn't sell well because the owners wanted everyone to know they were making an environmental statement, and the hybrids looked just like the regular models.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20438234/site/newsweek/

[suburban george3]

There is an article in the latest Newsweek that says Honda is still working on hybrids, but the hybrids will look distinctly different from their IC only cars. They believe the hybrid Civics and Accords didn't sell well because the owners wanted everyone to know they were making an environmental statement, and the hybrids looked just like the regular models.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20438234/site/newsweek/

[nashvillwill]

This is a little off subject of Hybrids, but i believe it fits. I'm soon going to need a new auto. My current '96 Grand Cherokee is showing it's age. Although i love this car, and it has been very good to me, it's days are numbered, and at 19mpg, my days with it are also numbered.

So, I need something with better fuel efficiency. However, i'm going to buy used. As a student/bartender i can't exactly afford to go for top of the line Hybrid. I'm also not sure yet how i feel about them due to their untested lifespan/environmentally un-friendly batteries and such.

Here are my options, i would like input;

1. used hybrid- Although this would be very E.F., and good for gas mileage, it seems there is high risk in buying a used hybrid. I have heard that the cost to replace worn batteries can be as high as $10k.

2. used compact diesel- I have highly considered this option. With better fuel economy than most gasoline engines, and the new cleaner diesel, this seems to be a good option. It also permits the opportunity to use bio-diesel(which my local station sells). However, my mechanic buddy tells me that these can also be very expensive to maintain.

3. used smaller gasoline auto- Obviously anything would be better than the 19mpg i get now. If i get something in the 25-35mpg range, while i wont be saving the planet or my pocketbook, it definitely helps. It is a proven technology and maintainance is reasonable.

4. Smart car- With dealerships coming online in '08 i could afford a new FourTwo at 12k msrp. However, I recently drove one and it is like a large go cart. Acceleration is unresponsive, and with a 3 cylinder engine, i'm affraid longevity could be an issue. Maybe the manual version drives a little better, but again, i would worry about longevity.

I wish i lived in an area that i could keep my current auto and just supplement it most trips with a scooter. However, i don't. Suburban Nashville is very unfriendly to those not in an Escalade. People assume to run you down as opposed to actually having to put their foot on the brake of their 4k pound machine. Forget walking/biking. You will literally be killed! My "street" is a 6 lane highway with no shoulder/sidewalk with a 45 mph speed limit. Speeds actually average around 60mph.

Any thoughts on this matter?

P.S.- I find it funny that many people opposed to mass-transit often argue that they don't want to be forced to do so. They want to use their feet as an "option", but still have the right to their personal auto when desired. I find it funny because it is typically the opposite. In my area, you are forced to own an auto, and using your feet is not an option, unless you have a death wish. Trust me, i would like to move to a more foot-friendly neighborhood, but it's just not in the cards right now.

[runawayjim]

it really depends on the kind of driving you do and how much you can afford. a hybrid gets better mileage in city driving than it does on the highway.

i don't know how much more expensive a diesel is to maintain than a gasoline auto, but that might be an option. diesel is more expensive though. i'm also not sure you'd get that much better mileage out of a diesel than out of a smaller gasoline powered car that gets good mileage. most diesels, i believe, get about 50 mpg. you can get around 40 on a regular honda civic or toyota corolla. stay away from AWD if you want better mileage. it does give a hit, especially in city driving (my car does terrible in the city, but great on the highway).

if i were in your shoes, knowing the amount of money i've got, i'd probably try to get a 2-4 year old corolla, civic, or scion. i've got the AWD to drive around northern new england for skiing in the winter.

[Captain Worley]

You might want to look at a used Malibu Maxx. About the same interior space as your Jeep, but people are getting 25-30mpg with the V6. I'm looking to pick one up.

VW TDI's are kinda pricey and have reliability issues. I can't really recommend them, but many like them and they do get great mileage.

Chvy HHRs are good used buys. Lots of space, good mileage and a distinctive look.

You can get a new Yaris liftback for around 13K if you are careful with options. This car gets great mileage and has the Toyota reputation for reliablity.

[suburban george3]

I'd have to agree with runawayjim, a 2-4 year old Civic, Corolla, Scion or the like should fit the bill for you nicely. Maybe even a CR-V or Rav-4, if you like to sit up a bit higher? Any of those choices would still work well in suburban Nashville and be much nicer to the planet than the Jeep @ 19mpg.