Hybrid Cars

[runawayjim]

That is another hip car we need.

Cause it's the "in" thing now, families got too many children in their households now.

[miamivicefan]

that's what i don't get. minivans are safer, more fuel efficient, and much more comfortable than SUV's and have the same amount of cargo space. and most people with 2 kids can get away with a wagon and be just fine. my parents never had to cart an SUV's amount of stuff for me and my brother when we were younger, i don't understand why current families of 4 need to do that. it's a bit excessive if you ask me.

[runawayjim]

But People got sick of the minivans, cause they are not enough room for them, so they switch to the SUV.

I Understand what you saying though.

But Minivans & station wagons got played out in the 90's.

[miamivicefan]

the standard SUV (not the suburban/expedition/excursion) is no larger than the standard minivan.

[runawayjim]

But the standard SUV is about to change in 2007, 2008, cause hybrids and E85 versions are coming out, so we can reduce gas.

That's why I Respect cadillac, chevrolet and GMC.

Here's the video about ethanol.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=58...74106&q=E85

[miamivicefan]

and toyota/lexus already have hybrid SUV's. GM is playing catch-up it seems.

[tamias6]

who do you think makes the japanese cars? they're almost entirely made in the US. i won't buy an american car because the reliability and innovation pale in comparison to japanese cars, but you're still paying americans to make them because they're all made here.

back on topic... i don't understand why all these people who drive SUV's think they need that much room. 75% of the time i see them, there's 1 person in it. families can fit stuff in station wagons and get a much safer vehicle that gets better mileage. and why is there this need for more room now? when i was a kid, there were wagons and sedans. no one had an SUV unless you lived in the country. we (my family of 4) took a trip to florida in a regular sedan for over a week.

[bmorescottamanda]

who do you think makes the japanese cars? they're almost entirely made in the US. i won't buy an american car because the reliability and innovation pale in comparison to japanese cars, but you're still paying americans to make them because they're all made here.

back on topic... i don't understand why all these people who drive SUV's think they need that much room. 75% of the time i see them, there's 1 person in it. families can fit stuff in station wagons and get a much safer vehicle that gets better mileage. and why is there this need for more room now? when i was a kid, there were wagons and sedans. no one had an SUV unless you lived in the country. we (my family of 4) took a trip to florida in a regular sedan for over a week.

[runawayjim]

Just because they are built in the US the money still goes back to Asia. And I hate how cheap and small they make them. I saw a bike run in to a Honda and there was $2,000 worth of damage. the metal that they use for the body is paper thin.

[Pillsbury]

The American car companies produced such bad cars in the late 70s, 80s, and early 90s that they're having to work overtime to try and compete. I think right now the American companies can hold their own with most imports, but there is still a general perception that American cars are pieces of junk.

[Pillsbury]

But People got sick of the minivans, cause they are not enough room for them, so they switch to the SUV.

I Understand what you saying though.

But Minivans & station wagons got played out in the 90's.

[runawayjim]

I think SUVS are popular basically because they have truck engines, sit higher off the ground, and can tow stuff. A lot of people like them for that reason. A lot of men prefer that their wives drive SUVs because of being higher off the ground, they feel safer of their surroundings (not only for wrecks but also just for driving around town). A lot of men drive them because they're cool and they still feel a bit masculine driving a Jeep Grand Cherokee as opposed to a station wagon. All of those factors come into play. I sympathize with them; I really do. I used to drive a Jeep Cherokee and I loved it. I now drive a Taurus, and even though I feel better about the gas mileage and the emissions (and it really is a wonderful car, much smoother and faster), I still miss my Jeep.

[FromCityToRural]

I wouldn't say that Detroit's in bed with oil companies. Having looked at the history of these companies, it strikes me that they are more stuck to tradition than anything else. They don't focus on fuel economy because they traditionally never have. And they way they built cars attracted buyers back in the 50's-early 70's. It's hard to give up something that worked so well for so long - I'm sure we all have some such experience we canrelate to. Now, I like these kinds of vehicles - believe it or not, they do have a myriad of advantages - but most urban buyers don't, and that's a lesson that GM especially hasn't learned. Ford knows it, I think, and despite some good offerings that were designed or built in Europe, they haven't taken off for some reason. Chrysler's zeroing in on them, first with the Neon and now with the Caliber.

The second problem is that they are so deep into cost-cutting mode, that they have let the accountants and engineers take over vehicle design rather than letting real car people do it. The result is an inferior product, which in turn results in lower sales, and then a kneejerk to more cost-cutting. It's a vicious downward spiral.

As I said, as a driver, I prefer large, V8-powered vehicles without all the fancy gee-whiz techno-gadgetry that Imports seem to rely on so much (give me a carburetor, no smog controls, no airbags or ABS any day), but as a businessperson I realize that Detroit has to stop being stuck in the 70's and develop a core of auto enthusiasts both in the boardroom and the drawing room who can conceive and design vehicles that people actually want to drive and buy.

[Pillsbury]

being higher off the ground is not safer. for example, i witnessed an accident between a ford escort and a jeep cherokee on a residential city street. guess who won? hint, it wasn't the jeep. in fact, the jeep ended up upside down with the windshield all smashed. the escort was pretty banged up, but still right side up and the driver wasn't injured.

i drive a station wagon because i can fit a lot of stuff in it while still being fuel efficient and being easy to park on a city street. i don't sympathize with anyone who feels the need to drive a large vehicle simply because it's "manly" because they're certainly no safer than a car and i can probably tow a small boat with my wagon (it's AWD).

[FromCityToRural]

I'm going to live in a travel trailer when I move out...ca 25ft., probably weigs in at ca. 7000#. Guess what gets to tow it?

[runawayjim]

Oh yeah, and I agree with you. I'm just mentioning general perceptions I have encountered. The safety issue was more for husbands who feel their wives are safer in a large SUV because they're higher off the ground and they feel safer when driving through rough areas or late at night. Kind of like how bank tellers and store clerks always stand on elevated platforms.

I agree with you about wrecks though---in fact, when I first switched to my car I was driving back from Atlanta and I had to swerve hard to miss a wreck---the only thing I thought about was that if I had been in my old Jeep I would have flipped it.

You probably could tow a boat with your stationwagon---a small one probably. You get up to larger sizes though and it would probably eat your transmission up though. Of course, if you have an American SUV your transmission is going to fry anyway, so I guess you could argue that it doesn't make much difference.

A lot of guys still like trucks and they think SUVs are the perfect fit because you get the performance and ruggedness of a truck with the convenience of a car. Plus, when the government attacks and the black helicopters are giving chase, you can throw the bad boy down in 4 wheel drive and take off through the mountains laughing at all the people in stuck on the side of the road in their sedans---at least until you run out of gas....

[Pillsbury]

Fromcitytorural, something tells me it won't be the Benz or the Mustang......

that's why i drive a subaru. it's got the AWD and towing capabilities of a small truck. and when the gov't comes, i don't have to throw it in anything and can tear off through the mountains faster than an SUV.

[monsoon]

I wouldn't say that Detroit's in bed with oil companies. Having looked at the history of these companies, it strikes me that they are more stuck to tradition than anything else. They don't focus on fuel economy because they traditionally never have.......

[bmorescottamanda]

That's not really true. The big 4 (Ford, GM, Chrysler, AMC) have tried to produce cars that were fuel efficient since the first gasoline shortages in 1973. The Chevy Vega and Ford Pinto are two very infamous examples of this. Their problem is they never managed to produce a vehicle that anyone would really want to drive. In the late 70s for example, Chevy was putting out the Chevette which was like riding in a car that had the finesse of a lawn mower compared to its peers, the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Civic.

The other problem that GM had at this time is they killed their brands because they went to far with putting stuff on a common platforms. A very notorious example of this was the Cadillac Cimmaron which basically was a dressed up Chevy. Cadillac once stood for cutting edge technology and luxury, but they have long since been replaced by Mercedes, BMW and even Lexus in this area. Only now is GM making some attempts to fix this problem but I think it is too little too late.

It should be no surprise the Big 4 is now the Big 2 as AMC is just a memory and Chrysler is basically a subsidary of Mercedes, and all decisions really come from Germany now. I think they probably regret having bought this company as the combined worth of DiamlerChrysler is less than the worth of Diamler-Benz before the merger.

[FromCityToRural]

That's not really true. The big 4 (Ford, GM, Chrysler, AMC) have tried to produce cars that were fuel efficient since the first gasoline shortages in 1973. The Chevy Vega and Ford Pinto are two very infamous examples of this. Their problem is they never managed to produce a vehicle that anyone would really want to drive. In the late 70s for example, Chevy was putting out the Chevette which was like riding in a car that had the finesse of a lawn mower compared to its peers, the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Civic.

The other problem that GM had at this time is they killed their brands because they went to far with putting stuff on a common platforms. A very notorious example of this was the Cadillac Cimmaron which basically was a dressed up Chevy. Cadillac once stood for cutting edge technology and luxury, but they have long since been replaced by Mercedes, BMW and even Lexus in this area. Only now is GM making some attempts to fix this problem but I think it is too little too late.

It should be no surprise the Big 4 is now the Big 2 as AMC is just a memory and Chrysler is basically a subsidary of Mercedes, and all decisions really come from Germany now. I think they probably regret having bought this company as the combined worth of DiamlerChrysler is less than the worth of Diamler-Benz before the merger.

[Captain Worley]

That's not really true. The big 4 (Ford, GM, Chrysler, AMC) have tried to produce cars that were fuel efficient since the first gasoline shortages in 1973. The Chevy Vega and Ford Pinto are two very infamous examples of this. Their problem is they never managed to produce a vehicle that anyone would really want to drive. In the late 70s for example, Chevy was putting out the Chevette which was like riding in a car that had the finesse of a lawn mower compared to its peers, the Toyota Corolla and the Honda Civic.

The other problem that GM had at this time is they killed their brands because they went to far with putting stuff on a common platforms. A very notorious example of this was the Cadillac Cimmaron which basically was a dressed up Chevy. Cadillac once stood for cutting edge technology and luxury, but they have long since been replaced by Mercedes, BMW and even Lexus in this area. Only now is GM making some attempts to fix this problem but I think it is too little too late.

It should be no surprise the Big 4 is now the Big 2 as AMC is just a memory and Chrysler is basically a subsidary of Mercedes, and all decisions really come from Germany now. I think they probably regret having bought this company as the combined worth of DiamlerChrysler is less than the worth of Diamler-Benz before the merger.

[dubone]

GM might end up doing more green cars after being completely slammed for the killing the electric car.

They are now planning a plug-in hybrid prototype for next year.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/11/gms_plugin_hybr.php

Plug in hybrids can basically be electric cars entirely if you use the car a certain way (drive to work under 25 mph within a certain range and then plug it in overnight). You can then use them like a regular hybrid if you want to drive faster, farther, or whatever.

I think any move GM makes into green powertrains will be a good one. They should also figure out how to get society away from the notion that if you have kids (very small human beings), you need an SUV (very large vehicles). I swear, everyone I know who plans kids, plans their SUV purchase. When I was a toddler, my family had one of those Honda Civics that was smaller than a modern day Mini. What gives?

For the last year, I've had the Honda Accord Hybrid. In general, I have buyers remorse, as I switched to a hybrid at the last minute after wanting a cooler car. So, I'm having the 'I have a boring car' blues. It also doesn't get enough extra mpg to make up for the bore factor. I do get 38mpg on long interstate trips with consistent speeds, but I tend to get less in the city as I have a tendency to rush away from lights when they turn green. I haven't tracked it for the life of the vehicle, but in general, I think I get around 30 mpg on average, which isn't terrible for a car with 255hp that is mostly driven in the city.

I'm interested to see more convergence of green powertrains, like plug-in-biodiesel-hybrids or ethanol hybrids. I've also read recently about an MIT discovery that ethanol can be used as a turbo additive to save 20-30% of gas, but not use much ethanol.

I couldn't find it at first, but here is that article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15427584/

[Captain Worley]

People have been using alcohol injection in turbo cars for years to increase power at the dragstrip. Google turbo dodge alcohol injection.

Both the Axis and Allies used alcohol injection (along with water, nitrous oxide, and in some cares hydrogen peroxide injection) in their WWII aircaft engines to improve performance in short bursts. This isn't a new technology, and it is pretty well proven.

[dubone]

That is interesting. I wonder what was new about the technique that made it newsworthy, or maybe they're just trying to build buzz for a resurgence of the technology.

[Captain Worley]

I suspect they are trying to get grant money by pawning off existing technology as theirs. I've seen it happen in the hallowed halls of academia before.