SkyHouse Charlotte, Publix and 10Tryon Tower in 4th Ward

[dubone]

(Kingston does not align to an interstate freeway exit 1 block away, or you would have voted differently.  It is about traffic counts and street design.  Pine and 9th are not appropriate for 5x the traffic.  So Kingston has larger setbacks, wider cross section, planting strips, and no major nearby origination or destination for high traffic volume.  So it is a different criteria judgment for a very different context.  I am FOR opening many of the closures, just not ones opening the floodgates for high-traffic through-traffic.  The bet for opening Kingston is one where it would not be as many cars as feared, not the bet that a constant flow of traffic changes the community. )  "The dose makes the poison"

 

 

 

But yeah, yay crane pad...  

 

There isn't even a thread for historic 4th Ward to move the discussion because it has been settled policy for 35 years that it is supposed to be a protected cluster of victorian homes protected with overbearing zoning and historic review processes to remain as much as possible like the stable walkable urban cluster of single family homes it (almost) always was.  Hate to bore people with discussion of this nature, but it is a fragile historic neighborhood 1 block from this high rise, yet unlike other areas, 4th Ward supports its high density and high intensity and high rise uses all around it.  So don't start pitching that 4th Ward should have thoroughfares down the center of it without expecting an argument.  One I wasn't even going to counterpoint until it kept coming up. 

[southslider]

None of the streets would be widened or designed as thoroughfares. Graham Street wouldn't have left turn lanes or signals at the newly connected streets. Internal all-way stops would be maintained, as would on-street parking. Really the only change would be the elimination of the dead ends, which would likely be at new all-way stops on similarly narrow local streets within the neighborhood. Kingston is a good comparison, as it too wouldn't be redesigned much, just connected, you know, like the streets historically had been. Somehow 4th Ward existed for decades connected to a vibrant downtown. Then, when downtown was scary, streets were closed. Now that Uptown has revitalized, I find the whole "fragile historic area" argument stuck in the 20th century mindset of suburban design applied to cities through urban renewal. It's the 21st century now, where connectivity is good and helps support the very walkable urbanism upon which cities thrive.

[Spartan]

A church concerned with day care traffic patterns while the city makes a change that DOWNGRADES a street is vastly different.  Opening a path from 277 to high-intensity uses uptown through a residential neighborhood of homes that are 2-3x closer to the street than houses on Euclid and Pecan is a significant upgrade in vehicle count.  Keep in mind, traffic counts are already quite high, so it is not as though they are suburban culdesacs, there is plenty of connectivity through the neighborhood, but it is restricted enough to the point that it is still livable as a community.   People also adapt to the insufficient bike and pedestrian infrastructure by walking down the street like a balanced neighborhood with calm traffic.  Introduce through traffic for uptown, and we will instantly have a constant stream of automobile traffic that is far from calm.  As I mentioned before, there are still people now who act as though they can get through, and they prove the case of what the norm would be if it were opened up, racing to their highest levels until they realize they must turn. 

 

As I type, I hear crisply the laughter and discussion of a group of 30 tourists on segways in the middle of the street discussing the history of the community. This does not happen in the middle of Euclid, nor does it happen on Graham street, which has been long established as the thoroughfare to take the through traffic.  All of the victorian houses on Graham are gone, and that is fine, it was the market acting on that change without artificial policies forcing SFH zoning.   Those bypasses saving the historic heart of the neighborhood, just like Dilworth and the others have.   The character of those bypass thoroughfares changes with the harsher environment, but the interiors remain more residential in character. 

 

The vehicle numbers going through uptown are vastly different from those neighborhoods you are discussing like Pecan and Euclid. Put an NFL stadium, NBA arena and 30 massive office buildings in Midwood and watch how rapidly the panicking starts and the need to find a balance between thoroughfares and neighborhood streets with different characters.  Or remove the zoning and historic overlay restriction policies and watch how rapidly the character of those streets change to capital-intensive higher density structures with lower income residents.   

 

The impacts would be not even close to minor blip on the radar deserving a condescending reference to fear of change. It would be nothing comparable to a downgrade from a one way thoroughfare to a two-way neighborhood street. It would not only be dramatic alteration of the nature of the neighborhood.  It would be life changing for me personally, and it would absolutely cause me to move, albeit not to a small mountain town or anything like true urbanists do, but I would not be staying to ride out the changes.   

 

 

 

According to the 2013 city Average Weekday Traffic Volumes, (which ignores weekend events) here are traffic counts for through-streets:

• Graham (uptown):  11,200
• McDowell: 12,480
• Davidson: (uptown) 4800
• Caldwell: 7600
• Church: 8300 (7200 in 4th Ward)
• MLK: 4600
• Mint: 4500

As a point of comparison, Kenilworth (in Dilworth): 10,300

 

Then compare to the current counts or streets that are intentionally blocked to be neighborhood streets and not thoroughfares:

• Pine: 1200
• 9th (in 4th Ward): 1300
• 8th (in 4th Ward): 1000
• Alexander (in 1st Ward): 600
• 9th (in 1st Ward): 1500 (this was disconnected from 10th in Belmont to stop cut through, which has 10,100)
• Myers (in 1st Ward) 700

 

There is a 10-fold difference between the neighborhood streets cut off and the through streets that are connected, and a huge difference between the speeds of those cars.  It is flat out not compatible with victorian homes 5'-10' from the street.   Set backs make ALL the difference.  Plaza and QRW are ceremonial streets with grand trees, large set backs, lush medians and larger lots.  Of course they have higher values even with through traffic.   If you think that is even remotely comparable to the cross sections of 8th, 9th, or Pine, then perhaps you don't live in Charlotte. 

 

 

 

 

This will be my last response to the subject, since it is annoying the people who don't care, and using up too much energy for me to address a hypothetical from an ivory tower from people who do not have their money where their mouth is. 

 

It seems like you may be mixing up concepts about thoroughfares vs non-thoroughfares. Street design is a rather complex topic, but suffice it to say that in neighborhoods, traffic volume does not dictate street design. First, the streets would not be able to handle 'thoroughfare' levels of traffic. Second, neighborhood streets would not be widened to accommodate said traffic even if it existed in the first place.

 

FWIW, I'm not suggesting that traffic patterns would stay the same. I simply disagree that it would increase to the level of 'thoroughfare' streets like Euclid, Pecan, Davidson, etc. Those streets have been specifically designed to carry more traffic at higher speeds and provide useful/practical connections to other parts of town. The difference between 4th Ward and all of the other neighborhoods is that there are way more efficient ways to exit/enter uptown than driving through the neighborhood, and I maintain that this would be the case even if the streets had never been cut off. Because those streets (8th, 9th, Pine) are so narrow, and because the buildings are so close to the street, and because they are so heavily parked, it is not comfortable (and in most cases not possible) to drive more than 15-20 mph. Traffic causes itself to be much slower on these streets because it is impossible to pass the another car without pulling over. Ultimately these hypothetical connections would create more convenience for 4th Ward residents, and not for everyone else. 

 

I will concede that it would be rather difficult to build a street connections on Pine Street because the actual ROW does not exist anymore. However, on 8th and 9th it does. So, I think that options exist for rebuilding street connections that are actually quite pedestrian friendly and would discourage - but not prevent - through traffic. Case in point, Roland Street in Plaza-Midwood was extended in what is called a "choker" design that forces traffic to stop to allow one car to go through at a time. 

 

[tozmervo]

I swear I've driven through there before and never even noticed that choker. Impressive. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.22085,-80.7966,3a,75y,278.57h,74.14t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1snkHYBxgN2imWaSB8Bmi01A!2e0

[southslider]

10th St is far below most of the streets for which traffic counts were shared, and it is connected, even to 277. Obviously, narrower 8th and 9th Streets would never approach wider 10th.

Some residents in Chantilly opposed connecting Bascom to 7th, as well as some in Elizabeth opposed lining up their street to Bascom. But neither street has seen much uptick in traffic. However, Chantilly residents now have a more attractive alternative to being held hostage to Pecan.

Of course, change is scary, even to those who actually reap the most benefits from a change.

[Miesian Corners]

A little bird told me yesterday that that the sale of the Days Inn site has been agreed upon with all parties involved.  No closing date set, however.  

[RiverwoodCLT]

Thanks little bird. That made the day for me.  You can have the swimming pool for old times little bird.

[dubone]

YAY!!! 

 

It seemed inevitable after that lease termination, but hearing further confirmation is AMAZING.  

 

It will really change North Tryon for the better to have that slum motel replaced, especially with a high rise (or Publix) or really anything. 

 

(only thing I'll say left on trying to remake 4th Ward streets is back to the condescending "change is scary", so then let the owners in the neighborhood also change: open up the historic commission rules.  Public policy demanding things stay quaint and unchanged should not be met with that type of condescending decree from on high that the neighborhood adjust.  I note the reference to 10th and to Chantilly meaning that opening up the through streets will not add traffic, so sure, I will go along with this theory, if it can be proven.  But it is flat out wrong, and a false analogy.  10th does connect two thoroughfares, but does not in itself go anywhere.   If you open a clear line north to south on Pine from the 277 exit ramp to Wilmore to the CBD and the stadiums.  It is the opposite of historic district policies demanding things stay as close to the same as possible.     You can open up 3/4 of the closures with NO impact, but the ones that open up through traffic for a percentage of thoroughfare traffic destroys the historic neighborhood equilibrium in a hot second.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Back to topic, does anybirdy know what will go in place of the motel?  I'm guessing it will be a hotel, but it will be great to see how it progresses!

[birky]

Looks like the "official" groundbreaking is today.

 

 

@FYC_CLT

[ah59396]

They are real close to pouring concrete.  Looking at the webcam, they've got enough re-bar out there to build a bridge right now.

[atlrvr]

If you go back and look at Skyhouse Raleigh on Christmas Day, that's about the same place Charlotte is today.  So, we are lagging 4 months or so, but granted we had pretty poor winter weather, which may have slowed Raleigh slightly....in other words, by the time Panthers season starts, we should be 15+ stories up.

[dubone]

So 6 months maybe to top out if we keep good weather this spring and summer?   That is great.

[Jones_]

Looking at the Raleigh one out of my office window now and the 15th floor columns are going in now. Its close to a floor a week, The auger piles were in the ground in less than a month as well. Curtain wall is in for about half of the 14 completed floors too. Its quite the clockwork exercise they have going on a pretty small site and staging area. 

[dubone]

Looking back, it seemed it was about a week for the crane to built up once the base was stable (or something) but then about 5-6 weeks after the crane was complete before the first floor plate was poured.  Then the clockwork starts.

[Guest]

Looking back, it seemed it was about a week for the crane to built up once the base was stable (or something) but then about 5-6 weeks after the crane was complete before the first floor plate was poured.  Then the clockwork starts.

And to think we were calling this one dead...

[dubone]

Yeah, I was getting nervous with people calling the end of the apartment cycle.   

 

But perhaps it really was almost dead if they couldn't come to terms on the City Inn slum motel, but with it now nearing or done a deal, it is all green lit!

[dcharlotte]

^^ bingo.

[HopHead]

Looks like we finally have some vertical movement on this project now... Parking deck has its first support columns going in.

[Windsurfer]

Looks like we finally have some vertical movement on this project now... Parking deck has its first support columns going in.

Parking or actual building?  The most recent renderings I saw show that to be the apartment building with the deck being located between that and the slum motel.

[Matthew.Brendan]

Is there any particular reason why there is no subterranean parking in Charlotte, other than cost? Under the Green is the only I can think of.

[tozmervo]

Duke Energy and 1BAC both have several levels of parking below, and there are a few buildings that go at least 1 level down. 

 

Mostly, it's way, way more expensive to go down than to go up. Excavation alone, but long term you have a lot more maintenance issues with water control and air handling. There are no particular geological restrictions otherwise. 

[nonillogical]

Is there any particular reason why there is no subterranean parking in Charlotte, other than cost? Under the Green is the only I can think of.

Just cost. There are a bunch though actually, and some under construction now: Duke Endowment, Crescent Dilworth, Fountains Stonewall, The Mint (partially).

[Guest]

Just cost. There are a bunch though actually, and some under construction now: Duke Endowment, Crescent Dilworth, Fountains Stonewall, The Mint (partially).

Epicentre has thousands of spaces underground!!

[Prodev]

Duke Energy and 1BAC both have several levels of parking below, and there are a few buildings that go at least 1 level down. 

 

Mostly, it's way, way more expensive to go down than to go up. Excavation alone, but long term you have a lot more maintenance issues with water control and air handling. There are no particular geological restrictions otherwise. 

Power Tower has 7 levels of underground parking. 

[carolinagarnet]

Not to get too off topic, but the Duke Energy Center and The Green parking garages are connected by an underground hallway. Whenever it was raining, we would take the tunnel from DEC to the Green, through to Wachovia, and on to the Overstreet Mall. It's pretty clutch.