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2030 Transit Plan


monsoon

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Lots of speakers at the meeting tonight, advocating for the various corridors.

In listening to the MTC meeting, it is interesting so many people came out from East Charlotte from Elizabeth all the way to Eastland mall to speak out about the situation with the streetcar. Apparently these people felt this streetcar was a given and would be running by 2009 and are now disappointed this may not happen. I am surprised there was so much surprise from this group about the status on this line. I am wondering if the question we got in the other thread was related this effort. And Eastland Mall speaker said they are hanging in there. :huh:

One party, said this was a racial issue in speaking about service to the West side. He said that transit agencies build trains for affluent White people and buses for everyone else.

The boss of the University City Partners, who said McCroy told him to beat the drums for this, is happy they have submitted a plan that is transit friendly. McCroy did not care for the comment made by this person that University city was not represented by a Mayor. LOL.

One party got up and said that CATS suffered from not thinking outside the box. Gee I wonder I think I said the same thing. This guy got an applause for the speech he made. Another party said the ridership models were basically crap, Tober defended their actions.

There were lots of speakers for the North Line. Nothing new there that hasn't already been spoken here except they had a lot more developers come and speak for it.

Phillips asked why the University line went from two phases to one phase. Tober said it was because of the UNCC decision and that the line cost so much. Tober kept re-iterating the point that NE was available for New Starts funding.

They apparently were working on this resolution right up to the meeting.

Unfortunately we didn't get to move forward without getting both a lecture and some long drama from McCroy. From what I could see, everyone started to fall asleep while his speech was going on. I think he is practicing to take Elizabeth Dole's seat as it is rumored she is going to step down. If this is true, he needs to learn to keep it short. Edit: When I though it was over, we get another speech from him. I hope they were serving coffee in there.

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Basically they voted for Plan A, which is what I expected, and what I think was the best choice at this point. I attended the meeting and liked the comments by McCrory, Matthews Mayor Myers, and Chairmen Helms. What the elected officials were saying is that they need to hear from us more, those that support transit...that if we speak loader, and with more voices then this plan will happen faster. However if we stay silent, then its likely that nothing on this plan will get built.

Something else that needs to be kept in mind is that this is just a Plan. It is not a promise, it is not fully funded and a million things can happen between now and 2030 and I would be willing to bet that this plan will be revised many times between now and then.

All that being said it is an exciting time to be living in Mecklenburg, to watch and participate in decisions that will affect us as a community for many decades to come.

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When Helms read the resolution, he said these would be the start of construction dates.

These dates of course are contingent on funding. It's my guess that given CATS past history, the NE line is going to cost way way more than $750M and because of that they will spend years trying to get the money out of the Feds. Without the federal money it won't be built.

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People for the North line seemed to echo the 'promise' line, too. I think it was just an expression that we are all hoping for the earlier dates from earlier plans.

I think pretty much tonight's vote was to delay all the corridors and to speed up the NE corridor.

As much as I support the streetcar line, and am worried about ridership for the North line (although I'm sure it'll beat projections), I think the voted in plan is a good compromise.

The N and NE lines are both next, starting construction in 2009 and 2011 respectively. The North line is appropriate because it is not as expensive. It saves the region from needing to widen 77 in the north. It rewards the towns for very progressive planning and zoning. And it will support urban development patterns in a mostly greenfield section of the county.

The NE line is appropriate because it is expensive with major inflation impacts for delaying. It supports regionally important destinations like LMS, Verizon Ampitheater, UNCC and arguably IKEA and URP. It has significant ridership estimates, with a good shot at federal funding. And it adds significant value to the South line under construction by allowing people to ride a single train from Pineville to UNCC and beyond.

I supported streetcar much more than other corridors, however, I am willing to accept this compromise plan. Here are my reasons for supporting a delay in my pet project. I think that isn't too far out to be reasonably anticipated by neighborhoods and developers in the corridor. When they first came out with the 2025 plan, the streetcar was expected around 2013. Now, five years have passed, and the streetcar is delayed 5 years. It stinks to go back to square one, but I didn't think it was terribly far off then, so I suppose I shouldn't think it is terribly far off now.

Grubb's plan is a ten year plan, so it is seems reasonable that final build out of Elizabeth Ave could coincide with the streetcar going in. In general, I believe that there are many other fundamental factors the projects in Elizabeth, Uptown and Central Ave that will allow them to move forward without an imminent streetcar line. I think the streetcar project with a ten-year horizon is still a selling point for buyers.

Maybe the extra time could allow the city to do more in anticipation of the streetcar, which could either make it more successful or less expensive to build.

Back to the MTC meeting: I think the main applause line for the 'thinking outside the box' speech was to get more private involvement, such as private stations and sponsorships. As much of the audience was filled with streetcar supporters, I think that rung particularly true. Why couldn't developers pay for stations for the bus in antipation of the eventual streetcar? Why couldn't new projects along the way pay for tracks in front of their projects? Private developers contribute to roads, so why not to tracks? Portland used a lot of private sponsorships to build their streetcar, so why not in Charlotte?

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We tend to assume on this forum that the MTC representatives are all jockeying for their constituents... But I get the impression there is more cooperation than we give them credit for. The Matthews mayor expressed a strong commitment to transit, and was willing to support the regional interests at stake.

The vote was probably a foregone conclusion, already worked out in private... and there did not seem to be any competing motions to debate. That may disappoint the people who came to address the council, to find there were no undecided votes at stake.

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Yeah, I loved how all those people came to support the streetcar, and Tober just laughed it off. But I suppose that was to be expected.

Mayor Myers and Mayor McCrory both spoke about the need for the whole system, and stressed unity. The northern mayors didn't tip their hat even once to that notion. But at least they backed off the me-only-or-we're-leaving sentiment that seemed to be floating out there. In the end, I think it was true compromise in that everyone was a little unhappy.

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I would agree with you MZT, and so does the Mayor of Cornelious. At the last MTC meeting he stated that the MTC was the least political of any council he has served on...and all the members nodded in agreement.

I would say that the MTC has worked extremely well so far considering all the competing agendas that each member brings to the table. They have been able to work things out and not get in a huge cat fight or pissing contest in the process. And tonight's unanimous vote just adds to that legacy.

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One other thing that came to light, in the text of the motion read by Helms, was that proposed stops can be re-evaluated (for removal) on both the N and NE lines. It sounds like there will be some "value engineering" taking place.

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I have corrected it above. It was Mayor Myers of Matthews that I meant to type.

It is interesting that the streetcar is being thrown off as just a nice idea when at least it got a much higher expected rating in the preliminary design phase than the N line. The FTA may not like funding streetcars, but they really don't like funding commuter lines, so we're not even bothering to try.

But I believe they'll both be built, so I'm not too worried about the perceptions.

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Yep, I expect that on the North line, the Derita and Harris Blvd stations are gone for sure. I am not so sure about Eastfield. There is a development planned for that station and they may get the developer to pay for it. Ironically the loss of these two stations ought to make the response time better.

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I think the N line will get some earmarks. But Tober did look quite the fool for bypassing the question about the $25m he included in the 2030 option.

The Small Starts legislation is designed to fund projects like the streetcars. So even if FTA doesn't like to fund it, Congress does.

Anyway, I'm glad they'll cancel all the Charlotte stations on the North line. Diversity would create quite a stir.

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I had heard that someone was looking to develop that very desolate area where the station is supposed to go near Harris. It's actually a good thing then.

I think with the number of developers that stood up for the North Line, and the lack of anyone of that caliber for the NE line, there is going to be a huge amount of pressure to go ahead to do whatever it takes to get the North line built as soon as possible.

I also predict that costs are going to blow up the plan to build the NE line. My guess, and Phillips alluded to it, is they may end up resurrecting the phased approach to that line to make it more palatable from a cost perspective. Even if they get federal and state funding for 50%, it means the city is going to have to cough up $500M (assuming the real cost of the line is $1B) and I just don't see that happening. Since we started this topic, the projected cost of the NE line has jumped from $450M. to $600M and now $750M, and they haven't even done any design work on it yet.

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Really, at this point, CATS should be crying 'no money' and start pursuing private funds on all lines! The North line is really far ahead with developers considering funds for stations and so forth. I would expect CATS and the city to ask Crescent to help build the City Blvd station around the rumored IKEA and vast mixed use development going there. I would also expect them to pursue developer assistance with the 27th St and 36th St stations in NoDa, where development is starting to take off. They should also definitely be pursuing naming rights and plaster ad space all over. It can be tastefully done, and is quite a bit more urban.

By the way, it would be a huge loss for the region if the Derita station is dropped. Derita has a lot of potential, but it'll take more to jump start it. It is also very close to the University Research Park, and serves the tens of thousands of jobs much better than the NE line. A shuttle loop could very easily connect them.

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....

By the way, it would be a huge loss for the region if the Derita station is dropped. Derita has a lot of potential, but it'll take more to jump start it. It is also very close to the University Research Park, and serves the tens of thousands of jobs much better than the NE line. A shuttle loop could very easily connect them.

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