2030 Transit Plan

[MZT]

Charlotte would need to make MANY road improvements to Derita's 2 lane and no-escape-lane roads. I would like to see the station built - but can understand why it may be high cost, low return.

[dubone]

Maybe they should just mark it a future station like Mooresville and build it with Phase II. I'm not tied to it so much that I think it should be forced through in Phase I if it has little ridership (if that is what the models showed) and little development. The roadway improvements in Derita are all on the books, but they'll likely be a decade away so a station delay might be appropriate for that reason, too. An outright cancelation of this station, though, would be a total shame.

[monsoon]

It's my guess that Phase I ridership is going to far exceed projections. Years ago in the mid-90s when they ran the demonstation DMU from Huntersville to downtown, they offered paid trips for people to get on and try it out. I believe that over 4000 people came and did this and they had to turn away people. During this period there were maybe 5000 people in Huntersville. It was because of the publicity of this train that the transit tax was approved.

[dubone]

I agree with you that projections are unfairly conservative. At the same time, though, the ridership is also based on capacity and times and market going from those station areas to downtown. Cost cuts seem to have reduced the North line to just peak hours. With the capacity of the trains, and the number of times it is run, there is a limit to how many people can fit, regardless of how many people might live in the area.

A one time event to check it out would not really be predictive of the number of people who would weave it into their daily schedules. Those people would need to make it to the station every day, and plan to walk to whereever they work downtown from Gateway station. Those factors all add up, and keep limiting the market. That is why commuter rail's numbers aren't very high, as it very much a point A to point B system with limited times and capacity. That is opposed to the streetcar or the light rail, which run all day through dense neighborhoods and stop near many institutional and employment centers outside of downtown. They also have multiple stops downtown to serve different employer locations within downtown.

There was recently a big hubbub about changing the express route destinations downtown, causing people working at some employers to walk an extra block. How many blocks would people need to walk to Duke, Wachovia, Bank of America, the Government District from Gateway station? That is after waiting in traffic to get to the station in the suburbs, finding parking at the station, waiting for the low-frequency train schedule, and riding the dozens of miles on the train. In another thread, there was a belief that transit riders wouldn't walk 3 blocks to the streetcar. Well, Gateway is 5-6 blocks from Tryon at its closest point. I'm sure many will do it, but it is a very limited market, that gives some credence to the 4k riders/day, and less initially.

Metro, you have criticized the design of the system before as focusing too much on downtown. As you don't work downtown, I presume that you would not have much opportunity to ride this line. Cutting out Derita would cut out the potential for URP riders, which I know quite a few people who work in URP and live around LKN. I think there are many others that support the train to their town in general, but wouldn't be able to ride it very often. The towns might be growing fast, and support the trains, but it doesn't mean that will translate to daily train ridership.

For all the criticism mounted onto the streetcar and blue line, it certain would be much easier to work into a daily schedule, and goes to many more locations closer to major employers.

I still want the N line to be built, but its priority was based on a voting structure that favored suburban towns and not based on rational science.

[monsoon]

There is a thread in the polls forum that debates the effectiveness of Street Cars as a mass transit option. The general consensus is they are nothing more than glorified electric buses and don't provide much over standard bus service, Yet they are extremely expensive to impliment. For the central avenue corridor, they are talking about spending $265M to gain 3000 extra riders than what the bus currently provides. This is the reason the FTA will not approve this line and specifically tries to discourage street car proposals.

It's my guess the streetcar options were thrown out here as a red herring and to placate the East & West. Now that it has been post poned for more than a decade(s), a different set of officials are going to have to deal with the real decision on what to do with both lines. It's my guess that neither will be built. After the North and NE are dealt with, they are going to be back to looking at the SE line again, and I think all the stops will be pulled out to make that LRT and the Streetcars will be post poned again. They will keep post poning them 'till they disappear.

In terms of the North line's ability to attract riders keep in mind that ridership on the North express line is the greatest in the entire metro, and because they continue to add riders every month, 77X has now grown to 4 lines, 53X, 48X, 77X and 83X. At the two stations in Huntersville, there are people waiting to get onto the buses. I think this is a good indication. I think more would ride these buses, but unfortunately they get stuck on I-77 like all the other vehicles. A faster train is only going to add more riders, quickly.

In terms of the voting structure, I take note the vote for this plan was unanimous by all MTC members. And there has already been $2.3B in TOD announced for this line so the "science" is very valid. No other line, including the South LRT have had this kind of money thrown at it. The North line makes perfect sense for the goals that one has for mass transit.

[Durhamite]

Why has commuter rail been proposed for the North Corridor vs LRT? Wouldn't that seem a better remedy given the TOD studies, etc?

[monsoon]

Why has commuter rail been proposed for the North Corridor vs LRT? Wouldn't that seem a better remedy given the TOD studies, etc?

[dubone]

1k people already ride express bus each day, so the north line has the same issue of being expensive with not many incremental riders. Are electric busses not transit? The streetcar provides higher capacity and fixed guideway, serving the high density and high volume of transit riders as well as economic development. Somehow, every development with a vague proximity to the north line gets counted as though there are no other factors besides the rail. But not in central Charlotte.

[monsoon]

They can't expand the express bus lines much more because of I-77. And for most riders that live North of exit 23, riding the bus downtown takes longer than diving a car due to the sad state of that highway. So the question becomes this.

Do you spend $250M now to expand I-77 knowing that will be a short term solution to the traffic or do you sepnd $250M to build a train that will allow growth to move away from the highway as a transit corridor? $2.3 Billion in announced TOD makes this a no-brainer.

Or do you spend $265M to inprove transit down an already built corridor where the only benefit is to add 3000 more riders to the line? It will not generate any significant TOD over what is already there.

I think the answer to that question is pretty clear.

[cinco]

Metro, you have criticized the design of the system before as focusing too much on downtown. As you don't work downtown, I presume that you would not have much opportunity to ride this line. Cutting out Derita would cut out the potential for URP riders, which I know quite a few people who work in URP and live around LKN. I think there are many others that support the train to their town in general, but wouldn't be able to ride it very often. The towns might be growing fast, and support the trains, but it doesn't mean that will translate to daily train ridership.

For all the criticism mounted onto the streetcar and blue line, it certain would be much easier to work into a daily schedule, and goes to many more locations closer to major employers.

I still want the N line to be built, but its priority was based on a voting structure that favored suburban towns and not based on rational science.

[uptownliving]

The MTC vote last night directs CATS to get started on both the North and NorthEast lines....however the NorthEast line will take a lot longer to design and construct since it is much more complicated than the North Line.

[cinco]

The MTC vote last night directs CATS to get started on both the North and NorthEast lines....however the NorthEast line will take a lot longer to design and construct since it is much more complicated than the North Line.

[ChiefJoJo]

I attended the meeting with dubone, uptownliving, Miesian Corners, and Mobuchu... I have to say the deal struck was the best compromise. I'm pretty much neutral on this since I'm an "outsider" but I have always like the North line for its low cost, easy implementation, and good north Meck land use planning (excellent TOD potential). At the same time, the NE line is the most able to meet New Starts criteria, so it makes sense to push that forward if possible.

All of the political posturing from the audience/speakers was classic. The guy who spoke of "implied promises" and that some sort of racist decision-making was taking place if the streetcar was not picked was shot down later on by McCrory and others thankfully (what a load of crap). The guy that talked about "out of the box thinking" obviously didn't have a clue either. He said the South Line was being built outside-in instead of inside-out. Um, lines are built one at a time for a reason--so they can qualify for federal funding. Did he want some sort of half-assed hybrid of the South, NE and Norht built all at once? I had to laugh at all the people who said they were "promised" streetcar by 2009 or some other nonsense. I was very happy that McCrory took some time to explain that at no point did anyone officially promise anything and that all final decisions on future projects would be made by future MTC boards, and subject to approval by the City of Charlotte pending a debt analysis. In other words, this isn't 100% final at all.

Key points to remember:

• The North line has no confirmed "other (private) funding source" as of yet.

• Neither the North or the NE Lines have any guaranteed 25% state funding at this point.

• The NE Line also has no guaranteed 50% federal funding at this point.

[ChiefJoJo]

Charlotte would need to make MANY road improvements to Derita's 2 lane and no-escape-lane roads.

[cyrusuncc]

Although i'm glad to see the light rail moving along nicely, i was looking forward to the streetcar possibility. I like the idea of a tight knit mass transit core first, then extend out for the commuters.

My feelings are the light rail lines are designed more for commuting than anything else. I would love to live, work, and play around uptown without having to use my car.... I suppose my vision differs from the MTC board's vision.

[monsoon]

..... In other words, this isn't 100% final at all.

.....

[dubone]

The TOD in North Meck is great. But it isn't fair to say greenfield semidense developments in the suburbs are the only economic development that counts. The streetcar line was well on its was to creating infill, densification, and revitalization. There were many developers with real projects that spoke yesterday. Somehow we can count the value of projects in Huntersville but not the projects in the urban core. That is not applying an even standard. Also, why are new riders more important?

[monsoon]

.... Also, why are new riders more important?

[dubone]

I didn't realize it was controversial to call the area with a few miles of downtown, with the highest population densities in the region 'urban core'. Fixed rail transit, including streetcar spurs development. With TOD zoning and higher land values in town, that development will be much more dense, and that new density will bring new riders. But with fixed guideway, you get more riders and more development. This phenomenon isn't somehow limited by magic to Huntersville. It is national.

[49er]

Because overall ridership has been dropping on CATS. Last month if fell 3.1% Of course CATS isn't so quick to release those numbers.

[monsoon]

.... With TOD zoning and higher land values in town, that development will be much more dense, and that new density will bring new riders. But with fixed guideway, you get more riders and more development. This phenomenon isn't somehow limited by magic to Huntersville. It is national.

[ChiefJoJo]

I agree that the NE line should be phased to soften the financial blow. Just extending to 36th would be great.

[dubone]

Okay, that is a very valid point. In general, I was discounting suburban greenfield development as less desirable than infill which acts as the next level of densification. But I do agree now that there is a lot of value to the region to build up the northern towns in a dense pattern to begin with. I guess I'm just still at the point where I want both to happen but for different reasons.

[monsoon]

I honestly do think that street cars are worth the money. They instead need to figure out how to get an eventual light rail line, maybe a spur, out to Elizabeth and to CPCC.

[monsoon]

Mayor Knox was quoted after the MTC meeting in regards to the North line being moved to the front of the line, with this:

"If it weren't going to be successful, we should have pulled out before (Wednesday)",

I think they are pretty confident now they have a mandate to make this line successful.

Someone else mentioned to me this week from East Charlotte they were a little more than miffed when all of them took the time to go down there to speak on behalf of the streetcar, and as soon as everyone was finished, Helms immediately said. "Let's vote on the plan that we worked out at 4:30"..... (more or less) In otherwords, why have a public hearing when they had already decided what to do? Moves such as this cause the public to become disengaged from the process.