St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[Padman]

I've seen some nice examples in California where developers were given density bonuses or access to low-cost loans when a percentage of apartment units were dedicated for holders of Section 8 vouchers. The programs can work very well and to my thinking are preferable to the old practice of spatial segregation by income. The best way to avoid large ghettos of low income housing is to not create them in the first place.

[brikkman]

I've seen some nice examples in California where developers were given density bonuses or access to low-cost loans when a percentage of apartment units were dedicated for holders of Section 8 vouchers. The programs can work very well and to my thinking are preferable to the old practice of spatial segregation by income. The best way to avoid large ghettos of low income housing is to not create them in the first place.

HEAR HEAR!!

Vote for PADMAN....

I totally agree man. I think everyone agrees that the only reason this was built in that location in the first place was to support the workforce back in the day. Because the general ideals have left the concept and most in that area do not wish to better themselves past it, the city/we feel like we need to rebuild the same concept in a more modern style. If you look back in some post on this board, you'll find some individuals who do not want to take up residence near them at all. Incorporating them in that way will continue to bring DT down mainly due to the concept I listed above. I would destory the area and disperse them throughout the city with a heavy checks and balances.

[URBbum]

Well said Padman. Now the greater question is will the area be willing to research these modes/bonuses? I've heard of such successes elsewhere, but nowhere close to here and there may be an underlying reason that is so.

[Marco757]

http://www.city-journal.org/

This is an excellent site that I just happened upon. Two articles that I just read on the site are below....very interesting and both ring true. Note these stories are not about Norfolk, but public housing in other cities. Any form of permanent public housing in St. Paul's Quandrant will doom the area. I don't care how many fugly looking town centerish buildings they erect with their oh so lovely colorful awnings. All the public housing in Norfolk (not just downtown) should be torn down and the land opened up for bid. Then watch Norfolk flourish and the crime rate plummet. Why can't city leaders speak the truth anymore...it's ashame.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_2_how_charlotte.html

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_1_how_...ic_housing.html

[Sky06]

http://www.city-journal.org/

This is an excellent site that I just happened upon. Two articles that I just read on the site are below....very interesting and both ring true. Note these stories are not about Norfolk, but public housing in other cities. Any form of permanent public housing in St. Paul's Quandrant will doom the area. I don't care how many fugly looking town centerish buildings they erect with their oh so lovely colorful awnings. All the public housing in Norfolk (not just downtown) should be torn down and the land opened up for bid. Then watch Norfolk flourish and the crime rate plummet. Why can't city leaders speak the truth anymore...it's ashame.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/10_2_how_charlotte.html

http://www.city-journal.org/html/13_1_how_...ic_housing.html

PROPOSAL:

I agree with the comments above. This is a critical point in Norfolk's future. It can make or break the city. Maybe the concept above can be implemented across the city in smaller pieces.

I propose someone put together a package with recommendations, a few examples as above, for presentation to the Downtown Norfolk Council. They can then study it a bit more and make a formal recommendation to the city. This has to be an organized and consolidated effort.

Edited June 11, 2008 by Sky06

[Sky06]

If you look up HOPE VI on web, you'll find a number of initiatives across country involving demolition of public housing and replacement with similar vouchers cited above.

HUD

[Sky06]

A nice article on history of public housing and various theories for fixing existing problems. Long but informative.

Theories

[urbanlife]

That was pretty much my immediate thought. It is a wonderful concept on paper, but getting people to purchase market-rate homes that are next to public housing is extremely tough. I will be honest enough to admit that I would not plunk down the money for a market-rate home in that area.

I'd prefer it if Norfolk focused mainly on office buildings, retail, and entertainment in the St. Paul's Quadrant rather than housing. But, it is obvious that housing is the direction that Norfolk wants to go with this area.

Actually we have a neighborhood like this right next to downtown...which now is about as urban as downtown. It is mostly full of high income housing, but throughout it is section 8 housing and rate controlled housing. Mixing up incomes and dispersing poverty is always a good thing, it prevents ghettos from being created. This is a good move forward for Norfolk and I hope it turns out to be a something that can really re-energize the city.

Nowadays, smaller cities like Norfolk have to rely on increasing their housing in their downtowns to make their downtowns work. Office buildings only provide for a downtown m-f 7a-7p. Housing increases the demand for more things to do at all hours. So in the end, a project like this would make downtown a much safer and much more active city, so you guys really shouldnt knock it just because it will also include the poor.

I didnt see page 16 when I made this comment, it is good too see others understanding what it takes to prevent ghettos in the first place.

Edited June 11, 2008 by urbanlife

[scm]

If you look up HOPE VI on web, you'll find a number of initiatives across country involving demolition of public housing and replacement with similar vouchers cited above.

HUD

Basically, that is what Portsmouth did with the former residents of Jeffery Wilson Homes.

[scm]

I had to laugh at Reid Greenmun's comment:

I see the Socialist/Communists are alive and well and hanging out on Prada Online

I doubt he was talking about buying designer purses on-line. I also doubt he has a clue as to what the Prada brand sells. I also don't think he made the stupidest comment of the bunch.

[vdogg]

I had to laugh at Reid Greenmun's comment:

I doubt he was talking about buying designer purses on-line. I also doubt he has a clue as to what the Prada brand sells. I also don't think he made the stupidest comment of the bunch.

Yeah, the blogging community likes to call it the "Virginia Pravda", though I think Henry may have coined that joke first. While the pilot is liberal, comparing it with the Soviet Unions leading paper is a bit sensationalistic.

[VAGATOR]

I agree with others, this maybe the most important project in the history of Norfolk. They must look outside the box, and create a true mixed income community, and not try to dress up the projects. I hope they hire outside consultant. I hope Norfolk doesn't screw it up, but I'm not hopeful.

Edited June 12, 2008 by VAGATOR

[Henry_Ryto]

Yeah, the blogging community likes to call it the "Virginia Pravda", though I think Henry may have coined that joke first. While the pilot is liberal, comparing it with the Soviet Unions leading paper is a bit sensationalistic.

No, that one predates me.

[Henry_Ryto]

While I would prefer that too there are political realities here that must be considered. The people in Tidewater Gardens must go somewhere. Anywhere that Norfolk would try to move them too they'd meet with considerable resistance and public protest. At the end of the day, the only viable solution may be to incorporate the public housing in a mixed income setting, thereby revitalizing the area and diluting the concentrated poverty that exist there currently.

Two underlying truths:

1. There aren't vacant units elsewhere for them, so new units have to be built somewhere.

2. You're not going to get 5 votes on Council unless the current residents are accomodated.

Just as Tidewater Gardens has provided blue collar labor for downtown, the new units can, too.

[lil-bear]

I hope that the city will allow a few office towers to be built in the quadrant. Any tower built over there will have excellent views of the rest of downtown!

[Sky06]

Mixing up incomes and dispersing poverty is always a good thing, it prevents ghettos from being created. This is a good move forward for Norfolk and I hope it turns out to be a something that can really re-energize the city.

I know I'm being wishy-washy on this. Ideally, I'd like to see an extension of downtown business offices plus a few small parks. But I do have to agree with urban above. Since it appears this is the direction Norfolk is headed, hopefully this will be a [HUGE] step up from what's there now. Norfolk has lived with this for years, so any change is likely to be an improvement.

But I also hope that the same or better plans can be applied to some of the other section 8 housing on the other side of Brambleton Avenue. That needs to be addressed as well.

Edited June 12, 2008 by Sky06

[brikkman]

I won't believe that until they build it. If I recall correctly, they did the samething with board creek and look at what we ended up with....

I personally think it will be developed into 2 to 4 story apartments, some colonel style homes, strip malls and a big hole in ground they call art or fountain. You would think they would take the opportunity build something signature, something that draws more people into DT, but they won't.

[urbanlife]

I won't believe that until they build it. If I recall correctly, they did the samething with board creek and look at what we ended up with....

I personally think it will be developed into 2 to 4 story apartments, some colonel style homes, strip malls and a big hole in ground they call art or fountain. You would think they would take the opportunity build something signature, something that draws more people into DT, but they won't.

I think that is what everyone in here is worried about.

But I will say, this style of section 8 housing needs to go because it was a horrible way to make anyone live. It would be nice to see a redevelopment of each one of these housing project and working these new neighborhoods back into the city grid and mixing the densities and incomes.

The heavier retail and commercial should be along St Paul Blvd or close to it. The rest of it should be dense residential (5 to 10 stories average) with small retail and park blocks. Keeping most of the height at that range seems to make people happier, it allows them to live in denser areas and now feel overpowered. This would also be a great area for Nofolk to focus on first time buyers. By the time this thing seriously gets up and running, the market should of softened or began a new upswing and first time buyers are the best people to have populating an area like this because they tend to take a new love for everything because they are finally homeowners. Renters are not bad, they just have a habit of not caring about an area if their neighbors dont either. So if the area was 50 to 60 percent owners and the rest renters, it would definitely reshape that neighborhood and give Norfolk an area it could really be proud of that doesnt have to rely on a mall or a waterfront.

[vdogg]

I personally think it will be developed into 2 to 4 story apartments, some colonel style homes, strip malls and a big hole in ground they call art or fountain. You would think they would take the opportunity build something signature, something that draws more people into DT, but they won't.

Ouch, what's with the pessimism today? It's not going to be that bad. Broad Creek always had single family homes as part of its plan to begin with. The urban portion you referred to is still planned and is working it's way through the planning commission right now. Realistically, I think you'll see a dense collection of 15-20 story buildings with the tallest fronting St. Pauls and a step back from there. This area is 1.1 times the size of downtown meaning when completed it will double the size of our current downtown. I doubt they're going to fill that entire area with suburban Va. Beach McMansions.

[brikkman]

I know this maybe a little off topic, but why can't Norfolk get something built in that area?

Hell VB TC did it, they drop a cheesecake factory and PF Chang smack in the middle of it even before all the other stuff went up. Are Norfolk prices to develop that so outrageous that they would develop outside of the city metro?

I would have thought that someone like Cheesecake factory or Hardrock would build a structure in the middle and watch the area grow. Crime can't be that bad when you level an entire area.....

Are we really strapped for space that we can not under any circumstance relocate the residence there? I just can not believe that is true.

Ouch, what's with the pessimism today? It's not going to be that bad. Broad Creek always had single family homes as part of its plan to begin with. The urban portion you referred to is still planned and is working it's way through the planning commission right now. Realistically, I think you'll see a dense collection of 15-20 story buildings with the tallest fronting St. Pauls and a step back from there. This area is 1.1 times the size of downtown meaning when completed it will double the size of our current downtown. I doubt they're going to fill that entire area with suburban Va. Beach McMansions.

I just can not see how that will happen. They screwed up so much of the land I can't see them building it like they claim. Lets define board Creek's area first. Are we referring to the land located directly between Va.beach Blvd and Princess Ann Rd?

Or are we referring to the area across from Princess Ann as well? It was my understanding that those two areas are different.

Edited June 12, 2008 by brikkman

[rusthebuss]

I think that they need to spend the money on teaching people how to get into those places on their own. Giving people a place with less effort than a normal middle class does not help them but hurts them. I grew up poor and had to fight my way up with hardly help at all. I think first they need to fix the broken system. People in general don't take care of something they didn't have to earn. Its also not fair to people that are at that line to not get help but have to scramble and don't get the same opportunity to live in those places. Its almost rewarding someone for not trying. There is so many programs helping people to get on their feet but most don't want to utilize them. I've seen people that want to get out, get out. Alot of bums are there because they want to live like that, the other are mentally ill and its not their fault. People in general are lazy and don't want to work for what they want. They want it given to us for nothing. Us Americans need to change this attitude in our society. People that are on welfare should be forced to work for the city or state that they live in and have limited time that they are allowed to be on this. I'm not saying that all people are like this. Some have no choice and I have no problem helping people that are disabled and physically can't take care of themselves. I think if they are going to allow people from the section 8, there should be a list of things for them to qualify to live in that location and needs to be monitored. They must learn to own the unit and take care of it properly. They should have no criminal background that is violent. I don't have a problem helping with someone out but they should have a certain time frame to get off of the welfare program. If they fail they need to move out of there.

[Henry_Ryto]

I think that they need to spend the money on teaching people how to get into those places on their own. Giving people a place with less effort than a normal middle class does not help them but hurts them. I grew up poor and had to fight my way up with hardly help at all. I think first they need to fix the broken system. People in general don't take care of something they didn't have to earn. Its also not fair to people that are at that line to not get help but have to scramble and don't get the same opportunity to live in those places. Its almost rewarding someone for not trying. There is so many programs helping people to get on their feet but most don't want to utilize them. I've seen people that want to get out, get out. Alot of bums are there because they want to live like that, the other are mentally ill and its not their fault. People in general are lazy and don't want to work for what they want. They want it given to us for nothing. Us Americans need to change this attitude in our society. People that are on welfare should be forced to work for the city or state that they live in and have limited time that they are allowed to be on this. I'm not saying that all people are like this. Some have no choice and I have no problem helping people that are disabled and physically can't take care of themselves. I think if they are going to allow people from the section 8, there should be a list of things for them to qualify to live in that location and needs to be monitored. They must learn to own the unit and take care of it properly. They should have no criminal background that is violent. I don't have a problem helping with someone out but they should have a certain time frame to get off of the welfare program. If they fail they need to move out of there.

As a disabled person on Section 8, I can tell you a criminal background check is part of the certification process. Either a felony or drug offense disqualifies you.

[Sky06]

Does anyone like my idea of making some recommendations to the DNC for further talks with the city? Talking about it here won't solve the problem. Do we have any members?

[supernoga]

Certainly if this thing does actually go, it would be nice to fix the grid of DT as best as possible too. I understand that there are some old roads as part of it, but seriously, lets drop some of the street names and have a road that is actually longer than 4 blocks long before it changes. For example, connect the two halves of Charlotte St without a Wood St in the middle, extend Freemason all the way to Tidewater Dr.

Lets get some kind of navigational and driveable grid out there.

Wishful thinking, but...Once all of these tall buildings go up, it might be hard to find your way around

[rusthebuss]

Does anyone like my idea of making some recommendations to the DNC for further talks with the city? Talking about it here won't solve the problem. Do we have any members?

I think Chesapeake Pirate is a member