St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[rusthebuss]

Did you attend? What's the scoop?

today is only the 19th!

[vtfan18]

St. Paul's Quadrant public meeting Thursday, May 21 at the Murray Center on Brambleton. Registration begins at 630. Presentation begins at 7.

I plan on attending but I can already tell I'll walk out of there feeling powerless and completely frustrated. It's amazing to realize how dumb (I literally mean dumb) business owners on Granby St and around St Pauls sound when they stand at events such as these and give their opinion on what should be incorporated. I heard it yesterday at a meeting about the closing of Granby St for light rail work. It makes you wonder how people stay in business!?!?

[lil-bear]

I plan on attending but I can already tell I'll walk out of there feeling powerless and completely frustrated. It's amazing to realize how dumb (I literally mean dumb) business owners on Granby St and around St Pauls sound when they stand at events such as these and give their opinion on what should be incorporated. I heard it yesterday at a meeting about the closing of Granby St for light rail work. It makes you wonder how people stay in business!?!?

Granby Street will only be closed at Charlotte. Thats where LR will intersect with Granby. I'm sure there will be detours. If that part of Granby is closed, I don't think that it be closed long to be too concerned!

[varider]

I plan on attending but I can already tell I'll walk out of there feeling powerless and completely frustrated. It's amazing to realize how dumb (I literally mean dumb) business owners on Granby St and around St Pauls sound when they stand at events such as these and give their opinion on what should be incorporated. I heard it yesterday at a meeting about the closing of Granby St for light rail work. It makes you wonder how people stay in business!?!?

Expecting a full report tonight.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/05/norfolk-ad...uls-development

NORFOLK

Church parking and whether residents will be able to remain in their neighborhood emerged as the biggest concerns at a meeting on the city's vision to remake the eastern side of St. Paul's Boulevard downtown.

City officials displayed the preliminary plans to about 100 residents, business owners and church members Thursday night. The ambitious vision for the area known as St. Paul's Quadrant includes tearing down the Tidewater Gardens public housing complex and building a dense mixture of housing, retail, office and recreational areas.

The area spans about 90 acres of mostly city-owned land between Brambleton and City Hall avenues.

City officials said all 618 public housing units will be replaced and that residents who meet Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing Authority relocation criteria will be able to return.

While the criteria have not yet been developed, Donnell Brown, NRHA assistant executive director of housing, said they probably would include a provision that tenants work, something that's not required to live there now. She added that programs will be in place to help residents meet the new criteria.

A longstanding concern in the community and among NRHA board members has been how redevelopment would affect Tidewater Gardens' 1,500 residents. The concept includes developing the housing in phases to allow residents to be absorbed into other public housing.

The vision also preserves the area's five churches.

Frank Duke, the city's planning director, assured church members at the meeting that parking decks would be part of the plan but that details as to locations and numbers have not been developed.

"We're going to have to deal with the parking," he said. "We know that's an issue."

The vision includes about 2,000 economically mixed housing units with half of them priced at the market rate and the rest either subsidized or affordably priced. It also includes shops, offices and recreation and community centers.

Another goal is to reconnect the area to downtown by offering safe pedestrian crossings at St. Paul's Boulevard.

City officials are seeking consensus on the vision so they can start on a specific development plan. A committee that includes stakeholders would be formed to offer advice. No cost figures were discussed. The redevelopment could take 15 years to complete, Duke said.

Edited May 22, 2009 by varider

[brikkman]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/05/norfolk-ad...uls-development

Wow, "WHAT A FEELING"

Wonder were some of boards preconceived notions are now.....................................

[mistermetaj]

Wow, "WHAT A FEELING"

Wonder were some of boards preconceived notions are now.....................................

Requiring the residents to work is a great thing. If that indeed does become the case and everyone is working, I will have to retract some of my comments. There is hope afterall.

It woudl have been a travesty if people didn't have to work (Tidewater Gardens) and still got a place there. This makes me feel better about the situation. Not great, but better.

[brikkman]

Requiring the residents to work is a great thing. If that indeed does become the case and everyone is working, I will have to retract some of my comments. There is hope afterall.

It woudl have been a travesty if people didn't have to work (Tidewater Gardens) and still got a place there. This makes me feel better about the situation. Not great, but better.

I would like to see a little more detail on that proposal, I think they will circumvent the system. I would like to see provisions in there that would prevent them from circumventing the system (it is probably the biggest problem with Norfolk's welfare laws).

[varider]

Exactly what I was saying. If you make the residents of the low income housing work, they won't be sitting at home all day with nothing to do, therefore making them commit less crimes. I'm sure most middle class citizens wouldn't mind living amongst poor working class people. I think the plan is great as is.

[CaveMaN]

I'm sure most middle class citizens wouldn't mind living amongst poor working class people.

In a perfect world you would indeed be correct... unfortunately humanity is made up of all types of people...and a lot of the middle class would really not like to live near working class individuals. It's amazing that people with different priorities in life, or different skill sets can't get along in the same areas, but it's a reality of human existence nowadays. Why do you think all these subdivisions were created in the first place in the suburbs, so people could live their segregated lives. Now that lifestyle is falling apart, but I think more people will go down with the ship, then jump off and move to a lower income area.

Just my thoughts. Take them as you will.

[mikeas]

Subsidizing the working poor is helping out the companies that under pay their employees. Personally I'd rather pay $10 for a fast food combo and have McDonalds pay their employees a fair wage.

[CaveMaN]

Subsidizing the working poor is helping out the companies that under pay their employees. Personally I'd rather pay $10 for a fast food combo and have McDonalds pay their employees a fair wage.

Very true... When the minimum wage went up (last year I believe) all that happened was my wendy's meal became smaller. But... I always say, if you're unhappy with your pay, its time to look for a new job... there's plenty of construction positions requiring no education that pay more then any fast food joints do... speaking from experience here! Edited May 22, 2009 by CaveMaN

[urbanlife]

Very true... When the minimum wage went up (last year I believe) all that happened was my wendy's meal became smaller. But... I always say, if you're unhappy with your pay, its time to look for a new job... there's plenty of construction positions requiring no education that pay more then any fast food joints do... speaking from experience here!

Wow, it has been so long for me since I lived in a right to work state, minimum wage here is $9 an hour and the only time you make that little is when you are in a tip based job.

In a perfect world you would indeed be correct... unfortunately humanity is made up of all types of people...and a lot of the middle class would really not like to live near working class individuals. It's amazing that people with different priorities in life, or different skill sets can't get along in the same areas, but it's a reality of human existence nowadays. Why do you think all these subdivisions were created in the first place in the suburbs, so people could live their segregated lives. Now that lifestyle is falling apart, but I think more people will go down with the ship, then jump off and move to a lower income area.

Just my thoughts. Take them as you will.

I think it is safe to say those that have flocked to the suburbs and enjoy living there arent going to be wanting to move to St Paul Quadrant for any reason, regardless of who the neighbors would be. It is a much safer bet that you are going to see people that want to be living in downtown or an urban neighborhood be the ones moving there.

[mistermetaj]

In a perfect world you would indeed be correct... unfortunately humanity is made up of all types of people...and a lot of the middle class would really not like to live near working class individuals. It's amazing that people with different priorities in life, or different skill sets can't get along in the same areas, but it's a reality of human existence nowadays. Why do you think all these subdivisions were created in the first place in the suburbs, so people could live their segregated lives. Now that lifestyle is falling apart, but I think more people will go down with the ship, then jump off and move to a lower income area.

Just my thoughts. Take them as you will.

I agree with you completely. There is latent and active, concious and subconcious racism and classicism in every part of this country (and the world).

As for the suburbs, I wouldn't say they are falling apart at all, only that people are starting the see the convenience and efficiency of urban living again. The burbs will never go away. We'll never live like Europeans (they have suburban type areas too, more like towns or villages) in the US because there is a very good lifestyle in the suburbs.

Afterall, for the price you pay at some of these places in DT Norfolk or penthouses in NYC, you could get a much bigger living space in a good area with a yard. There is still a lot of good that comes from the suburbs and I would dare say it is better to raise a family in the burbs than any downtown area.

[CaveMaN]

I agree with you completely. There is latent and active, concious and subconcious racism and classicism in every part of this country (and the world).

As for the suburbs, I wouldn't say they are falling apart at all, only that people are starting the see the convenience and efficiency of urban living again. The burbs will never go away. We'll never live like Europeans (they have suburban type areas too, more like towns or villages) in the US because there is a very good lifestyle in the suburbs.

Afterall, for the price you pay at some of these places in DT Norfolk or penthouses in NYC, you could get a much bigger living space in a good area with a yard. There is still a lot of good that comes from the suburbs and I would dare say it is better to raise a family in the burbs than any downtown area.

My opinion is slightly biased because I'm still only 25 years old, single, and have no family of any kind within 1,000 miles of here.I would agree that raising children in the burbs is probably better for the majority of persons... (although the movie Traffic comes to mind for the select few though, similar to my hometown outside Chicago).

I just remember when I first moved to the region, and lived with my g/f & her family at the time (I was 21). I lived in the Riverwalk subdivision in Chesapeake, and the property values made me laugh, places for 600...700k... that where some of the shottiest construction I've ever seen. I also worked at the time for Ashdon Builders... a standard cookie-cutter overpriced suburban single family home contractor... and it really frustrated me to see the poor standards of overpriced building construction... Also, I just hated the sprawled out feel of that whole area... not sure what positives actually come out of the suburbs...

I'd much rather live in the downtown area, and lack the yard, the garage, and the gigantic carbon footprint I wish more people shared this ideal, but, what are ya gonna do-

[varider]

The Pilot commented that this project will take fifteen years. That's pretty speedy if you ask me. In 15 years, Downtown will look nothing like it does now. It will be so much bigger, ten times more urban, and an overall way better city. I'd say population nearing 10000.. National restaurant chains... Better retail market... More corporate jobs... If you don't know by now, I like to make predictions.

[varider]

http://www.norfolk.gov/Planning/PDFFiles/SPQ_Vision.pdf

POWERPOINT FROM THE MAY 21 MEETING.

[varider]

On page 10, there are a couple skyscrapers that look to be about 800 feet tall! I'm amazed with how beautiful this plan is.

Edited May 25, 2009 by varider

[urbanlife]

On page 10, there are a couple skyscrapers that look to be about 800 feet tall! I'm amazed with how beautiful this plan is.

It is a great little rendering, but I am not sure how accurate it is though...besides, my guess, it is nothing more than the artist adding in a signature tower at the Snyder lot.

Definitely a great plan overall. I like the layout of the area, will create some interesting blocks. I love that it sounds like most of the area will be about 4-8 stories high, consistent density is better than a couple skyline towers.

Though one thing I am curious with this plan, is this just a masterplan of what the city would like to see happen there or is this going to have financial backing from the city and possibly private developers? I am all for planning something through like this because it is a smart move for the city to be doing, I am just wondering if there is an actual possibility of this really happening. (not saying it wont, I am just curious.)

[varider]

Public- Private partnerships. Why couldn't it happen?

edit: what are your guys thoughts on building the subsidized housing closer to tidewater drive, allowing the market rate housing stay near St. Paul's closer to Downtown. I love the density that should be created with the Plan.. The retail looks amazing.. The green space looks relaxing. The architecture looks great. . This thing can't be done soon enough. Hopefully by 2025

Edited May 25, 2009 by varider

[urbanlife]

Public- Private partnerships. Why couldn't it happen?

I didnt say it couldnt happen, those happen all the time in every city...I was just asking, has any private developer been involved with this or is the city just creating a masterplan and will put it out there to see if any private developers want in on it.

[varider]

Good question.

[virginia pe]

I didnt say it couldnt happen, those happen all the time in every city...I was just asking, has any private developer been involved with this or is the city just creating a masterplan and will put it out there to see if any private developers want in on it.

I don't have any special knowledge, but from the way I read it, it is only a vision. There have been no comprehensive economic studies or market studies completed for this area. The portions that the city can control, like the new street grid or the storm water retention pond and recreational areas, have a good chance of happening. But even that is subject to the changing political tides. Unless the city subsidizes construction, the actual buildings could be very different, depending on the economics. Does anyone really believe that if a develop shows up next month with a totally different plan, but he has the $$$, that the city will not go along with him?

For my part, I am severely disappointed with the plan. This is not an expansion of downtown. The way I read slide #24, except for a few odd parcels, the entire quadrant will be devoted to public housing or to recreational spaces and storm water retention to serve the public housing.

Edited May 25, 2009 by virginia pe

[urbanlife]

I don't have any special knowledge, but from the way I read it, it is only a vision. There have been no comprehensive economic studies or market studies completed for this area. The portions that the city can control, like the new street grid or the storm water retention pond and recreational areas, have a good chance of happening. But even that is subject to the changing political tides. Unless the city subsidizes construction, the actual buildings could be very different, depending on the economics. Does anyone really believe that if a develop shows up next month with a totally different plan, but he has the $$$, that the city will not go along with him?

For my part, I am severely disappointed with the plan. This is not an expansion of downtown. The way I read slide #24, except for a few odd parcels, the entire quadrant will be devoted to public housing or to recreational spaces and storm water retention to serve the public housing.

Slide 21 says differently, so the way I read slide 24 is that it is saying low income housing would be spread throughout the development.

[Rokk]

I remain unimpressed. Norfolk's vision for this area is lacking as far as expanding downtown is concerned. I am much more impressed with Va. Beach's vision for their "downtown" area. In twenty-thirty years, Va. Beach may actually become the urban center of Hampton Roads.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Rokk