St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[carolinaboy]

Come on guys. This is a complex and delicate process. The city has to do things slowly and correctly when talking about relocating residents from one area to another. We development nerds sometimes  want things to happen too quickly. This is (Saint Pauls Quad) a LONG TERM CONCEPTUAL PLAN. It will not be redeveloped exactly like any plan that has been created yet. Think of the current plan as a generalized vision. Specific, actionable plans will have to be created probably piece-by-piece (aka Phased) and redevelopment will occur over time, not necessarily driven by the city but by market demand and private development.

 

[BFG]

I don't disagree, it's just they put this on an indefinite hold in 2011 or '12 because residents were concerned. They do need to listen and work with the current people there, but also work on their plan simultaneously and stop putting it on hold every 5 years. 

[urbanlife]

20 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

Come on guys. This is a complex and delicate process. The city has to do things slowly and correctly when talking about relocating residents from one area to another. We development nerds sometimes  want things to happen too quickly. This is (Saint Pauls Quad) a LONG TERM CONCEPTUAL PLAN. It will not be redeveloped exactly like any plan that has been created yet. Think of the current plan as a generalized vision. Specific, actionable plans will have to be created probably piece-by-piece (aka Phased) and redevelopment will occur over time, not necessarily driven by the city but by market demand and private development.

 

I would agree with you on this, but I remember hearing talks about redeveloping this area in the late 90s. Over 15 years is more than enough time to figure out that better, updated housing could be built for the residents and that it should be mixed in with other incomes to help prevent a condensing the poor into one location.

[baobabs727]

Mid to late 90s, indeed. From what I understood at that time, Nordstrom had been told that that entire area (across the street from them!) would be redeveloped. Mayor Fraim made the promise. 

[BFG]

https://pilotonline.com/news/government/local/norfolk-public-housing-communities-face-demolition-for-now-the-city/article_abf4d6b6-52f6-5e1a-9882-4a8292d07398.html

I get the impression that the city doesn't know what it wants to do anymore. There is a way to do SPQ without leaving the three neighborhoods in the cold. The problem is, I thought they knew that already.

[mistermetaj]

On 10/24/2017 at 8:32 AM, carolinaboy said:

Come on guys. This is a complex and delicate process. The city has to do things slowly and correctly when talking about relocating residents from one area to another. We development nerds sometimes  want things to happen too quickly. This is (Saint Pauls Quad) a LONG TERM CONCEPTUAL PLAN. It will not be redeveloped exactly like any plan that has been created yet. Think of the current plan as a generalized vision. Specific, actionable plans will have to be created probably piece-by-piece (aka Phased) and redevelopment will occur over time, not necessarily driven by the city but by market demand and private development.

 

The idea that people on government paid for living get a voice in this entire redevelopment is infuriating. They may have a right to assistance but not the location. Really disappointed with Kenny Alexander. This is all political and not in the best interest of the growth of Norfolk. 

[brikkman]

14 hours ago, mistermetaj said:

The idea that people on government paid for living get a voice in this entire redevelopment is infuriating. They may have a right to assistance but not the location. Really disappointed with Kenny Alexander. This is all political and not in the best interest of the growth of Norfolk. 

The same reason the area has not been redevelop is the exact reason why it will stall now.  I think the true issue is improper planning.  Norfolk has not advanced their agenda despite making improvement over the years. Additionally, I do not believe they as a council have a true vision of what they want "Norfolk" to be.  If you were to ask me, I said Norfolk needs to grow its economics and provide a quality of living that is different than the other 6 cities. Norfolk can not compete with suburban style living and they shouldn't (they just do not have the land to do that). They should focus more on how to improve their economics and appeal.  IMO, there is plenty to do all that with SPQ and if not, throughout the city.  Disperse poverty, its not sexy, but its what you need to do.  The city as massive chunks of property in the east and south. The problem with SPQ is that the best use of land does not directly involve all city property.  Conceptual yes, but I think its link to the bigger problem that Norfolk has with its public housing.  Let's assume for a second if Norfolk bulldozed all of its public housing areas.  Question, would that be adequate land to rebuild the communities they want?  Relocation of citizens, or the temporary relocation of citizens should not be what stops this conceptual design.

One thing is for certain, this is pulling on their heart strings and in their minds, its just best to leave it.  You are going to have to have someone bold to do this and more importantly, have a true vision they are trying to achieve. Kenny maybe a Norfolk man but his heart is too soft to make this kind of decision. Perhaps its not even his decision alone, either way, each of their heart strings are too soft to make any real change to that area. 

Side note, I hate seeing those low aerial photos of Norfolk with Public housing in the foreground and scrapers in the back. Just shows you all the potential the city has failed to realize.  

Edited November 15, 2017 by brikkman

[BFG]

I dunno what to think anymore. Every time they get close to pulling the trigger, they get cold feet at the last minute. Kenny Alexander did an interview with Channel 13 last year, talking about his vision for SPQ...they drove through Tidewater Park as he talked about how he wanted to get started by 2020.

Understandable that he doesn't want to piss off the residents there, and yes, transparency is critical. But you gotta make a move at some point and be open with the residents about the options they will have. The new apartments on Bute and St. Paul are a start.

Totally agree that Norfolk does not need to think suburban, esp. close to downtown. It should be an extension of downtown, or at the very least, similar to Town Center. If you had the Town Center layout where SPQ is supposed to go, the skyline would look awesome from the Interstate.

[urbanlife]

If all that public housing were city blocks full of urban development, Norfolk would have such a big feeling downtown. It is a shame that in all these years nothing has happened.

[Urbanlooker]

11 hours ago, brikkman said:

The same reason the area has not been redevelop is the exact reason why it will stall now.  I think the true issue is improper planning.  Norfolk has not advanced their agenda despite making improvement over the years. Additionally, I do not believe they as a council have a true vision of what they want "Norfolk" to be.  If you were to ask me, I said Norfolk needs to grow its economics and provide a quality of living that is different than the other 6 cities. Norfolk can not compete with suburban style living and they shouldn't (they just do not have the land to do that). They should focus more on how to improve their economics and appeal.  IMO, there is plenty to do all that with SPQ and if not, throughout the city.  Disperse poverty, its not sexy, but its what you need to do.  The city as massive chunks of property in the east and south. The problem with SPQ is that the best use of land does not directly involve all city property.  Conceptual yes, but I think its link to the bigger problem that Norfolk has with its public housing.  Let's assume for a second if Norfolk bulldozed all of its public housing areas.  Question, would that be adequate land to rebuild the communities they want?  Relocation of citizens, or the temporary relocation of citizens should not be what stops this conceptual design.

One thing is for certain, this is pulling on their heart strings and in their minds, its just best to leave it.  You are going to have to have someone bold to do this and more importantly, have a true vision they are trying to achieve. Kenny maybe a Norfolk man but his heart is too soft to make this kind of decision. Perhaps its not even his decision alone, either way, each of their heart strings are too soft to make any real change to that area. 

Side note, I hate seeing those low aerial photos of Norfolk with Public housing in the foreground and scrapers in the back. Just shows you all the potential the city has failed to realize.  

I fully agree with this. Norfolk has to have someone or a group of someones willful enough to just pull the trigger. Do I agree with everything that's in the city's vision for SPQ? No but it's a start. I think for every unit they tear down they should build one does it have to all be in SPQ? No there's land in Fort Norfolk they can build on. However, with this I don't think any building should be all or even majority gov't subsidised units. 

[baobabs727]

During the most recent informal session of Council, the city manager, in response to a question from Tommy Smigiel, declared that the the St. Paul's Quadrant is now being referred to as the "St. Paul's Community."  (2:30:13 mark)

This, apparently after a few previous name changes (heretofore unknown to me), including "Church Place" and "Newton's Creek."

[BFG]

Looks like Council supprts tearing down the neighborhoods, noting that it's necessary in order to achieve its goal of rebuilding. 

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/article_40193087-c1b0-5ffe-8b4e-b9eea0e7969a.html

[vdogg]

The first post in this thread was in 2006. The initial studies date back to the late 90s. Decades have passed and millions have been spent but it looks like Norfolk is finally ready to pull the trigger. This is a big day.

[BFG]

I hope they stop dragging their feet and get the ball rolling on this within the next year. I don't disagree with Council's message that this is necessary to continue developing downtown, and it probably should've happened 15 years ago. Anytime I go to Town Center, I imagine how that footprint could look at SPQ.

But, I don't want it done at the risk of screwing current residents over, so I hope Council keeps its promise to find truly affordable housing for people living in the three neighborhoods. Whether it's downtown or elsewhere in the city, they still deserve a chance. I'm sure a few people in those neighborhoods remember hearing the same thing when Norfolk demolished East Ghent in the mid-70s, then built the luxury townhouses along Princess Anne Rd. If so, I can get why they may be skeptical.

[jeffconn]

20 minutes ago, BFG said:

I hope they stop dragging their feet and get the ball rolling on this within the next year. I don't disagree with Council's message that this is necessary to continue developing downtown, and it probably should've happened 15 years ago. Anytime I go to Town Center, I imagine how that footprint could look at SPQ.

But, I don't want it done at the risk of screwing current residents over, so I hope Council keeps its promise to find truly affordable housing for people living in the three neighborhoods. Whether it's downtown or elsewhere in the city, they still deserve a chance. I'm sure a few people in those neighborhoods remember hearing the same thing when Norfolk demolished East Ghent in the mid-70s, then built the luxury townhouses along Princess Anne Rd. If so, I can get why they may be skeptical.

Mixed income housing would be ideal. Unfortunately, you'd have to appease the NIMBYs who would start screaming about their property values.

 

[vdogg]

https://pilotonline.com/news/government/local/article_40193087-c1b0-5ffe-8b4e-b9eea0e7969a.html

The plan passed. If done right, this will effectively double the size of downtown in a decades time. This opens up so much opportunity for development. An Amazon size campus could go there for example. Hopefully they do a bit more on the office front. Residential is nice but we need more business down there.

[carolinaboy]

1. Is the city going to redevelop this area (since they own the land) or are they going to sell land to private developers to develop or enter into PPP's with developers? My ideal scenario would be to sell tracts to the private sector and let it be developed that way. I think we would get more dense, market-defined, better quality development that way.

2. This is going to take time so let's be patient.

3. The worst thing that can happen is to re-concentrate poverty elsewhere in the city. I hope the city doesn't end up building new public housing elsewhere to placate the current residents.

[vdogg]

Yikes! Some of the comments on the pilot are absolutely disgusting. I knew I shouldn't have looked in that section but I did. The sheer hatred and vitriol displayed towards those less fortunate is something I will never get over about this area. Put the hoods back on folks. The need for change can be acknowledged without descending into that cesspool of prejudice this area knows all too well.

[lammius]

SPQ should have been the site of Norfolk's Amazon HQ2 proposal.  HQ2@SPQ

[vdogg]

1 hour ago, lammius said:

SPQ should have been the site of Norfolk's Amazon HQ2 proposal.  HQ2@SPQ

Wouldn't have been done in time. It will take years before they get approval from the feds to even begin to demolish the the projects in the first place. This is a decade-long process, and I don't think Amazon was willing to wait that long.

[Norva757]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:26 AM, carolinaboy said:

1. Is the city going to redevelop this area (since they own the land) or are they going to sell land to private developers to develop or enter into PPP's with developers? My ideal scenario would be to sell tracts to the private sector and let it be developed that way. I think we would get more dense, market-defined, better quality development that way.

2. This is going to take time so let's be patient.

3. The worst thing that can happen is to re-concentrate poverty elsewhere in the city. I hope the city doesn't end up building new public housing elsewhere to placate the current residents.

They are building more public housing in Grandy Park. There is a good amount being built right now. I'm not sure if there were some  there before and they are replacing the old buildings

[Norva757]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 6:38 PM, vdogg said:

Wouldn't have been done in time. It will take years before they get approval from the feds to even begin to demolish the the projects in the first place. This is a decade-long process, and I don't think Amazon was willing to wait that long.

Amazon wants mass transit and to be in a bigger city. Look at the places they have chosen for the last announcement. This region doesn't have enough cohesion to draw such a big company here. Everyone wants to be the big dog. Virginia Beach wants things like the Amazon HQ but refuse to step up with light rail and other ways to grow.  It just baffles me how Vabeach wants to be urban and suburban at the same time. They should just let Norfolk be the true urban core of this metro. Vabeach was literally created to stop Norfolk from expanding. Changing all those counties to cities was the true death of this region. I believe Norfolk would be a lot bigger than it is if it wasn't for those counties changing into cities

[BFG]

I agree. P.A. and Norfolk Counties should never have become cities. Unfortunately, I don't know if there will ever be a solution, at least not in the next 20 years. 

All Norfolk can do is move forward on its own. This and light rail are good steps. People outside of the region are noticing the city's progress. 

[BFG]

The first apartments are going up pretty quickly! 

[lil-bear]

https://pilotonline.com/news/local/article_a8b6fbd2-38f5-11e8-bd8c-c39054e0dc41.html

This looks promising.

Ben Carson takes a tour in Norfolk and praises Norfolk's St. Paul's Quadrant Plan!