St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[Urbanlooker]

IMO the whole stretch along St Pauls and over to Church St. should be mid to high rise mixed-use with a decent 1 block sized park in it. From Church St. over I'm ok with and I like that they made Church St. the "heart of the community." All aside though I'm happy something is finally coming of the 10+ years of planning this. Then again we've seen a rendering/planning before so we'll see. 

[mistermetaj]

Restoring the grid and building a significant green space is wonderful. I'm content with townhouses, apartments, and offices. My only gripe is the idea of single family homes. Nix that and we have a great redevelopment ok our hands. 

 

[BFG]

I just noticed that Snyder's Lot has a planned development in the rendering. From what I remember, WPA mentioned a mid-rise apartment, but I think that lot needs to be a high rise (30+ stories) to help fill in the skyline. I'd much rather see a Fortune 500 company put a tower there, or see someone take a chance at a luxury apartment building.

[carolinaboy]

9 hours ago, BFG said:

I just noticed that Snyder's Lot has a planned development in the rendering. From what I remember, WPA mentioned a mid-rise apartment, but I think that lot needs to be a high rise (30+ stories) to help fill in the skyline. I'd much rather see a Fortune 500 company put a tower there, or see someone take a chance at a luxury apartment building.

Almost exactly what I noticed and was going to point out. That lot needs to remain vacant (or made into a temporary park) so that if the need arises in the future for a significant high rise (office, hotel, residential or mixed-use), it could go there. Shouldn't just plop anything there to satisfy the impulse to show it on a plan. I'm formerly a Planner and I can tell you it gets like playing SIM City. Nobody can just leave a vacant lot shown as vacant.....there must be something shown on it

[carolinaboy]

What I like:

The linear/contiguous park with water catchment area (pond).

The small cluster of mid-rise and high-rises near MacArthur Mall (that's probably enough).

The "stepping down" of density as you fan away from downtown.

The gridded street pattern.

Fronting Church St with retail/offices below and residential above, in 3 to 5 floor buildings.

The vegetation (not sure if all new or existing)

The proposed mix of dwelling type. It is OK to have single-family in an urban environment, as long as the lots are small and setbacks are minimal. Parking in rear (alley) would be good.

 

What I would change:

The Snyder lot shown with a small building. This lot should be reserved for a high-rise (when the market demands it). It's in downtown proper, along the light-rail line, near the courts and civic buildings, etc.

Overall  this rendering gives me hope. Seems like the city and consultants really have listened and put a lot of thought into this. I don't think they are showing anything out of the realm of probability or possibility. It seems to be a plan that is manageable and likely to happen over time. Sometimes, concept plans are crazy, pie-in-the-sky things that likely won't happen in a community. Then when it doesn't, the community feels cheated or let down, etc. This concept fits well into existing Norfolk and future Norfolk I think. Nothing shown is crazy or unrealistic. The high-rise area is small, which I think is the likely reality of this area. Church St is given some prominence with it being lined with human-scale buildings ( think of a nice stroll down Church St under the trees getting a coffee or a bite to eat).

[carolinaboy]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:00 PM, BFG said:

This is gaining quite the presence. 

I'm digging the look of these buildings. Very modern yet feels like they could have been a refurbished 1910's warehouse. Love the brick. Would love to have seen the building closer to Scope 5 floors and the one further away 3. Black window frames would have been cool too. Overall I really like it.

[skylinefan]

Saint Paul Apartments wraps around St. John's AME Church where my family attended church when I was growing up in Virginia Beach.   It occupies the former location of my late Father's Dental Practice at 555 Fenchurch St.   I'm glad they are adding more housing to the area and many of the units are affordable.    As for the SPQ re-development I like the mix of mid rise and townhouses seems about right for that area.  Taller buildings should be located next to city hall and the jail as well as across St. Paul's at the former Snyder lot. 

[BFG]

https://pilotonline.com/news/government/local/article_bc597e18-8ab1-11e8-af7e-1fb3e6ab4878.html

The official article. 

[Up2313]

On 7/19/2018 at 8:41 AM, carolinaboy said:

I'm digging the look of these buildings. Very modern yet feels like they could have been a refurbished 1910's warehouse. Love the brick. Would love to have seen the building closer to Scope 5 floors and the one further away 3. Black window frames would have been cool too. Overall I really like it.

I agree. When I first saw the framing go up, I was like that is so out of place. But with the brick facade. It surprisingly fits in very well. They did a good job on this one. I do agree though. More height towards St Paul's would have been better. 

Edited July 20, 2018 by Up2313

[carolinaboy]

On ‎7‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 3:00 PM, BFG said:

This is gaining quite the presence. 

11/2017 from Google Earth. What a difference a few months make.

[urbanlife]

For what we have seen with this plan, the fact that it has blocks is a major factor. Combined with the planned park space, this is setting up to be a great urban district for the city. I am not a fan of the low density, it should be mostly mid rise buildings and high rises, but you also don't want to initially plan for that and not have that happen. It is always easier to tear down small buildings for bigger buildings rather than waiting for bigger buildings to come. My guess is this plan will grow more organically once the major factors are in place, such as blocks and parks.

[vdogg]

Honestly, I'd like to see Cordish build their highrise tower on the Snyder lot if the city is still crying about Waterside. The tower should take up a portion of the lot, with some form of the Waterside live concept (think powerplant in Baltimore) taking up the rest. This would extend the vibrancy added by the Waterside district up St. Paul's and provide additional entertainment options that are not necessarily crowded around Granby.

[BFG]

Snyder's Lot being on a light rail line is the primary reason why the city should not consider anything shorter than 20 stories. Honestly, they need to shoot for 30+, with an entertainment plaza, a restaurant and major retail chain on the ground floor, like a 24-hour CVS or a smaller Target. I can't see how Norfolk could lose on building something like that. To me, that would be the game changer the city has been looking for.

[BFG]

Residents learn more about the next step. Looks like the first wave begins next summer. 

https://pilotonline.com/news/government/local/article_8e24ddf4-a630-11e8-b112-a394b6049a5f.html

But...I look at that rendering and I don’t see the tall buildings along St. Paul Blvd. According to the article, they’re going to look more like the condos and apartments on the other side, behind MacArthur. Not pleased.

 

[BFG]

Now that I've had a chance to look it over again, it looks like the part closest to St. Paul will be more mid-rise than anything. It kinda gives me a DC-type vibe, if done right. I'd still like to see height, but this might play out well. I'm still annoyed that there's no (new) tall buildings in this rendering though.

[urbanlife]

Very disappointing looking, but here is hoping that it is at least full of mixed use with plenty of retail throughout so that it creates a neighborhood that is attractive to foot traffic. Though at least along St Paul should be a location for taller buildings rather than 4 story apartment buildings. I am surprised they aren't trying to seek out developers that might be interested in investing in large developments in SPQ.

[baobabs727]

"Levavi told the crowd that construction, which will start at off-site locations such as the lot across from Norfolk’s courthouse complex and the former location of the First Precinct police station on Tidewater Drive, likely won’t start until at least a year and a half from now."

Anybody see what I see here? 

[BFG]

12 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

"Levavi told the crowd that construction, which will start at off-site locations such as the lot across from Norfolk’s courthouse complex and the former location of the First Precinct police station on Tidewater Drive, likely won’t start until at least a year and a half from now."

Anybody see what I see here? 

Looks like that's what the presenter is pointing to in that picture. But it looks like another four-story building. Not counting the Gateway Tower, it's almost like they don't want to add to the skyline.

[baobabs727]

Exactly! And in case we're missing something here, will this property,  once thought to be reserved for a signature skyscraper, serve as a staging area/pre-construction area. For years?  

Edited August 23, 2018 by baobabs727

[vdogg]

Well, lucky for us they don’t ever follow through on anything, so we can probably just throw that rendering on the trash heap. 

[urbanlife]

5 hours ago, vdogg said:

Well, lucky for us they don’t ever follow through on anything, so we can probably just throw that rendering on the trash heap. 

That is a mighty fine big trash heap they have there. 

[Willy18]

What a waste of prime commercial real estate that could almost double the foot print of the CBD. Parking lots surrounded by condos in a DT...brilliant...never would have thought of that. What is this the Fairfax County model we are going after? How about mid/high rises with commercial and residential components combined. Tuck several floors of parking under each and use the space more efficiently. 

[carolinaboy]

15 hours ago, BFG said:

Looks like that's what the presenter is pointing to in that picture. But it looks like another four-story building. Not counting the Gateway Tower, it's almost like they don't want to add to the skyline.

Could be apartments over retail. My theory is, if it is residential over retail, the city can call it TOD, since it's adjacent to the LR line. TOD was promised with LR but little has been delivered. This could be the parcel the city can point to and say, look....TOD, LR is doing what was promised. BTW, I'm not opposed to TOD there, it's better than a surface parking lot.

[brikkman]

41 minutes ago, carolinaboy said:

Could be apartments over retail. My theory is, if it is residential over retail, the city can call it TOD, since it's adjacent to the LR line. TOD was promised with LR but little has been delivered. This could be the parcel the city can point to and say, look....TOD, LR is doing what was promised. BTW, I'm not opposed to TOD there, it's better than a surface parking lot.

That is a significant walk to the nearest LR station to be considered TOD!

[BFG]

I'm hoping Norfolk considers Church Street for the LR expansion, or BRT. You have the transfer station right next door, and should make better use of it if you truly want TOD.