St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[Arctic_Tern]

5 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

The difference between us is that you do not acknowledge the abject failure—on every level—of government-planned low-income housing (more like warehousing) over the past 60+ years.  Both in concept and in actual/practical form. I suspect this is rooted in your genuine belief and faith in our government to find solutions to complex socio-economic, socio-cultural problems...and in your distrust of and disdain for private enterprise, and yes, capitalism.  If only we worked smarter, cared more, spent more public dollars and executed better, then public housing would be a rousing success. Right?  
 

Nah man, the different between us is that one wants a discussion on genuine improvements for folks and the other wants to call people commies for doing the former.

[vdogg]

We appear to be drifting ever so close to the line of personal attack (perhaps we’ve already crossed it?). I am trying to hang back and let the discussion develop, but let’s stay off the personal and concentrate more on the points brought up on both sides of this discussion.

[urbanlife]

On 3/23/2021 at 6:02 AM, vdogg said:

The people complaining must want nothing to change. As stated above, this was not a once vibrant and historically black community. It is and always has been public housing. It’s concentrated poverty, which is the death knell for any neighborhood. The complaint seems to be that not every single resident can come back. I’m sorry, but if you keep the exact same people in the exact same place what have you really accomplished except, perhaps, updating the housing stock? The concentrated poverty is still there, the reasons for that poverty are still there, and jobs will not magically appear for folks who may not have a high school diploma/Ged/vocational degree/etc. I don’t know what the answer to this problem is but I do know that simply giving the area a face lift and doing the exact same thing ain’t it. Mixed income is the way to go. Expungement of criminals records for minor offenses is the way to go. Scholarships to technical and trade schools would provide huge benefits. Provide people with a pathway toward upward mobility. Let’s solve the underlying issues first. 

I think it has more to do with those complaining are those that don't have the trust in the city that the change that they want would be good for the residents. When taking away people's neighborhoods like what happened to build public housing, it's hard to get that trust back when talking about wanting to redevelop their neighborhoods again. 

[vdogg]

3 hours ago, urbanlife said:

I think it has more to do with those complaining are those that don't have the trust in the city that the change that they want would be good for the residents. When taking away people's neighborhoods like what happened to build public housing, it's hard to get that trust back when talking about wanting to redevelop their neighborhoods again. 

I can understand that, however, this plan has been in development for 20 + years. There have been multiple meetings, charrettes, etc., with all involved stakeholders. The city has been both up front and vocal as to their intentions. Many of these meetings were attended by members of this very forum, which is why I find the allusions to and characterizations of some nefarious subterfuge on the part of the city confusing. It’s simply not true. At a certain point, a plan has to make it from paper to reality. They have to pull the trigger and see where things go, perhaps make adjustments along the way. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But doing nothing was not an option.

[urbanlife]

20 hours ago, vdogg said:

I can understand that, however, this plan has been in development for 20 + years. There have been multiple meetings, charrettes, etc., with all involved stakeholders. The city has been both up front and vocal as to their intentions. Many of these meetings were attended by members of this very forum, which is why I find the allusions to and characterizations of some nefarious subterfuge on the part of the city confusing. It’s simply not true. At a certain point, a plan has to make it from paper to reality. They have to pull the trigger and see where things go, perhaps make adjustments along the way. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But doing nothing was not an option.

Oh, I agree because no matter what, there will always be people living in these public housing developments that don't trust the city's actions no matter what is said. At this point, the city needs to just act and prove that those living there won't be shoved aside.

[baobabs727]

On 3/26/2021 at 9:29 PM, Arctic_Tern said:

Nah man, the different between us is that one wants a discussion on genuine improvements for folks and the other wants to call people commies for doing the former.

I never called you any names. The  communism reference was but an analogy to your stated argument, not an allegation that you are an adherent. 

Additionally, even though I think your position is wrong-headed, I said that you had a “GENUINE belief and faith in our government to find solutions to complex socio-economic...issues...”, the housing of low income, urban-dwelling citizens being one of them. Key word was “genuine.” We can disagree on the subject matter and still both genuinely care about improving things for “folks.” Correct?  I ask because this is at least the second time that you’ve insinuated or just plain stated that I don’t care, don’t operate in “good faith”...and of course, naturally, we are to infer that you care more (than do I).

Bottom line:  This is happening.  And nobody’s going to be rebuilding any public housing projects here. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by baobabs727

[EJ_LEWIS]

On 3/27/2021 at 5:51 AM, vdogg said:

I can understand that, however, this plan has been in development for 20 + years. There have been multiple meetings, charrettes, etc., with all involved stakeholders. The city has been both up front and vocal as to their intentions. Many of these meetings were attended by members of this very forum, which is why I find the allusions to and characterizations of some nefarious subterfuge on the part of the city confusing. It’s simply not true. At a certain point, a plan has to make it from paper to reality. They have to pull the trigger and see where things go, perhaps make adjustments along the way. Is it perfect? Absolutely not. But doing nothing was not an option.

Yes I applaud Norfolk for holding the multiple meetings and charrettes early on, but it seems that the city has taken the project underground and is no longer communicating with the residents or the citizens.  The city simply cannot ignore the inquiries from the citizens or the press.  It kind of makes it looks like they are hiding something.  The city must do better or they will not allay the fears of the residents that SPQ is nothing but East Ghent all over again. 

[virginia pe]

Dr. Chip Filer,  the Norfolk City Manager, and Ronald Jackson, the Executive Director of the Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing Authority, addressed the inquiries and the BET program in Sunday's Virginia Pilot.  You can disagree with what they are saying, but I don't think you can claim they are ignoring the residents or hiding from them.

http://digitaledition.pilotonline.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=45f8a1a6-f763-4166-93ab-643331ddc764 

[EJ_LEWIS]

1 hour ago, virginia pe said:

Dr. Chip Filer,  the Norfolk City Manager, and Ronald Jackson, the Executive Director of the Norfolk Redevelopment and Housing Authority, addressed the inquiries and the BET program in Sunday's Virginia Pilot.  You can disagree with what they are saying, but I don't think you can claim they are ignoring the residents or hiding from them.

http://digitaledition.pilotonline.com/infinity/article_share.aspx?guid=45f8a1a6-f763-4166-93ab-643331ddc764 

This is a good move by the city.  

[BFG]

2 minutes ago, EJ_LEWIS said:

This is a good move by the city.  

Agreed. Good damage control and more transparency at a critical moment. They don't need any more delays or controversy, esp. since Covid put this off long enough.

[brikkman]

Very good discussion.

I agree with it all oddly.

 

[BFG]

The problem that I'm starting to have is, when the city tries to be transparent, the Pilot continues to remind us of Norfolk's history with East Ghent. The editorial below is the latest.

I'm all about holding people accountable, but continuing to throw dirt is not productive either, esp. when the city is already playing damage control after being called out nationally twice. First by Bloomberg (which ended up being blown out of proportion) then BET.

https://www.pilotonline.com/opinion/columns/vp-ed-column-finn-0411-20210410-sv7szlhikjhzvfgm3nadty743u-story.html

[EJ_LEWIS]

18 hours ago, BFG said:

The problem that I'm starting to have is, when the city tries to be transparent, the Pilot continues to remind us of Norfolk's history with East Ghent. The editorial below is the latest.

I'm all about holding people accountable, but continuing to throw dirt is not productive either, esp. when the city is already playing damage control after being called out nationally twice. First by Bloomberg (which ended up being blown out of proportion) then BET.

https://www.pilotonline.com/opinion/columns/vp-ed-column-finn-0411-20210410-sv7szlhikjhzvfgm3nadty743u-story.html

I think throwing dirt could be construed as digging up dirt that the city has tried hard to cover up.   The Ghost of East Ghent is there and I think it is very reasonable for residents of Tidewater Park to be wary of this latest "redevelopment".   The city has to be ready to respond to the media throwing dirt.  They should never institute a media blackout again about a billion dollar redevelopment which is the largest in city history.  

[brikkman]

I couldn't read the article (subscription restrictions), but from what i've been told, East Ghent was the slums when that was demolished. This is in many ways is a false comparison if that was true. My dad and uncle did a short stint out there before they moved  to Va.beach then back to norfolk.

Edited April 12, 2021 by brikkman

[BFG]

I say East Ghent because in the 70s, the city promised to offer housing to the outgoing residents, only to build the overpriced townhouses along Princess Anne Rd. I think Tidewater Gardens residents see a repeat of that happening, although I haven’t seen any indication that the city would do so. 

[VBIllini13]

23 hours ago, BFG said:

I say East Ghent because in the 70s, the city promised to offer housing to the outgoing residents, only to build the overpriced townhouses along Princess Anne Rd. I think Tidewater Gardens residents see a repeat of that happening, although I haven’t seen any indication that the city would do so. 

First time posting here in a few years, but I had to get in on the good discussion!

I would counter this argument in that in the 70s, the City was not under federal obligations they currently are under the Uniform Relocation Act, since this is a federally funded redevelopment of housing that currently received federal operating and capital subsidies. I can appreciate and understand the concerns of Tidewater Gardens residents, and I really get why they are skeptical of the City/NR&HA keeping their promises. I guess I am just a bit more hopeful (maybe naively so) that since the URA has such strict requirements on relocation and displacement, that these residents will either certainly be guaranteed housing (whether with a project-based or housing choice voucher) in the redeveloped community, or will be given a large sum equivalent to 42 or 60 months of replacement housing payments. I know that the money is no replacement for the community itself, but it's not insignificant either.

I have spent the last few years working in a community development department that receives federal housing funds, so I have had to learn pretty quickly what temporary and permanent displacement entails!

[vdogg]

On 4/12/2021 at 9:38 AM, EJ_LEWIS said:

I think throwing dirt could be construed as digging up dirt that the city has tried hard to cover up.   The Ghost of East Ghent is there and I think it is very reasonable for residents of Tidewater Park to be wary of this latest "redevelopment".   The city has to be ready to respond to the media throwing dirt.  They should never institute a media blackout again about a billion dollar redevelopment which is the largest in city history.  

Where does it end though? It is correct that Norfolk doesn't have the best history in this area. It is also correct that the residents have a right to be concerned about this, though I think the statements of the city not reaching out have been overblown, because they have. I also think that the media has a right to bring these issues up. The thing that concerns me however, is that the discussion is only centering around what has happened and what is bad rather than what should happen. Okay, so we've been at this for 20 or so years and we are finally executing a plan, and now people think that that plan is not as good as it should be. Fine, then provide a solution. That is not what is occurring here, they're simply saying stop the process altogether this is not fair. They need to offer an alternative to what's occurring, because simply keeping things as they are is not a valid option.

[BFG]

I think people also forget the city did the same thing 15 years ago with Broad Creek. One of my closest friends grew up in Bowling Park, and his family received a voucher. I don't recall what the other options were, but I'd like to think SPQ will be closer to Broad Creek in the 2000s than East Ghent in the mid-70s.

I could be wrong but from what I've seen, the mixed-use housing in that area has been a success, esp. with the new Bowling Elementary/Broad Creek Library and the Kroc Center.

[baobabs727]

It may very well be that not every single person who expresses a desire to return will be able to return.

Frankly, I think SOME of this outcry is just noise:  Nonsense prevailing in a fact-free zone.  We’re living in troubled times, where b*tching, kvetching, whining and being outraged is almost de rigueur. In the end, I think the City will perform better than expected, and the vast majority of these concerns will be addressed in a positive manner. I hope I’m right. 

Edited April 14, 2021 by baobabs727

[BFG]

I'm in DC. One of my favorite cities. As I've said several times, I wish I could bottle up the energy and culture here, bring it back home and pour it into the Elizabeth River or the streets downtown.

But more importantly, I'm looking at the architecture and street layout, and this is what SPQ needs to be. Most buildings are 8-12 stories, but it's busy and bustling. There are restaurants and retail in every block, on the ground floor. People walking around. Hopefully the community here is replicated back in Norfolk, even if it's only 4-8 stories. That would still create a nice presence from 264.

Below is a screenshot from a video I shot earlier.

[757Duke]

12 hours ago, BFG said:

I'm in DC. One of my favorite cities. As I've said several times, I wish I could bottle up the energy and culture here, bring it back home and pour it into the Elizabeth River or the streets downtown.

But more importantly, I'm looking at the architecture and street layout, and this is what SPQ needs to be. Most buildings are 8-12 stories, but it's busy and bustling. There are restaurants and retail in every block, on the ground floor. People walking around. Hopefully the community here is replicated back in Norfolk, even if it's only 4-8 stories. That would still create a nice presence from 264.

Below is a screenshot from a video I shot earlier.

Having lived in Chicago for the past 5 years, I share a similar sentiment in terms of how you can have an active community with a well planned street grid without the height in place. While in Lakeview, there were active retail streets with residential above paired with side streets of residential, and I feel like that could thrive in SPQ.

[EJ_LEWIS]

I live in DC and my biggest complaint about the modern buildings here is they are all glorified boxes.  Not much architecture over the last 60 years has been imaginative or interesting.   I hope SPQ uses bold architecture and color to enliven the community.  

[urbanlife]

On 5/26/2021 at 8:02 AM, 757Duke said:

Having lived in Chicago for the past 5 years, I share a similar sentiment in terms of how you can have an active community with a well planned street grid without the height in place. While in Lakeview, there were active retail streets with residential above paired with side streets of residential, and I feel like that could thrive in SPQ.

Chicago is the perfect big urban city for me, I love having the urban commercial corridors with the tree lined residential streets coming off of them with the courtyard apartment buildings and greystone buildings lining those streets. Then throw in a mix of residential towers along major corridors and the El, and its a big city that is big enough without being too big.

[757pilot]

Not the best picture but caught the demolition of the McDonald’s on St Paul’s Blvd this morning. It looks like they are already half way done tearing it down. 

[EJ_LEWIS]

19 hours ago, 757pilot said:

Not the best picture but caught the demolition of the McDonald’s on St Paul’s Blvd this morning. It looks like they are already half way done tearing it down. 

Wow an end to era.  My father's dental practice was in the 555 Fenchurch St. Building (torn down in 2003), and he use to send me over to this McDonald's to fetch lunch when I worked in his practice in 1980.   Downtown Plaza was a bustling shopping center back then.  I am looking forward to when SPQ is complete at this location.