St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[Virginia City]

6 hours ago, urbanlife said:

This is what makes the most sense, the number of low income housing units isn't the issue, the amount of wasted space on only low income housing is. Obviously it is hard to say what should happen in SPQ, I personally would love to see it become an extension of downtown and be turned into some sort of grid and sold off for development with the mindset that it must follow urban guidelines. It would be amazing for you guys to see the Norfolk skyline full of cranes as it doubles in size. Though I will always be skeptical of that ever happening unfortunately.

The Pearl District in Portland, Oregon is a great example of what can be done when a city and the people of the city push for a true redevelopment of a district that basically doubles the size of downtown. When the redevelopment started, the Pearl was considered to be a neighborhood north of downtown. Today, you can't tell the difference between downtown and the Pearl because it is merely an urban extension of downtown. At the time when it was the River District, it was a seedy area that was home to old rail buildings, empty lots, and flop houses, it was considered to be a dangerous part of town. Today, it is the most expensive area code in the state, yet it also has a large number of low income housing units in the district. To add to this, while the planning to make this happened took a decade to start, it only took 15 years for almost the entire area to be built up with only a small portion left to go. Luckily the Post Office building will be coming down and freeing up a huge chunk of land in the Pearl which will be more than likely turned into a key urban focal point in the district.

While I get that there are differences between the two cities, it isn't far fetched for Norfolk to see the same kind of redevelopment happen, but it requires the right people to be pushing for this kind of vision. The people that are elected into office need to have this kind of vision, the city leaders need this vision, and the people of Norfolk need this vision. Obviously it is a very hard cocktail to make, but when it happens, great things come from it.

A fun fact, the Pearl District in Portland and the SPQ in Norfolk when you include all three housing projects to VB Blvd, they are both roughly the same size. That puts it into perspective of what is actually possible in SPQ.

http://www.oregonlive.com/history/2015/02/throwback_thursday_portlands_p.html

You are not far off with the comparisons to Portland. At the time they started to redevelop the Pearl district Portland only had 100k more then Norfolk does now, which in the grand scheme of thing isn't a whole lot. Now it is 3x the population and the redevelopment of the Pearl District is a big part of the population growth.

Additionally, we aren't that far back from them in terms of metro area 3.1m to 1.8m, but the difference is square miles that they draw that population from. We have 1.8m in 526 sq/mi while Portland's is 3.1m in 6,684 sq/mi! That is unreal, even if you add the Greater Richmond area to ours it equals about 650 total. Add their population and the HR/RVA metro area would be 3m and 19th largest CSA right behind Portland's 18th ranking.

[HRVA]

[Helium3]

Man, I really wish the project were more urban. The parking lots and bland design are bad enough, but I thought the apartments would at least be more flush to the street than that. Hopefully the rest of the quadrant will be built like an actual extension of downtown.

[BFG]

I don't hate it, but I don't love it, either. It looks like a homeless shelter or retirement home. That said, I'm glad the first stage of SPQ is finally getting under way.

[Up2313]

Apparently construction has begun according to this article. Anything going on down there?  

http://www.virginiabusiness.com/news/article/construction-begins-on-20-million-apartment-project-in-norfolk

[BFG]

I think the groundbreaking was scheduled for sometime this month or next. Last time I was over there, it didn't look like anything had begun.

[Norf Native]

When I passed by there last week, it looked like construction had already begun. 

[BFG]

Yep. The site is now fenced off. Looks like the SPQ is officially getting started...

[Norfolk757Kid]

5 acres of land? 126 seems like a small number of apartments for 5 acres of land

[baobabs727]

Serious question. Would somebody here please point me in the direction of the master plan for SPQ over the next ...say 20, 30, 50 years? And why is it that so many people seem to be under the impression that it's going to be full of skyscrapers? I mean, I'd seriously like to get to the bottom of that misnomer. I'm thoroughly confused.  Thanks.

Edited September 20, 2017 by baobabs727

[vdogg]

51 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

Serious question. Would somebody here please point me in the direction of the master plan for SPQ over the next ...say 20, 30, 50 years? And why is it that so many people seem to be under the impression that it's going to be full of skyscrapers? I mean, I'd seriously like to get to the bottom of that misnomer. I'm thoroughly confused.  Thanks.

The Norfolk 2020 and 2030 plan designated a portion of that area for highrise development, complete with rudimentary renderings and style books. It's on the norfolk.gov site. I'd have to search for it last I remember if you type "master plan" in the search box on their website several of their documents pop up.

[ntheo]

46 minutes ago, baobabs727 said:

Serious question. Would somebody here please point me in the direction of the master plan for SPQ over the next ...say 20, 30, 50 years? And why is it that so many people seem to be under the impression that it's going to be full of skyscrapers? I mean, I'd seriously like to get to the bottom of that misnomer. I'm thoroughly confused.  Thanks.

Over the years I never recalled any plan that included skyscrapers. In fact, in the mid-1990's they were talking about big box stores along St. Pauls.

This is what was proposed about 10-12 years ago: http://www.goodyclancy.com/projects/st-pauls-quadrant-area-plan/

A couple of years ago I was at some meeting in downtown and the consultants at the time stressed that SPQ should be mixed-income, mixed-use. 

[ntheo]

6 minutes ago, vdogg said:

The Norfolk 2020 and 2030 plan designated a portion of that area for highrise development, complete with rudimentary renderings and style books. It's on the norfolk.gov site. I'd have to search for it last I remember if you type "master plan" in the search box on their website several of their documents pop up.

St. Paul’s Area Plan (2012): https://www.norfolk.gov/documentcenter/view/1687

Downtown Pattern Book (2009): https://www.norfolk.gov/documentcenter/view/1634

[baobabs727]

Thanks, guys. I'm going to take a look at it tonight and tomorrow.

Correct. My recollection was the triangle was to be big box stackables with parking garage.  And then *potentially* re-development on Waterside at St. Paul's in the form of a signature office tower. That's the only tower I remember for SPQ....

[vdogg]

21 minutes ago, ntheo said:

St. Paul’s Area Plan (2012): https://www.norfolk.gov/documentcenter/view/1687

Downtown Pattern Book (2009): https://www.norfolk.gov/documentcenter/view/1634

It was similar to your first link except the green crescent area marked " open space" was purple and marked "high rise residential". I think your link is a later version of the original plan. I may actually have the original on my computer somewhere, I think I downloaded it. I'll have to look.

[vdogg]

On 12/2/2006 at 12:27 PM, br0guy said:

The comprehensive plan for the St. Pauls Quadrant is online. Nothing cemented... just ideas being thrown around (pdf file).

 

http://www.norfolk.gov/Planning/PDFFiles/S..._community2.pdf

I think it was this one (from all the way back in 2006!). Unfortunately, the link leads nowhere now. There have been several St. Paul's plans, and in the original highrise development was specifically mentioned for the section I noted. I'd search for more links, but don't feel like wading through 20 pages of posts. 

[BFG]

30 minutes ago, ntheo said:

St. Paul’s Area Plan (2012): https://www.norfolk.gov/documentcenter/view/1687

Downtown Pattern Book (2009): https://www.norfolk.gov/documentcenter/view/1634

According to this, there's supposed to be towers at City Hall, the Granby Tower site, the empty MacArthur lot and at City Hall Ave and Monticello. Would love to see this happen in the next 5 years!

[baobabs727]

St. Paul's Apartments update:

https://pilotonline.com/inside-business/news/economic-development/construction-under-way-in-norfolk-for--building-apartment-complex/article_5643f972-e51a-53e9-9b46-652eb77d3368.html

[Up2313]

Here is the site plan from TS3 Architects website. There are more images there. http://ts3architects.com/

To me this looks better and not as suburban as once thought. It will have a descent street presence towards St Pauls.  I think eventually surface parking could be replaced with buildings along the street torwards the Northeast. 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Up2313

[BFG]

I drove past the site today. They've cleared out the actual land, so I'm sure they'll start digging in the ground soon. 

[skylinefan]

Looks like this new development will encircle the church I grew up in and will build on top of the empty parcel on Fenchurch St. where my late Father's dental practice use to be.

[vdogg]

https://pilotonline.com/news/government/local/norfolk-wants-to-buy-a-huge-chunk-of-land-near/article_97773984-57a9-5c4a-8aaf-74e18ad10564.html

Some very troublesome statements in this article, not the least of which is Kenny talking about getting a plan together when we've been working on a plan for the last 20 years. People just don't know what we had with Fraim, but they are about to learn...

[vdogg]

I cannot believe that they are actually talking about renovating the existing buildings. Tear them down! Somebody is going to have to bite this bullet here, somebody is going to have to get some intestinal fortitude and just do it. That does not mean throw people out on the street, find housing for them but tear these buildings down. They are holding Norfolk back.

"Before anyone is relocated, before anything is torn down, let’s stand up some services,” the mayor said.

The public housing communities cover about 99 acres, or half of the proposed redevelopment area. Some of the rest is occupied by schools, churches or private homes.

The council will have more discussions on how to develop a specific plan for the area. But the mayor said all council members agree “something has to be done.”

  Really? I thought we agreed that something had to be done decades ago.

[BFG]

I'm convinced this is never going to get off the ground. These issues were discussed 5 years ago, and residents said the same thing then. I'm not saying kick them out, but how many times are we going to have this discussion?

[urbanlife]

8 hours ago, BFG said:

I'm convinced this is never going to get off the ground. These issues were discussed 5 years ago, and residents said the same thing then. I'm not saying kick them out, but how many times are we going to have this discussion?

Sadly, I think you might be right. The pace this has gone, it seems like no one wants to actually make any bold moves, which is a real shame and a lost opportunity for the city.