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St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)


Aughie

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Me either but if the more detailed renderings have a few VB style McMansions in there (to borrow a term from Tel) then I am totally against it. I wouldn't mind a dense urban development of townhomes but thats it. This is not a suburban area, it is the downtown of a major city and they should design accordingly.

But this neighborhood in particular is not downtown, it is an inner neighborhood. With that said, the Pearl district here in Portland is an inner neighborhood, so I am not saying it cant be dense, just saying it has to be looked at differently than your inner core downtown.

Actually the true keys to development for that area area going to be the parks and the church by the interstate. It would be nice to see them hold some international design competitions for the parks and key buildings, like community center, school, and what not. I really think this is going to a major change for the city, some of you guys are just expecting way too much. I think in the end you will all be surprised how much actually happens.

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But this neighborhood in particular is not downtown, it is an inner neighborhood. With that said, the Pearl district here in Portland is an inner neighborhood, so I am not saying it cant be dense, just saying it has to be looked at differently than your inner core downtown.

But it is downtown in the sense that Norfolk officials have stated publicly that they wish to extend the boundaries of downtown all the way to Tidewater. In the words of one official "I've always thought we were selling ourselves short on downtown" (forget which article thats from). In this sense, St. Pauls Quadrant is not only part of downtown, it will be the center of it. I just fear that by allowing suburban style densities in an obviously urban district we are boxing ourselves in by taking valuable and sparse land off the table.

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But it is downtown in the sense that Norfolk officials have stated publicly that they wish to extend the boundaries of downtown all the way to Tidewater. In the words of one official "I've always thought we were selling ourselves short on downtown" (forget which article thats from). In this sense, St. Pauls Quadrant is not only part of downtown, it will be the center of it. I just fear that by allowing suburban style densities in an obviously urban district we are boxing ourselves in by taking valuable and sparse land off the table.

I totally agree. This needs to have at least 20 story buildings through there. We don't need another Ghent neighborhood at that particular location. I don't mind residental mixed in there but this will be part of DT. If they want to make another Ghent it should be on the other side of Brambleton from St. Paul's quadrant.

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Something that somewhat ticks me off is that in the ST Pauls Quadrant they are talking about oportunities of those who are already in the projects. I would love to live downtown, but I make too much to live on the east side and not enough on the west side. Where is a happy medium?

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Something that somewhat ticks me off is that in the ST Pauls Quadrant they are talking about oportunities of those who are already in the projects. I would love to live downtown, but I make too much to live on the east side and not enough on the west side. Where is a happy medium?

They need to make affordable housing anyways for public servants. There needs to be some urban working family neighborhoods.

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But it is downtown in the sense that Norfolk officials have stated publicly that they wish to extend the boundaries of downtown all the way to Tidewater. In the words of one official "I've always thought we were selling ourselves short on downtown" (forget which article thats from). In this sense, St. Pauls Quadrant is not only part of downtown, it will be the center of it. I just fear that by allowing suburban style densities in an obviously urban district we are boxing ourselves in by taking valuable and sparse land off the table.

Yea what he said.............

I read that as well vdogg, but I'm not sure he was an official, I believe he was a developer (I believe his last name was Riddick). But I totally agree. This would box us in.

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Plans such as these are usually middle of the road, resident friendly, human scale, politically neutral, politically correct, pretty, defanged, colorful, trite reductions of what consultants believe everyone will accept. I appreciate the need for them but I also hate them. They can lack foresight, vision and imagination. A real plan offers some strategic alternatives. This one neglects the need for expansion of the central business district, which has been essentially locked out of vertical growth because of the mall, the Scope cultural center, the psuedo historic enclave adjacent to the mall, and the water. If this plan were to be officially adopted in some form, Granby street would probably have to be redeveloped vertically (more Trader type structures) and the area north of Brambleton would see more activity. These aren't necessarily bad things, but they sure wouldn't be my first option.

The low-density development around MacArthur Mall seems in part to be the outgrowth of differing philosophies over how the 17 acres would be developed. Some City officials favored holding out for a major development (such as the mall or the Tivoli Gardens project), while others wanted to break things up into smaller developments. Of course, the Myers house and the Baptist church suggested building at a modest scale as well.

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Yea what he said.............

I read that as well vdogg, but I'm not sure he was an official, I believe he was a developer (I believe his last name was Riddick). But I totally agree. This would box us in.

Riddick is the vice mayor so he counts as an official, i'm not sure if he's the one who said it or not though.

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But if you take the area between the Scope and MacArthur and plan on it being the highest density downtown, a quarter mile area can have a huge impact on a city. That area needs to be more dense to complete the downtown's urban core.

Plus combine this with the downtown plaza and that is a huge amount of area for the city. St Paul Quadrant should act the same as West Freemason. If Norfolk should go more urban, it should spread north, not east. This neighborhood needs to think first and foremost how to make life for the people who live there and the new people who will live there better. Plus if you look at this, this is actually a really big plan that they are starting with. Once developers start getting interested and more money gets involved, it is only going to get bigger.

I agree with the Scope and MacArthur portion of your statement, they do need to develop that area to complete the core (with out a doubt); I

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I've used this example before. But I really think St Pauls quadrant could utilize something similar to the design shown here in the link below. If you click through some of the pics, you'll see a mixed-use development with business (janus capital headquarters), hotels (jw marriot), restaurants, shops (crate and barrel), and residential. And this section is only four blocks of a much larger master plan in Cherry Creek Denver. Its essentially a much better version of TC in Va Beach. Much more original and urban. TC in Va Beach is nothing but a copy cat of similar developments all over the country like Tysons Corner. But St Pauls quadrant needs to be similiar in being able to attract business and big box retailer names and restaurants. If we had a development like this, we could then bring in a mix of local restaurants and chain restaurants, big name retailers, etc. This is what Norfolk is missing. Who ever heard of a city without the likes of Cheesecake Factory, Maggiano's Little Italy, Morton's Steak House, Barnes and Noble, Crate and Barrel, etc. I'm just throwing out names but you get my point. There's a certain level of amenities and dining/shopping options that Norfolk desperately needs.

http://www.claytonlane.com/gallery.html

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Looking on Google Earth I have found a scenario I would like to propose. The St. Paul Quadrant stays on this course that has been proposed, but takes into consideration of raising the number of low income housing, and affordable housing, as well as first time buyer condos and high end condos. Making it dense for the most part, but not towering buildings.

The downtown plaza is designed for high density and worked back into the grid of the city to connect the neighborhood and downtown more fluidly.

As development begins and more interest is taken. The city begins to tear down the low income housing to the north of the downtown plaza across Brambleton. Because of the increase in St Paul, they absorb the loss of housing. Thus dense development would move north and connect to the old urban grid of Granby north of Brambleton.

This would easily give the city room to develop for like the next 100 years, so I wouldn't worry too much about this project if they plan it right. Besides anything the city can do to fix the mistakes of how they dealt with their low income housing, an that would be a good thing.

I've used this example before. But I really think St Pauls quadrant could utilize something similar to the design shown here in the link below. If you click through some of the pics, you'll see a mixed-use development with business (janus capital headquarters), hotels (jw marriot), restaurants, shops (crate and barrel), and residential. And this section is only four blocks of a much larger master plan in Cherry Creek Denver. Its essentially a much better version of TC in Va Beach. Much more original and urban. TC in Va Beach is nothing but a copy cat of similar developments all over the country like Tysons Corner. But St Pauls quadrant needs to be similiar in being able to attract business and big box retailer names and restaurants. If we had a development like this, we could then bring in a mix of local restaurants and chain restaurants, big name retailers, etc. This is what Norfolk is missing. Who ever heard of a city without the likes of Cheesecake Factory, Maggiano's Little Italy, Morton's Steak House, Barnes and Noble, Crate and Barrel, etc. I'm just throwing out names but you get my point. There's a certain level of amenities and dining/shopping options that Norfolk desperately needs.

http://www.claytonlane.com/gallery.html

That is basically what I am expecting to happen to the area. Or something like that with a combination of the Pearl here in Portland.

http://www.explorethepearl.com/

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I've used this example before. But I really think St Pauls quadrant could utilize something similar to the design shown here in the link below. If you click through some of the pics, you'll see a mixed-use development with business (janus capital headquarters), hotels (jw marriot), restaurants, shops (crate and barrel), and residential. And this section is only four blocks of a much larger master plan in Cherry Creek Denver. Its essentially a much better version of TC in Va Beach. Much more original and urban. TC in Va Beach is nothing but a copy cat of similar developments all over the country like Tysons Corner. But St Pauls quadrant needs to be similiar in being able to attract business and big box retailer names and restaurants. If we had a development like this, we could then bring in a mix of local restaurants and chain restaurants, big name retailers, etc. This is what Norfolk is missing. Who ever heard of a city without the likes of Cheesecake Factory, Maggiano's Little Italy, Morton's Steak House, Barnes and Noble, Crate and Barrel, etc. I'm just throwing out names but you get my point. There's a certain level of amenities and dining/shopping options that Norfolk desperately needs.

http://www.claytonlane.com/gallery.html

I like it, I do not believe that area is equal in size to this quadrant, so of course something like this would have to be done on a bigger scale or in conjunction with something else. Overall, I could live with that idea + something else.

Edited by brikkman
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I like it, I do not believe that area is equal in size to this quadrant, so of course something like this would have to be done on a bigger scale or in conjunction with something else. Overall, I could live with that idea + something else.

The Clyton Lane project was the first phase of a much bigger master plan. I agree, St Pauls quadrant is large and will entail more development but I really feel that the heart of the quadrant should be mixed use and compliment downtown. Provide a shopping, eating, dining destination other than the mall. Here's a description of Clayton Lane. I think that some of the higher end retail and hotel establishments would have to be adjusted along with providing reasonably priced housing.

A 700,000 square-foot, $160+ million "true" mixed-use development in the heart of the Cherry Creek North commercial district.

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Because it's awesome.

Pretty much yea. For example, everybody has always been super-critical of the city of Detroit, but their collection of art deco architecture has always endeared the city to me :) I'd love to see a tower like that in Norfolk. Maybe they could glam-up the Hoffler Tower proposal to something like that? :D

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The new Atlanta building is reminiscent of Rockerfeller Center. I like it. However, I've never been bowled over by Atlanta's skyline. It looks very scattered. Charlotte has a nice clumb of buildings forming its skyline which I find very exciting.

And you're right. PeninsulaKiddo. Detroit has always had an exciting skyline. It used to be a very exciting city up until the late 1950's. Sadly, it's been reduced practically to a wasteland at ground level, though revival efforts are underway.

Edited by burt
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