St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[Dulcinea]

I have now taken the first step in becoming involved in the planning process after having spoken with an Information Management Supervisor at City Hall today. Am now on the email contact list, hopefully, so I'll be alerted to future meetings that are open to the public. I also learned that the temporary replacement site of the main library will probably be in the Union Mission storage building on St. Paul's Blvd, between E Bute St and Wood St, and across from the new-ish fire station.

PS - Thank you for the encouragement.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Dulcinea

[rusthebuss]

I have now taken the first step in becoming involved in the planning process after having spoken with an Information Management Supervisor at City Hall today. Am now on the email contact list, hopefully, so I'll be alerted to future meetings that are open to the public. I also learned that the temporary replacement site of the main library will probably be in the Union Mission storage building on St. Paul's Blvd, between E Bute St and Wood St, and across from the new-ish fire station.

PS - Thank you for the encouragement.

could you im me the process to get on the email list?

[Dulcinea]

Russ - the forum won't allow me to send an IM. . .maybe I don't have enough posts? Not sure. If you message me first, it may allow me to send a reply.

EDIT: Nevermind. I'll send it.

Edited May 17, 2007 by Dulcinea

[urbanvb]

I think it's 10 postings so you are almost there.

[Dulcinea]

Ah...that's better. Thanks, urbanvb!

[brikkman]

Don't know if you can find this in documentation anywhere, but my wife works with a resident of the St. Paul's Quadrant and she told her that their last month to occupy their residency is this coming Dec.....

[vdogg]

Don't know if you can find this in documentation anywhere, but my wife works with a resident of the St. Paul's Quadrant and she told her that their last month to occupy their residency is this coming Dec.....

Due to demolition? Does this friend live in Tidewater Gardens? I can't imagine this not getting mention by now.

[brikkman]

Due to demolition? Does this friend live in Tidewater Gardens? I can't imagine this not getting mention by now.

Not for demo, but for them to vacate.

Yes, she stayed in Tidewater Gardens, but she had moved just a few days prior because of the notice.......Well that is what she told my wife..........She told her that they all received notices...

No telling when demo will start, but could happen shortly after dec.

She is/was a Tidewater Gardens resident..

[vdogg]

Does anyone have an updated timeframe for when this study will actually be finished?

[rusthebuss]

Does anyone have an updated timeframe for when this study will actually be finished?

I think this will be another 2010 plan. It will be a while before we see any big projects occur. It will be around the next big boom.

I personally would rather them take the time and do it right than settle for something to fill the gap.

Edited June 2, 2007 by rusthebuss

[Dulcinea]

UPDATE: St. Paul's Quadrant workshop to be held!

• When: Friday October 5, from 6-8:30pm and Saturday October 6, from 9:30am-3pm.
  
• Where: Ruffner Academy Cafeteria; 610 May St.
  
• Also: Lunch will be provided on Saturday.
  

Here are the details that I received in an emailed PDF...can't figure out how to set up a workable link (thanks anyway, Vdogg), but here is the content from the PDF. No cool charts or renderings to be missed, as there were none. I hope to help contribute to the future of Norfolk by going to this, or at least learn as much as I can from those I will meet at the event. I am going to be there for at least the Saturday session; maybe Friday as well, if I can swing it with my job.

On October 5 and 6, a two-part, hands-on workshop will provide an opportunity for the community to learn about the basic planning issues affecting St. Paul

[urbanlife]

the smartest thing they can do is turn that area into a grid and work it into the downtown street network so that it isn't an isolated community and is an extension of downtown, but still holds its own characteristics.

[Dulcinea]

the smartest thing they can do is turn that area into a grid and work it into the downtown street network so that it isn't an isolated community and is an extension of downtown, but still holds its own characteristics.

Agreed. Though I do appreciate what has been done with Broad Creek and around Attucks Theater, I don't want to see something like that duplicated

in St. Paul's. It needs to have a dense, urban feel on a pedestrian scale, and the land cannot be wasted here, as it will need to serve the expansion of downtown for decades to come. Hoping for 3-4 story adjacent brick buildings up against a wide sidewalk dotted with large trees (someday), with retail on the first floor, apartments above, & parking in the back and on-street. Occassional office or hotel tower, and parking ramp. And of course a park or two.

...oh, and mebbe a library.

[Sky06]

Agreed. Though I do appreciate what has been done with Broad Creek and around Attucks Theater, I don't want to see something like that duplicated

in St. Paul's. It needs to have a dense, urban feel on a pedestrian scale, and the land cannot be wasted here, as it will need to serve the expansion of downtown for decades to come. Hoping for 3-4 story adjacent brick buildings up against a wide sidewalk dotted with large trees (someday), with retail on the first floor, apartments above, & parking in the back and on-street. Occassional office or hotel tower, and parking ramp. And of course a park or two.

...oh, and mebbe a library.

I agree with many of your thoughts. But Norfolk needs to be bold here. A cosmetic change is not the answer. Less dense housing and more dense commercial. Parks are fine. I truly believe the future of downtown relies heavily on this. This needs to be prosperous, fairly affluent, and a place where all of us feel comfortable in visiting. Tough but well-thought-out decisions are needed. Trying to please everyone will only lead to disaster, I'm afraid.

Edited September 22, 2007 by Sky06

[urbanlife]

I agree with many of your thoughts. But Norfolk needs to be bold here. A cosmetic change is not the answer. Less dense housing and more dense commercial. Parks are fine. I truly believe the future of downtown relies heavily on this. This needs to be prosperous, fairly affluent, and a place where all of us feel comfortable in visiting. Tough but well-thought-out decisions are needed. Trying to please everyone will only lead to disaster, I'm afraid.

I have to disagree with this, less dense housing and more dense commercial is no different than downtown. This area is not downtown, it is an extension of it. This area should be planned to be much more dense, maybe even more dense than downtown...which is sadly still not as dense as it use to be, but getting better. Housing is a key factor to this, as well as a grocery store in the heart of it. The neighborhood would need a defined commercial area, either a street or two or a cluster of blocks. Housing has to be mixed throughout and has to cater to all incomes, not just the more preferred wealthier types. You cannot look past the people who live there now because they still need a home and displacing them without finding a true solution is a huge problem that shouldnt happen.

Another key factor is its connectivity to the city and downtown, it is an extension and should act like such. I dont mean just streets connecting, but transit as well. This would be a great opportunity for the city to build a local streetcar line in the city as well, making it easier for the elderly and commuters in general that wish to do business downtown and in inner neighborhoods to commute.

The reason for a balance between dense housing and commercial is important is because if either is too heavy it begins to weigh on social problems such as crime. It is a known fact that most inner neighborhoods in this country have a problem with crime, as with many downtowns (granted with the recent growth of housing in downtowns, this is beginning to change.) If there is a balance between the two, it keeps a neighborhood active almost all hours of the day and makes it harder for crime to happen. (it is the whole eyes on the streets theory).

(well crap, I just deleted a bunch of stuff I typed...well off to paraphrasing, stupid mouse pad)

basically it was an argument that if this is done right, you would see a shift in downtown for the city from its current core to where the plaza is now. Which would make St Paul Ave the core street for the city and thus making Norfolk much more the core downtown for the region.

[levarforever]

Agreed. Though I do appreciate what has been done with Broad Creek and around Attucks Theater, I don't want to see something like that duplicated

in St. Paul's. It needs to have a dense, urban feel on a pedestrian scale, and the land cannot be wasted here, as it will need to serve the expansion of downtown for decades to come. Hoping for 3-4 story adjacent brick buildings up against a wide sidewalk dotted with large trees (someday), with retail on the first floor, apartments above, & parking in the back and on-street. Occassional office or hotel tower, and parking ramp. And of course a park or two.

...oh, and mebbe a library.

Not to get off the subject too much, but I posted this link to a rezoning ordinance from the city of Norfolk concerning land to be developed with townhouses in the vicinity of Washington Avenue, Church and Lexington Street. In fact, there are some new townhouses about a couple of blocks from the Attucks Theater if I'm not mistaken. I think they add to the kind of density you are talking about.

Eventhough this area is somewhat outside of St. Paul's Quandrant, this action by the city council might be an indication that they are thinking high-density outside of downtown. It may be wishful thinking on my part, but you can read the ordinance for yourself.

http://www.norfolk.gov/council_members/CouncilAgenda/ph3.pdf

[levarforever]

Oh I take that back...part of the city's action reads...

[rusthebuss]

They would be complete fools not to make this high density. I can't believe they are talking about putting suburban crap there. We need to get these idiots out of council and get real CITY reps in there

[urbanlife]

yeah, that would be a huge mistake for the city and the region for them to go for low density in that area. Basically if they go low density, you might as well consider VB's downtown to be the core of the region because this area of land is the only way for Norfolk to go beyond being a small city in a big metro because that is all it is right now.

[vdogg]

Just to clarify, I think that levars post is only referring to an area outside the quadrant, not the quadrant itself. We still have no idea what is actually planned inside the quadrant.

[vdogg]

That said, I don't see why they're making church street low density. They're really boxing downtown in.

[Sky06]

I guess I didn't clarify regarding my thoughts. I agree that this needs to include dense development. And as for residential vs. commercial, I really don't care. My point is that this needs to be something that will help make the rest of downtown prosperous in the long run. I.e., it can't be cosmetic changes. I really believe Norfolk needs to relook at this area from a whole new perspective and determine what's best for the overall health of the city. What will make the CBD posper?

Edited September 24, 2007 by Sky06

[urbanlife]

I guess I didn't clarify regarding my thoughts. I agree that this needs to include dense development. And as for residential vs. commercial, I really don't care. My point is that this needs to be something that will help make the rest of downtown prosperous in the long run. I.e., it can't be cosmetic changes. I really believe Norfolk needs to relook at this area from a whole new perspective and determine what's best for the overall health of the city. What will make the CBD posper?

yeah totally agree with that. This is a chance for Norfolk to change the outlook of the city forever. This chunk of land is roughly the same size as downtown. Heck the triangle of land (st paul, church, and brambleton) is roughly the same size as where most of the towers in Norfolk are along main and plume. Personally I have always wanted Norfolk to be the center of the metro, not just geographically, but in the terms of importance. There is no doubt that the area needs several downtowns, just in shear size alone, that needs to happen. But Norfolk should be the driving force for the metro and should have the largest downtown of the metro.

VB will surpass Norfolk in downtown size (granted it will be a bit of a bland downtown, but that is besides the point) if Norfolk doesn't treat this area right. It is a chance for the city to double its size of downtown and create a strong residential core downtown that offers housing to a variety of incomes and family sizes.

It is time for Norfolk to look beyond what it has known to be a downtown and take on a new identity...granted, funny I should say that because that is what Norfolk did when it decided to destroy almost all of its past to take on a new identity of a modern city.

[vdogg]

Something just occurred to me. Why are we still scheduling and holding workshops? Wasn't this plan supposed to be complete a long time ago? I think they need to speed up the process a tad. Nothing wrong with taking time to get it right, but with all of these highly paid consultants you would think they could've come up with a solution by now.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

I don't recall any statements that the St. Paul's Quadrant plan was supposed to be completed a "long time ago". I went to one of the workshops and had a chance to participate and add ideas several months ago. We were specifically told to standby for further work by the consultants to absorb all of the public input and have then come up with some early ideas, but that nothing would proceed with further public involvment. Sounds like it is time for further public involvment and to see what the consultants have come up with. Unfortunately, I have an out of town trip that weekend so I hope everyone here who is interested and able will attend October 5-6 sessions.

No one will be able to say they didn't have a meaningful chance to offer their opinions on what should be done with this area of downtown Norfolk.