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St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)


Aughie

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Care to elaborate on that one? Usually it is just the lower class that gets upset because they are the ones being displaced in the process.

Yeah, it is just renderings, but the plus side of it is that they are some good forward thinking renderings. Plus the most important image is the new grid that would be implicated. So regardless of how this all plays out, the reestablishing of the grid will be key.

Because they will feel like they gave them a free ride. They work so hard to be taxed and taxed some more only to give people new homes in prime locations for nothing. It is different if it was transistional, but we know that's not the care.

It is plenty of people who want to live closer to or in downtown that can't afford it, and why should anyone be allowed anything free with a shakey work record, etc.... I have issues with the fundamentals of how we give money. I am not the type to say they do not need it or we should not provide it, I have issues with how we provide it.

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a nice little bump for this topic. This was made last month, should give you guys a timeline of sorts as well as some ideas of what to look forward to.

What I found interesting was this line:

Market support for additional housing on Post Office & School sites up to 600 units

So, the long range plan is to take out the post office and the school? Not that I am against either of those two things.

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What I found interesting was this line:

So, the long range plan is to take out the post office and the school? Not that I am against either of those two things.

Well I have been in that school about 9 years ago and it needed to be torn down and a new one built at least 15 years ago....I am amazed it is still there. Plus post offices dont need warehouses near downtowns anymore. We are in the process of moving ours here in Portland and it will one day give us something like 9 new blocks, which we will be able to extend our park blocks even further north.

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Well I have been in that school about 9 years ago and it needed to be torn down and a new one built at least 15 years ago....I am amazed it is still there. Plus post offices dont need warehouses near downtowns anymore. We are in the process of moving ours here in Portland and it will one day give us something like 9 new blocks, which we will be able to extend our park blocks even further north.

They could easily move that to Norfolk industrial park.

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Because they will feel like they gave them a free ride. They work so hard to be taxed and taxed some more only to give people new homes in prime locations for nothing. It is different if it was transistional, but we know that's not the care.

It is plenty of people who want to live closer to or in downtown that can't afford it, and why should anyone be allowed anything free with a shakey work record, etc.... I have issues with the fundamentals of how we give money. I am not the type to say they do not need it or we should not provide it, I have issues with how we provide it.

just wanted to point out that this comment is a generalization and from what I can tell means that white middle class doesnt want to live near black lower class. Which I am not saying anything against you in that comment, I am personally well aware of that racial issue growing up there, and yes it is still an issue.

But keep in mind, the people that flock to a development like this are not going to be the white middle class from VB or Chesapeake. It is going to be young couples that can afford to buy or rent a nice place and wish to do it in the context of an urban up and coming neighborhood. The very wealthy will not be buying into this area till later when it is built out more because if you can afford West Freemason, then why move to this end of downtown? Also, the military is going to play a huge part in this because you have people from all over the US that didnt grow up with that stereotype image and would have no problems renting in an area like this once this plan goes into effect. Then on top of that, a good number of the lower incomes are going to be retirees and they are not known for their gangbanging regardless of skin color. Much of the lower class that will end up living in this neighborhood are going to be those who desire neighborhood that isnt like a ghetto so that they can raise their children in, sure they probably wont ever get out of low income status, but they would be able to give their kids a better childhood and that alone might allow their kids to strive for something better. So there is alot of positive things that could come from this if it is done right.

Yeah, the need to move the Post Office to the industrial park and they need to rebuild a new elementary school that works with the new street grid and neighborhood layout.

Oh and they really should of turned Broad Creek into a land bank area (granted, that wasnt a big thing when Broad Creek was being built) because that would of been a great area to help improve the quality of life for limited income families.

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just wanted to point out that this comment is a generalization and from what I can tell means that white middle class doesnt want to live near black lower class. Which I am not saying anything against you in that comment, I am personally well aware of that racial issue growing up there, and yes it is still an issue.

But keep in mind, the people that flock to a development like this are not going to be the white middle class from VB or Chesapeake. It is going to be young couples that can afford to buy or rent a nice place and wish to do it in the context of an urban up and coming neighborhood. The very wealthy will not be buying into this area till later when it is built out more because if you can afford West Freemason, then why move to this end of downtown? Also, the military is going to play a huge part in this because you have people from all over the US that didnt grow up with that stereotype image and would have no problems renting in an area like this once this plan goes into effect. Then on top of that, a good number of the lower incomes are going to be retirees and they are not known for their gangbanging regardless of skin color. Much of the lower class that will end up living in this neighborhood are going to be those who desire neighborhood that isnt like a ghetto so that they can raise their children in, sure they probably wont ever get out of low income status, but they would be able to give their kids a better childhood and that alone might allow their kids to strive for something better. So there is alot of positive things that could come from this if it is done right.

Yeah, the need to move the Post Office to the industrial park and they need to rebuild a new elementary school that works with the new street grid and neighborhood layout.

Oh and they really should of turned Broad Creek into a land bank area (granted, that wasnt a big thing when Broad Creek was being built) because that would of been a great area to help improve the quality of life for limited income families.

I think that some of the lower income units will be built into this project, but it will not in anyway replace tidewater gardens. They simply cannot afford to put that many lower income on one site. Then you're not even decentralizing as much as trying to keep them in the same area, and hope that the more fortunate choose to move in with them under the umbrella of a new development.

I think maybe 20% of the residents of Tidewater Gardens will have the chance to move there, and the rest will be relocated. I know that is an obscure number, but that's what I've seen from developments in NYC, and for Norfolk to replace every house of low income would be pointless. They would have no selling point for people wanting to more there.

Does anyone know about the population of Tidewater Gardens or at least the number of units they have?

Also, Urbanlife, what do you think about a land bank in Ocean View. Especially for lower income, I coudl see that being considered ideal since it is by the water.

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Care to elaborate on that one? Usually it is just the lower class that gets upset because they are the ones being displaced in the process.

Yeah, it is just renderings, but the plus side of it is that they are some good forward thinking renderings. Plus the most important image is the new grid that would be implicated. So regardless of how this all plays out, the reestablishing of the grid will be key.

I'm not really sure why the city hasn't already reestablished the street grid, and I'm really unsure why they haven't already added the lights and cross walks. That is a safety issue they should have already addressed

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just wanted to point out that this comment is a generalization and from what I can tell means that white middle class doesnt want to live near black lower class. Which I am not saying anything against you in that comment, I am personally well aware of that racial issue growing up there, and yes it is still an issue.

Oh my comment had nothing to do with race at all, this includes blacks, whites, and other. I was referring to working individuals vs no working individuals. I consider myself middle class (lower middle, but according to the stats, I'm middle middle for this area) and I personally would take issue with a situation like this. I have learned so much in the last two years regarding home ownership and how people operate, it makes me sick to think about it. I am a home owner, and granted a new house, investment for my family, but at the same time, its not in a nice neighborhood (granted, my neighbhorhood isn't bad, its the adjacent) but when I brought my home two years ago when I was 27, I felt like I could not afford to LIVE in southside 757. Then, I found a home, new, small as hell, expensive as hell only to find out that homes were inflated beyond belief. In this economic down turn, people manage to rise above it all, in these cases, people who do not derserve it. I would give up my life to move my family to an area like that, but in order to do it, I must not work. Remember, in the middle of this, there are some things you must discern. We speak about these things as it relates to the "better of the worst". We talk about programs for people, work programs for people......we are not arguing about those people because those are the ones we inspire to change. We are talking about the individuals who give a certain group of people bad names, or a bad stigma. Unfortunate, we must all treat them the same to reach the same goal. Sure up government funds, making sure people are not using the system. In some cases, its virtually rape of the government system, yet we have people complain about LRT.

Its easy to through just enough money at a problem to hope that it works itself out. Like I said in my previous post, could be by design...........but I believe more money (funny right) with respect to control is the fix...

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I think that some of the lower income units will be built into this project, but it will not in anyway replace tidewater gardens. They simply cannot afford to put that many lower income on one site. Then you're not even decentralizing as much as trying to keep them in the same area, and hope that the more fortunate choose to move in with them under the umbrella of a new development.

I think maybe 20% of the residents of Tidewater Gardens will have the chance to move there, and the rest will be relocated. I know that is an obscure number, but that's what I've seen from developments in NYC, and for Norfolk to replace every house of low income would be pointless. They would have no selling point for people wanting to more there.

Does anyone know about the population of Tidewater Gardens or at least the number of units they have?

Also, Urbanlife, what do you think about a land bank in Ocean View. Especially for lower income, I coudl see that being considered ideal since it is by the water.

I think it was 1500 units. So I would say at a minimum, multiple that by 3, at a minimum.

And I think you are right about the residents coming back, I can't see letting them all back. I think the main idea with this development is to lure more business into the city. Cut the tax rate, incorporate price ceilings, they may not need to finance so many projects. Public housing wouldn't be so bad if it was temporary like its intent. It should be more kid focused if you ask me.

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I'm not really sure why the city hasn't already reestablished the street grid, and I'm really unsure why they haven't already added the lights and cross walks. That is a safety issue they should have already addressed

I am a little lost, fixing the street grid in that are will faciliate what?

I am not understanding that concept with that particular chunk of land, can someone educate me?

restructing the street grid in that area will do noting but make it more open to more bottle necks and undesireable T stops Remeber, to the north, brambleton, to the south water and interstate, and to the east, st.pauls ave. I think restructing the street grid as it relates to carey and youngs park would work. Maybe you meant with regards to the master plan of those parks............

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I think it was 1500 units. So I would say at a minimum, multiple that by 3, at a minimum.

And I think you are right about the residents coming back, I can't see letting them all back. I think the main idea with this development is to lure more business into the city. Cut the tax rate, incorporate price ceilings, they may not need to finance so many projects. Public housing wouldn't be so bad if it was temporary like its intent. It should be more kid focused if you ask me.

I agree, public housing has spiraled way out of control (as has welfare...another conversation I guess). They were meant to be temporary projects for lower middle class who couldn't quite afford to live in the city yet. Now it has become a permanent residence for a lot of people. I rememeber somewhere on this board there was an article about a woman complaining about the redevelopment since she had been living there for 65 years now. GIVE ME A BREAK!

If they are not paying or it, then they should have absolutely NO control over the situation.

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I am a little lost, fixing the street grid in that are will faciliate what?

I am not understanding that concept with that particular chunk of land, can someone educate me?

restructing the street grid in that area will do noting but make it more open to more bottle necks and undesireable T stops Remeber, to the north, brambleton, to the south water and interstate, and to the east, st.pauls ave. I think restructing the street grid as it relates to carey and youngs park would work. Maybe you meant with regards to the master plan of those parks............

I meant more in regards to the master plan, and it is something the city can do now than wait for the full implementation of the plan to take affect. Just a nice infrastructure project to get things going.

As for the bottle necks and T stops, they are going to happen anyway with this project one way or another, so why delay the inevitable?

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I meant more in regards to the master plan, and it is something the city can do now than wait for the full implementation of the plan to take affect. Just a nice infrastructure project to get things going.

As for the bottle necks and T stops, they are going to happen anyway with this project one way or another, so why delay the inevitable?

Ok, I was just trying to get an idea to why they would do that. You usually create a street for some type of use or throughput. Without shops, business or something, there would have been no need. But I get it now, do it now for later...Not sure how they would do that without knocking some units down, but its way more smarter people out there than me.

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I agree, public housing has spiraled way out of control (as has welfare...another conversation I guess). They were meant to be temporary projects for lower middle class who couldn't quite afford to live in the city yet. Now it has become a permanent residence for a lot of people. I rememeber somewhere on this board there was an article about a woman complaining about the redevelopment since she had been living there for 65 years now. GIVE ME A BREAK!

If they are not paying or it, then they should have absolutely NO control over the situation.

Well I dont fault the 65 yr old...I am guessing she is black, and I have studied the history of that has happened to them in the past 65 years, so it doesnt surprise me she is a lifer. Now the issue would be why would someone wish to stay in this kind of housing? Simple, how can it be just temporary if there is little to no way of moving out of it. What is the cost of housing, owning and renting? What is the cost of living in that area? What is the pay scale like for people? Often times, this is all they can afford because of low paying jobs and lack of education that is available.

When someone lives their whole life in a place like this, the idea is to ask why? not how could they? With rising cost of living and the not rising enough pay scales, the middle class is just a step above this....hell if I still lived in HR, my cost of living, I would be struggling to survive and stay out of housing like this. One shouldnt be angry for another for being poor, one should be angry to the wealthy for not doing enough to help their fellow man in their own region.

As for land banks in Oceanview, I think that would be a great idea. Hell, the city desperately needs a masterplan for Oceanview. I could never understand why a city would want their ocean property (bay property technically) to go to waste like that. I have heard stories from back in the 60s and 70s on how great that area use to be.

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Well I dont fault the 65 yr old...I am guessing she is black, and I have studied the history of that has happened to them in the past 65 years, so it doesnt surprise me she is a lifer. Now the issue would be why would someone wish to stay in this kind of housing? Simple, how can it be just temporary if there is little to no way of moving out of it. What is the cost of housing, owning and renting? What is the cost of living in that area? What is the pay scale like for people? Often times, this is all they can afford because of low paying jobs and lack of education that is available.

When someone lives their whole life in a place like this, the idea is to ask why? not how could they? With rising cost of living and the not rising enough pay scales, the middle class is just a step above this....hell if I still lived in HR, my cost of living, I would be struggling to survive and stay out of housing like this. One shouldnt be angry for another for being poor, one should be angry to the wealthy for not doing enough to help their fellow man in their own region.

Now we are thinking and it is what I have been saying all along. Urbanlife, you hit that part of the puzzle right on the head. WHY...And I totally agree with you, those cost associated with living are just "plain ole" expensive. I mean, everyone can not be an office manager, a doctor, a scientist, an architect. Some has to clean the building, do fast food, and run errands. When I first started working at the company I am at now, this 60 year old lady told me..... "everyone job is important, do not forget that...some one has to clean the stalls, your trash, and vacuum your floor" and you know what, that stuck with me because that is very important to understand. Teachers are a good example of this paradigm: Needed, but doesn't pay all that great.

All in all, this is why I made my statement in previous post about needing more money to control the money. The idea in general is to make these individuals better in the long run, not support their ill efforts and tuck them in the back corners of the city. I also stated in my previous post that we need to lower taxes and implement price ceilings on cost of living...

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actually that is one of the reasons that would make land banks so important for that city. Because if the 65yr old woman said she has lived in a land bank house that she owns and takes care of most of her life, the feeling towards her would be much different.

The thing I like about land banks is that they provide housing to own for people who could probably never afford to buy. They have to meet the limited income requirements as well as have a fairly clean record...they dont sell to known criminals, there are other programs for that, such as halfway housing...though I dont like that term. Plus once people then own their home, it is theirs till they one day wish to sell it for a nicer home. That is about the only real way a system for low incomes can work. Which any of those massive vacant land areas in Norfolk and Portsmouth would be perfect for this.

Oh and watch it about an architect, they tend to get screwed out of making alot of money, though often times they do alright...it is definitely not a profession to get rich off of haha. I like informing people of that one, they all think I am going to be a rich architect someday and I always like to point out that if I get rich, it wont be because of architecture.

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actually that is one of the reasons that would make land banks so important for that city. Because if the 65yr old woman said she has lived in a land bank house that she owns and takes care of most of her life, the feeling towards her would be much different.

The thing I like about land banks is that they provide housing to own for people who could probably never afford to buy. They have to meet the limited income requirements as well as have a fairly clean record...they dont sell to known criminals, there are other programs for that, such as halfway housing...though I dont like that term. Plus once people then own their home, it is theirs till they one day wish to sell it for a nicer home. That is about the only real way a system for low incomes can work. Which any of those massive vacant land areas in Norfolk and Portsmouth would be perfect for this.

Oh and watch it about an architect, they tend to get screwed out of making alot of money, though often times they do alright...it is definitely not a profession to get rich off of haha. I like informing people of that one, they all think I am going to be a rich architect someday and I always like to point out that if I get rich, it wont be because of architecture.

Tell that to Jean Nouvell, Santiago Calatrava, Robert AM Stern, David Childs, Gene Kaufman, Frank Gehry, Costas Kondylis.

If you're the best at what you do, then you'll become very rich. Architecture happens to be more difficult than others because there are TONS of architects everywhere, but if you're good enough, or build a good enough reputation, then you can be swimming in money.

Honestly, reputation is a lot more important it turns out, just look at some of the projects Gene Kaufman has produced. I bet urbanlife will get a kick out of some of the garbage Kaufman draws up and he is doing very well...kind of sad actually, alright now i'm just ranting.

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Tell that to Jean Nouvell, Santiago Calatrava, Robert AM Stern, David Childs, Gene Kaufman, Frank Gehry, Costas Kondylis.

If you're the best at what you do, then you'll become very rich. Architecture happens to be more difficult than others because there are TONS of architects everywhere, but if you're good enough, or build a good enough reputation, then you can be swimming in money.

Honestly, reputation is a lot more important it turns out, just look at some of the projects Gene Kaufman has produced. I bet urbanlife will get a kick out of some of the garbage Kaufman draws up and he is doing very well...kind of sad actually, alright now i'm just ranting.

haha, there is a difference between architect and starchitect. Those rare handful that get rich from what they do in architecture is often because they found something that sells rather than being well designed. Not saying that any of them are not good designers, just there are many amazing architects out there that I have huge respect for that also are rolling in the cash. I will do okay in my life, but I dont forsee myself being a household name in architecture....I personally wish to keep my ego in check.

Oh and if I get rich, it would probably be because of developing because that is where the big money usually is. Of course, so is the bigger risks, which comes with the territory.

Besides, you make a great point, there are so many non rich architects out there that are much better than these people, I would rather be ranked among that crowd...but seriously, one of my favorite firms is a firm in Vancouver that focuses much of their attention to the working classes and low income people, I would take much more pride in my work doing things like that.

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haha, there is a difference between architect and starchitect. Those rare handful that get rich from what they do in architecture is often because they found something that sells rather than being well designed. Not saying that any of them are not good designers, just there are many amazing architects out there that I have huge respect for that also are rolling in the cash. I will do okay in my life, but I dont forsee myself being a household name in architecture....I personally wish to keep my ego in check.

Oh and if I get rich, it would probably be because of developing because that is where the big money usually is. Of course, so is the bigger risks, which comes with the territory.

Besides, you make a great point, there are so many non rich architects out there that are much better than these people, I would rather be ranked among that crowd...but seriously, one of my favorite firms is a firm in Vancouver that focuses much of their attention to the working classes and low income people, I would take much more pride in my work doing things like that.

Architects like Gene Kaufman are the reason why I LOVE that Norfolk has a design booklet for the type of architecture it wants in certain areas. I mean, if people want to see how lousy and I mean LOUSY architecture can systematically ruin a city, look at the Gene Kaufman and his former under study Peter Poon's website and see the horrors the are wreaking on NYC.

They make CMSS look like Calatrava.

I usually get somewhat excited because when Norfolk puts out renderings, it is usually similar to what the final design will be since the design booklet provides a nice guidline for that. It is why I have so much hope for St. Paul's Quadrant right now because those rendering make me VERY hopeful.

As for being a developer, I have dreams of that as well, except its the old you need to have money to make money deal. And, I can't imagine banks taking big risks for many many years to come now..

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Architects like Gene Kaufman are the reason why I LOVE that Norfolk has a design booklet for the type of architecture it wants in certain areas. I mean, if people want to see how lousy and I mean LOUSY architecture can systematically ruin a city, look at the Gene Kaufman and his former under study Peter Poon's website and see the horrors the are wreaking on NYC.

They make CMSS look like Calatrava.

I have to say, that made me laugh, it always amazes me when a crappy architect gets celebrated and keeps getting work.

I usually get somewhat excited because when Norfolk puts out renderings, it is usually similar to what the final design will be since the design booklet provides a nice guidline for that. It is why I have so much hope for St. Paul's Quadrant right now because those rendering make me VERY hopeful.

You know, I am on the fence about the guidelines, I am fine with the idea of proportions being used, but when it says that it has to have explicit looks to resemble historical architecture, then I have some issues with that because I am a strong believer in present architecture should represent what is going on in the present rather than be apart of the past....though, my other thought on that is that it makes sense for some place like Norfolk due to the age of the city where there should be more attention paid to that age. As for St Paul, I think the area should be open to new architecture, but I would rather see it take the safe route and do something that looks like a nod to the past than to really screw up the area....so I can see both sides of the issue on this one and there is no easy answer for me.

As for being a developer, I have dreams of that as well, except its the old you need to have money to make money deal. And, I can't imagine banks taking big risks for many many years to come now..

The object is to start out small and simple. We have a large number of small time developer/architects here and often times it starts from taking a small piece of land and building a few town houses on. Make three units, by the time the second one sells, then your budget should be in the black. (though with current market being the exception to that, thus not a good time) This is also a great way for small architecture firms to flex their design muscles alittle bit, plus the great thing with that is that when you start having enough of these small architects and small developers doing projects like these throughout the city, it not only begins to help out struggling neighborhoods but it also leads to bigger developers and architects to start wishing to do the same because then it is proven to work. (it is where we are here in Portland, which will be exciting these next ten years to see the direction architecture will take because of all of the work small developers have done here.)

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I have to say, that made me laugh, it always amazes me when a crappy architect gets celebrated and keeps getting work.

You know, I am on the fence about the guidelines, I am fine with the idea of proportions being used, but when it says that it has to have explicit looks to resemble historical architecture, then I have some issues with that because I am a strong believer in present architecture should represent what is going on in the present rather than be apart of the past....though, my other thought on that is that it makes sense for some place like Norfolk due to the age of the city where there should be more attention paid to that age. As for St Paul, I think the area should be open to new architecture, but I would rather see it take the safe route and do something that looks like a nod to the past than to really screw up the area....so I can see both sides of the issue on this one and there is no easy answer for me.

The object is to start out small and simple. We have a large number of small time developer/architects here and often times it starts from taking a small piece of land and building a few town houses on. Make three units, by the time the second one sells, then your budget should be in the black. (though with current market being the exception to that, thus not a good time) This is also a great way for small architecture firms to flex their design muscles alittle bit, plus the great thing with that is that when you start having enough of these small architects and small developers doing projects like these throughout the city, it not only begins to help out struggling neighborhoods but it also leads to bigger developers and architects to start wishing to do the same because then it is proven to work. (it is where we are here in Portland, which will be exciting these next ten years to see the direction architecture will take because of all of the work small developers have done here.)

I would stay that had norfolk not obliterated its historic architecture, I would be more inclined to accept a more modern look in the newly developing areas. However, after urban renewal struck the city and essentially wiped it out, sans Granby st. I would like Norfolk to try to reclaim some of its architectural history.

On a side note, I am a much bigger fan of beaux art, greek and gothic revival, than I will ever be of international design and modernism. Architects like Robert AM Stern are the closest to what I think this generations archictecture should be...post modern with classical detailing. If Norfolk had more of those I would be very happy with it.

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I would stay that had norfolk not obliterated its historic architecture, I would be more inclined to accept a more modern look in the newly developing areas. However, after urban renewal struck the city and essentially wiped it out, sans Granby st. I would like Norfolk to try to reclaim some of its architectural history.

On a side note, I am a much bigger fan of beaux art, greek and gothic revival, than I will ever be of international design and modernism. Architects like Robert AM Stern are the closest to what I think this generations archictecture should be...post modern with classical detailing. If Norfolk had more of those I would be very happy with it.

I can agree with that, Norfolk did lose alot for the modern movement. But I will explain a bit more why I am on the fence because of the next movement in architecture that is coming. By the time this project gets going the country will be fully in its environmental movement where buildings will have to meet LEED standards and would be nice to see St Paul celebrate this new movement for the city by creating a sustainable neighborhood in the city....though doesnt mean that it has to look super modern or anything, but requires a different way of thinking to make it work.

But again, I strongly agree with you that Norfolk has lost so much of its original city.

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