St. Paul's Quadrant (Phase 2-Under Construction)

[PeninsulaKiddo]

The new Atlanta building is reminiscent of Rockerfeller Center. I like it. However, I've never been bowled over by Atlanta's skyline. It looks very scattered. Charlotte has a nice clumb of buildings forming its skyline which I find very exciting.

And you're right. PeninsulaKiddo. Detroit has always had an exciting skyline. It used to be a very exciting city up until the late 1950's. Sadly, it's been reduced practically to a wasteland at ground level, though revival efforts are underway.

I hope one day the city gets restored to former glory; the architecture, scale, and history of the city seems to be going to waste, unfortunately It pains me to see the shape of some of Detroit's older, amazing buildings.

[urbanlife]

The new Atlanta building is reminiscent of Rockerfeller Center. I like it. However, I've never been bowled over by Atlanta's skyline. It looks very scattered. Charlotte has a nice clumb of buildings forming its skyline which I find very exciting.

And you're right. PeninsulaKiddo. Detroit has always had an exciting skyline. It used to be a very exciting city up until the late 1950's. Sadly, it's been reduced practically to a wasteland at ground level, though revival efforts are underway.

Detroit needs to start taking examples from what Pittsburgh is doing, might help turn that city around a bit.

but back on topic. I figure this neighborhood will turn into that "just outside of downtown" urban neighborhood that just about every city and their mom is building these days.....not saying there is anything wrong with Norfolk leaping onto that same band wagon, just wish they would pick up the pace cause the horses aren't slowing down for the city.

[lil-bear]

Speaking of the historical churches in this area, there shouldn't be a problem with new modern structures next to them. One example is the John Hancock Building in Boston, it has an old church right in front of it!

Historical areas are good, but let's not make another one up like the flats next to MacArthur Center!

[urbanlife]

Speaking of the historical churches in this area, there shouldn't be a problem with new modern structures next to them. One example is the John Hancock Building in Boston, it has an old church right in front of it!

Historical areas are good, but let's not make another one up like the flats next to MacArthur Center!

Yeah those buildings kind of bother me when I see them in Google Earth, looks king of out of place and a waste of land, but at lease it was some new development over there.

[spiker3]

Feeling alot of animosity towards the St Pauls place project, i feel kinda obligated to defend it. Keeping in mind that one, this was the first major project to be completed in downtown residential wise in the last couple of years, and triggered the start of many other projects, including the Rotunda. Additionally, the area is the Moses Myers house from the 1700s and the street dates back centuries. While it might not be the most popular development, i think they captured a old outside new inside feel to the area. I love driving down Freemason St because for those two blocks, it feels very antiquated, cozy. I dont know if it's the streetlights, landscaping or buildings, but that row of colonial condos fits, to me.

I'm curious at the time table for the St Pauls Quandrant though. A 10 year plan? 50 year? Someone brought up a good point, where are the brand name, major retailers and restaurants in Norfolk, anywhere? Shula's i would consider borderline, and MacArthur has some exclusive retailers, but where's everything else? I think bringing in some retail in this quandrant would be beneficial, but after the city subsidized MacArthur Cente,r i dont know how thrilled they'd be at the idea of direct competition. And as behind the curve as Norfolk has been for decades now, how realistic is it wish for 30-50 story office and residential buildings? I know they're supposedly pushing for out of the box for the Synder lot, but that seems for like the exception to the rule than anything else.

One thing i would like to see included with this or in addition to this is expansion of downtown North as well. Brambleton has been the border for downtown forever now, and with this plan even more so. The public housing north of Brambleton will have to dealt with for the St Paul plan to go through anyways. how many of you would be comfortable spending 500K on a condo with public housing 50 feet across the street? Downtown needs to push to 21st St along Monticello, and back further to at least Onley instead of Brambleton now. Right almost to the borders of Ghent. Because if you compare Norfolk to any other city, you guys are talking about Atlanta and Denver, our downtown is miniscule in comparison. We're limited not only by geography but also by planning, and in addition to expanding east, we need to start the planning for expanding north also.

[brikkman]

I can't speak for everyone, but I place more emphasis on expansion eastward than northward because of the continuous land it provides. Expanding north would be trickier than most assume; this is due to the

Edited December 11, 2006 by brikkman

[vaguynny]

If you look at other cities such as Baltimore, Washington and New York you see that some of the trendiest neighborhoods have public housing closer than 50ft away from them. The Village, Capital Hill, Camden Yards etc area all has low income areas very close. I was told by a police officer that most of the crime that takes place in public housing is caused by the people who do not live in the public housing but by

[vdogg]

Is this isn the St. Pauls Quadrant?

15. NORFOLK REDEVELOPMENT AND HOUSING AUTHORITY, for the following applications:

Amendment to the Zoning Ordinance of the City of Norfolk , 1992, to create the Church Street Townhouse Overlay District (CSTOD).

Apply the Church Street Townhouse Overlay District (CSTOD) to property located on the northeast corner of Goff Street and Church Street . The site fronts 137 feet, more or less, along the northern line of Goff Street , 290 feet, more or less, along the eastern line of Church Street .

The above was from the Dec 21 planning docket. On the Dec 11th Design review docket there is this tidbit, probably related to the above.

d. 1300 Block of Church, Townhouses at East Church; new construction *

[Seven Cities]

Is this isn the St. Pauls Quadrant?

No, this is a few blocks north of the Quadrant. Goff Street is one block from the intersection of Church and Princess Anne.

[rusthebuss]

That is by the Attucks Theater.

[urbanlife]

That is by the Attucks Theater.

So I take it that area is finally getting some new attention? Always likes some of the historical architecture over there, but felt the area was being treated like crap.

I shouldn't be too hard on the development north of MacArthur seeing as I haven't really seen it in person and I haven't really seen any good shots of it that really showcase how good the development is.

I really think you guys are thinking way too big. Norfolk will always have a rising competition in the region. VB's town center will eventually out grow Norfolk's downtown. It is just a reality of it. Then there is the fact that the area is , what, 7 cities. If it were one city with towns supporting it, it would be a different situation. With that said, density is the key , not height. 30-50 story towers mean nothing except a nice skyline. If the city turned this into a dense neighborhood of townhouses and 5-10 story apartment and loft buildings. With the taller buildings along 264 and St Paul Blvd, then the city would be onto something. Combine this with Fort Norfolk, the area between Brambleton and the grave yard, and spreading east to Attucks and NSU, then the city would be onto something.

If they begin to blur the lines of downtown and its neighborhoods, then that is the key to a bigger downtown. I dare someone to come to Portland and try to give me an exact idea of where downtown is. Really this city is a collection of districts that link together an operate almost perfectly. Norfolk really has a chance to be a combination of Portland and Boston. I wouldn't knock the city for seeming to be planning too small for your liking, from what I can see so far, it looks quite grant......unless the lower density turns into single family cookie cutter homes, then I might have to change this post.

[spiker3]

urban, i agree with you, it would be the good idea if they pull it off, and im not knocking norfolk for what they're tryin to do, i'd just like see the scope increased or at least starting to be talked about, it is night and day different between the north and south of brambleton until you get towards the hague. i applaud the desire and foresight in having a comprehensive plan with their goals, i'd just like some talk towards the north of downtown as well, blurring the lines, like you said...

and i'll try to take some pictures of St Pauls Place sometime this week

[New England Transplant]

Urbanlife, why are you so sure that VB town center will outgrow downtown norfolk? I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.

[rusthebuss]

Urbanlife, why are you so sure that VB town center will outgrow downtown norfolk? I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.

Cause he is from Vabeach

[okinawatyphoon]

Urbanlife, why are you so sure that VB town center will outgrow downtown norfolk? I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.

I don't understand it either. Norfolk is on the water (cruise ships, natural beauty, boating), has actual history in it's downtown, has (soon to be pro hopefully) sports, as well as many more skyscrapers and many more in the works. I don't see Town Center outgrowing Norfolk anytime soon.

[Padman]

It may be true that there has been more growth in general in the suburbs of American cities than in the core, central cities, but this has not been the case with respect to any individual, suburban nodal centers. It's been more of an aggregate kind of suburban development. Virginia Beach's TC is functionally a lot like Tyson's Corner in DC, Walnut Creek in the SF/Oakland area or maybe Irvine (et al) near LA. The only real differences are of timing and of architectural style. We are a second tier metro area, so some developmental trends tend to take of a few years after they do in the first tier cities. I doubt that TC will ever exceed downtown Norfolk in size. The centroid of economic activity in South Hampton Roads seems to be slowly moving to the west, to Chesapeake, Suffolk and Isle of Wight. Some of us thought that westward expansion would happen sooner, but growth has been modest. Once the Midtown Tunnel bottleneck is resolved, downtown Norfolk should resume it's rightful place as the dominant CBD, with Greenbrier and TC as strong, secondary centers.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

Urbanlife, why are you so sure that VB town center will outgrow downtown norfolk? I'm not sure I'm following your line of reasoning.

Could it be the exciting view of Pembroke Mall?

Could it be the appeal of the chain restaurants?

Could it be all the things to do like the comedy club and ................

Seriously, I wish nothing but success for Town Center but I find the suggestion that it will outgrow downtown Norfolk a real stretch.

[metalman]

If I can take a stab at the question. Not that I'm answering for urbanlife but, he might mean it in that, Norfolk has some strong natural boarders like the Elizabeth River on two sides and eastward the historic Ghent (to some degree), and the interstate, while Virginia Beach has sprawled suburban shopping centers, and seas of surface parking that can probably be much more easily bought and redeveloped to fit the urban landscape for downtown VB. North, downtown vb has a boarder of the Pembroke manor and Aragona neighborhoods, the intersate would act as a boarder going south, but the urban development can spread east and west 'till the cows come home. Thus, VB would be able to grow bigger than Norfolk. I'm not saying better, but bigger.

...was I close Urbanlife? That's my take on it anyway.

[Marco757]

I don't think we need to get caught up in an argument over TC vs. downtown etc. I live in downtown Norfolk and I'm would not live anywhere else in the entire area. I'm very proud of the Norfolk city leaders, mainly Paul Fraim for taking this city with little resources it has and lack of support from all other city governments and basically no real substantial suburbs to speak of and doing what it has done. Norfolk is a core city without suburbs and has forged ahead against all odds and really been a model for the other cities in the area, especially va. beach which lacks serious leadership. I hate that we live in a state that has city and county separation...it keeps the entire region from forging ahead as fast as other metro regions.

Having said all that TC in Va. Beach is just a product of what the cities have to do to survive and keep that tax base going. I think they've done a good job so far especially in bringing rest. etc. to the area which would have never come to downtown because of the nature of the "new chains" and the "corporate" world. You have to have easy access and a large volume of people to bring the chains constant business. I wish the conversation would be more about when the heck are Norfolk and Va. Beach gonna merge into one city? Probably never...., maybe if va. beach had better leadership we would already be talking about light rail from downtown orf to TC.

[urbanlife]

If I can take a stab at the question. Not that I'm answering for urbanlife but, he might mean it in that, Norfolk has some strong natural boarders like the Elizabeth River on two sides and eastward the historic Ghent (to some degree), and the interstate, while Virginia Beach has sprawled suburban shopping centers, and seas of surface parking that can probably be much more easily bought and redeveloped to fit the urban landscape for downtown VB. North, downtown vb has a boarder of the Pembroke manor and Aragona neighborhoods, the intersate would act as a boarder going south, but the urban development can spread east and west 'till the cows come home. Thus, VB would be able to grow bigger than Norfolk. I'm not saying better, but bigger.

...was I close Urbanlife? That's my take on it anyway.

Yeah that is pretty much dead on. I never said anything about being better, just bigger. By land development alone it has a better chance of being the bigger downtown, it is already the bigger city.

I look at cities like Bellevue and Seattle where I am closer to now and Bellevue is growing at an insane rate. Now that might be a loose comparison, but Developers like being able to use larger footprints and having complete control over their development. I think VB will be more allowing to these developers. Hell we have all seen how VB has handled its suburban growth with developers, I don't see them changing this approach with urban developers. Oh and that Pembroke Mall land is the same size as a huge chunk of developed land in Norfolk, don't think for a minute that that mall will be there forever.

Now I may of been from VB, but I always had a strong love for Norfolk, it was my big city downtown when I was a kid. Too me, Norfolk is the city for all the culture, music, urban living, and so on. And I would love for anything to see Norfolk become the Boston of the Mid Atlantic. (they have the same color water even) I might be talking too big for Norfolk, but that is how I feel. Although I am still against them getting a pro team to some degree. I don't want to see Norfolk having to foot the bill for loser later on in life. But if you need a team, we have the wonderful Trailblazers I would be happy to give you.

Actually I would love to see Norfolk focusing on small businesses and small retail. I think if they turned the city into an incubator for these things, it will in no time become the stronger of the two cities. Seattle has had so many small companies turn into Fortune 500 giants, I see no reason why Norfolk can't do the same.

[spiker3]

Couldn't take some good ones street side, but here's two pics of St Pauls Place, you can see the condos and lofts buildings in them.

[vdogg]

Hmm...That's the first time i've seen the backside of St. Pauls. Even though it's not as visible I think they could've done more with that.

[okinawatyphoon]

Wow, I was not very aware of this development, but it looks pretty good to me.

[urbanlife]

the development actually looks good, wish it would of been denser for the location it is downtown, but all and all it isnt that bad.

[Padman]

If you told me that I was looking at public housing behind a small residential development in downtown Franklin I would believe it. I've never understood why the city built that stuff in the cbd right beside a regional mall.