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River Market Tower/Place


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the man - you are absolutley correct about the competitive pressure on Tulsa. And yes, don't get me wrong, Alltel is 100 times better than Barton! I was just making the point, as I did some time ago, that Alltel proved to be a very low end arena compared to several recently built or being built in similar markets. Given that however, it has been VERY successful...one of the top 15 drawing arenas in the country. I believe that I read the other day that one recent month, it drew over 300,000 people.

BTW - Alltel was $80M about 7 years ago, which you could "almost" double in today's dollars from the rapid construction cost escalation (it would cost at least $120M-$130M).

You are right, Alltel would've had to be half the capacity it is now because of that.

Ever been to Bud Walton? It's amazing that was built for less than $30 million. Construction materials, including steel, have just become ridiculously pricy.

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You are right, Alltel would've had to be half the capacity it is now because of that.

Ever been to Bud Walton? It's amazing that was built for less than $30 million. Construction materials, including steel, have just become ridiculously pricy.

Well, what would have happened is that they would just have spent whatever cost was required for that capacity. I always thought the "let's tax 1% for one year and see what we can build" as it related to Alltel Arena was bass-ackwards. No one in leadership at the time ever really seemed to set the criteria or standards for the facility, then garner a realistic budget for that criteria, then work backwards into the length of time required for the tax revenue to match that budget. I don't imagine that a 16 month sunset (rather than the 12) would have really affected the constituency to the point that it wouldn't have passed, but it sure would have had a major impact on the end product.

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Well, what would have happened is that they would just have spent whatever cost was required for that capacity. I always thought the "let's tax 1% for one year and see what we can build" as it related to Alltel Arena was bass-ackwards. No one in leadership at the time ever really seemed to set the criteria or standards for the facility, then garner a realistic budget for that criteria, then work backwards into the length of time required for the tax revenue to match that budget. I don't imagine that a 16 month sunset (rather than the 12) would have really affected the constituency to the point that it wouldn't have passed, but it sure would have had a major impact on the end product.

While I agree with that, you seldom see taxes set up that way. Voters tend to loathe open-ended taxes. It was hard enough to get an arena tax approved, it had been rebuffed multiple times in the past.

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While I agree with that, you seldom see taxes set up that way. Voters tend to loathe open-ended taxes. It was hard enough to get an arena tax approved, it had been rebuffed multiple times in the past.

I didn't mean to imply open-ended. I meant that perhaps they should have made it a 16 or 18 month tax rather than the 12.

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the man - you are absolutley correct about the competitive pressure on Tulsa. And yes, don't get me wrong, Alltel is 100 times better than Barton! I was just making the point, as I did some time ago, that Alltel proved to be a very low end arena compared to several recently built or being built in similar markets. Given that however, it has been VERY successful...one of the top 15 drawing arenas in the country. I believe that I read the other day that one recent month, it drew over 300,000 people.

BTW - Alltel was $80M about 7 years ago, which you could "almost" double in today's dollars from the rapid construction cost escalation (it would cost at least $120M-$130M).

You are right, as others have stated, about the inflation in the cost of contruction arenas now. They are going to build one in downtown Wichita that is going to be twice the cost of Alltel but have 3000 less seats. Louisville's new downtown arena is going to cost in the $250-$280 million range and doesn't include other outside cost that is going to take the whole project up to the $400 million range.

With all of the failures in getting an arena built, we were lucky that the 1 year tax passed in order to get Alltel built. I too wish it would have a fresher design, but I'm glad it's there.

Take a look at Ford Center in OKC. It's not too dissimilar to Alltel in appearance - brick facade, white roof. It was built for less than $100 million as well.

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You are right, as others have stated, about the inflation in the cost of contruction arenas now. They are going to build one in downtown Wichita that is going to be twice the cost of Alltel but have 3000 less seats. Louisville's new downtown arena is going to cost in the $250-$280 million range and doesn't include other outside cost that is going to take the whole project up to the $400 million range.

With all of the failures in getting an arena built, we were lucky that the 1 year tax passed in order to get Alltel built. I too wish it would have a fresher design, but I'm glad it's there.

Take a look at Ford Center in OKC. It's not too dissimilar to Alltel in appearance - brick facade, white roof. It was built for less than $100 million as well.

True, but what you wouldn't know about the Ford Center in OKC from the outside is that it was built to a much higher standard - aka NBA, etc. - as it has multiple concourses (not one like Alltel) that feed the different levels of seating..specifically one dedicated to the skyboxes, etc. The exterior is just one aspect. The Ford Center has a lot more amenities than Alltel enabling it to be an acceptable host for an NBA team. Alltel would not have been an acceptable host arena.

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True, but what you wouldn't know about the Ford Center in OKC from the outside is that it was built to a much higher standard - aka NBA, etc. - as it has multiple concourses (not one like Alltel) that feed the different levels of seating..specifically one dedicated to the skyboxes, etc. The exterior is just one aspect. The Ford Center has a lot more amenities than Alltel enabling it to be an acceptable host for an NBA team. Alltel would not have been an acceptable host arena.

I agree. Now that I've been to a few NBA-caliber arenas the difference is clear. Alltel's far from that league. Like Dickey-Stephens sometimes our civic leaders are comparing to our old standard (Ray Winder, Barton) rather than what our peers are doing. That said, it is something we built the arena at all. We were so thrilled about it and patting our butts about it that we weren't paying attention to the quality. Multiple concourses would be nice but more amenities on the existing concourse would be nice as well.

That said, the Ford Center is terribly ugly on the exterior, IMO.

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Is there any chance that the city will make significant upgrades to Alltel in the future? It seems like most cities just build a new arena, and that obviously wouldn't make sense for LR, but as Alltel becomes more outdated it's going to become a blemish to downtown (imagine Barton on I-30).

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True, but what you wouldn't know about the Ford Center in OKC from the outside is that it was built to a much higher standard - aka NBA, etc. - as it has multiple concourses (not one like Alltel) that feed the different levels of seating..specifically one dedicated to the skyboxes, etc. The exterior is just one aspect. The Ford Center has a lot more amenities than Alltel enabling it to be an acceptable host for an NBA team. Alltel would not have been an acceptable host arena.

True, OKC built Ford Center in the hopes of eventually getting an NBA or NHL team, the reason for the multiple concourses and other amenities that Alltel doesn't have. Little Rock built Alltel just to have a better alternative than Barton. It was cheaper to build Alltel with one concourse (something you will never see in arenas that size again). Little Rock wasn't looking to bring in a pro franchise, just to host minor league teams, SEC and NCAA events and concerts. For that purpose it's an adequate venue. Without Alltel many of the events that it has hosted would not have come to Little Rock.

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I agree. Now that I've been to a few NBA-caliber arenas the difference is clear. Alltel's far from that league. Like Dickey-Stephens sometimes our civic leaders are comparing to our old standard (Ray Winder, Barton) rather than what our peers are doing. That said, it is something we built the arena at all. We were so thrilled about it and patting our butts about it that we weren't paying attention to the quality. Multiple concourses would be nice but more amenities on the existing concourse would be nice as well.

That said, the Ford Center is terribly ugly on the exterior, IMO.

Yes Alltel is going to be out of its league when compared to FedEx Forum, American Airlines Center, AT&T Center and Toyota Center, just to name a few regional NBA arenas. Those were built for hundreds of millions of dollars to host NBA and with American Airlines Center NBA and NHL.

I guess I'm not as quick to bash Alltel because it could not be here and Little Rock could be like Jackson or Huntsville with older smaller arenas. Not having the multiple concourses is no big deal to me (maybe it would be if I were a suite holder :rolleyes: ). The one concourse is very wide which I'm glad of since there is only one. You are right that there could be some more amenities on the concourse and in the arena itself (halo scoreboard anyone).

I'm going to hold my judgement on Dickey Stephens. The exterior maybe boring but others have save the inside is going to be great. I'll pass judgement once I take a look for myself.

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  • 5 weeks later...

The website has been completely updated with much more information, but is still a work in progress. There appear to be a few units sold, already.

http://www.rivermarkettower.com/

Cool website.

Note it said "groundbreaking will take place this summer". That's encouraging.

It will be nice to see the cranes up in downtown again with this project and the new tower at the Wyndham in NLR.

I wonder when the Hampton Inn portion of the project will start?

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Cool website.

Note it said "groundbreaking will take place this summer". That's encouraging.

It will be nice to see the cranes up in downtown again with this project and the new tower at the Wyndham in NLR.

I wonder when the Hampton Inn portion of the project will start?

The last I heard on the hotel project is that construction was to start in May.

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Cool website.

Note it said "groundbreaking will take place this summer". That's encouraging.

It will be nice to see the cranes up in downtown again with this project and the new tower at the Wyndham in NLR.

I wonder when the Hampton Inn portion of the project will start?

When is the Wyndham tower suppose start contruction?

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Haven't posted in quite a while, but still visit the site often. Ran across this article on Todays THV website, and could be related to this project, I am specifically pointing out the bookstore mention. This article was from 3/22/07 :

Moses says he certainly can't take all the credit for the River Market's success. He says a lot is owed to the city's

leadership during the last 15 years. As far as the new attractions coming soon, Moses says you can expect another hotel,

more condominiums, a neighborhood grocery store and a popular bookstore in the very near future.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=43375

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As far as the new attractions coming soon, Moses says you can expect another hotel,

more condominiums, a neighborhood grocery store and a popular bookstore in the very near future.

That's a very encouraging statement. Obviously, you have to wonder what the bookstore would be. Borders?

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Haven't posted in quite a while, but still visit the site often. Ran across this article on Todays THV website, and could be related to this project, I am specifically pointing out the bookstore mention. This article was from 3/22/07 :

Moses says he certainly can't take all the credit for the River Market's success. He says a lot is owed to the city's

leadership during the last 15 years. As far as the new attractions coming soon, Moses says you can expect another hotel,

more condominiums, a neighborhood grocery store and a popular bookstore in the very near future.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=43375

I wonder what effect this would have on the bookstore at the Cox building.

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What bookstores are usually located in downtown environments?

Barnes and Nobles? Hot Springs has a Borders affiliate in the mall (Walden Books).

I've seen a downtown Barnes and Noble before.

Waldenbooks, Brentano's etc have been closing in a lot of locations, I haven't seen many new ones.

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Im thinking something smaller than a Barnes and Noble....maybe a border's.

maybe Wordsworth... I'm not in the know. But, Mr. Moses has always made a worthwhile effort to solicit local businesses. I know that both the owner of Beans and Grains (pre Wild Oats obviously) was encouraged to get back into the grocery business and open a River Market store. Also, the owner of Hestands looked at a Moses proposal for a grocery store in the River Market.

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Haven't posted in quite a while, but still visit the site often. Ran across this article on Todays THV website, and could be related to this project, I am specifically pointing out the bookstore mention. This article was from 3/22/07 :

Moses says he certainly can't take all the credit for the River Market's success. He says a lot is owed to the city's

leadership during the last 15 years. As far as the new attractions coming soon, Moses says you can expect another hotel,

more condominiums, a neighborhood grocery store and a popular bookstore in the very near future.

http://www.todaysthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=43375

Also, does he mean another hotel besides the Hampton Inn that is going to be a part of River Market Place.

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