Lake Norman Urbanization and Projects

[jednc]

This development will be across Hwy 21 from the backside of Birkdale. Any connectivity with BV will require crossing a busy US Hwy. Unless they build a pedestrian bridge across 21, then there will be no connection other than your car.

[monsoon]

^You should look at the map of Upper McDowell Creek Greenway. It ends right by this development and no doubt the requirement will be there with the road improvements to give direct access to it. That will put it in walking access of literally 10,000 homes once the Greenway is completed.

[jednc]

I sincerely hope you are right. I would just worry about crossing Hwy 21. I live near the proposed Greenway, so nothing would make me happier than to be able to walk to this new development.

[uptownliving]

The Observer has reported that this will be going between I-77 and US 21...which puts it east of I-77. Is this correct?

EDIT: This pic from the Huntersville Herald answered my question. This will be East of I-77.

The entire story from the Herald is now online.

The Herald reports that Carlsen-Douglas and Bromont are equal partners in this project. I have a lot more faith in this project now that I know Carlsen-Douglas is part of it. They have done some respectable developments in the past.

Edited February 17, 2007 by uptownliving

[monsoon]

When you add in Bryton and the Langtree mixed use new urbanist developments, this means that 2,100,000 sq ft of upscale retail space has been announced for Huntersville, Davidson and Cornelius. If you add in some smaller TOD projects on the proposed rail line, this number rises to about 2.5 million sq. ft. This is an amazing amount of retail if all of it is built and I would predict it will shift shopping patterns in this region.

[DigitalSky]

I would predict it will shift shopping patterns in this region.

if not oversaturate the market.

[e2ksj3]

^ I agree, and Northlake would not only be affected, but so would Birkdale Village and other shopping centers around the area. I can see maybe adding something like that 10 years from now (and of course near one of the North line stations) when population around the lake is larger and support it.

[nova72asu]

485 through there wont even begin construction until 2013 and this mall is a relatively long way away from Gaston county. Those people are more likely to shop at malls in Gaston or go to Southpark themselves rather than to make the log drive to exit 18.

I'm originally from Gastonia. I know lots of Gastonians that travel to Northlake Mall. The drive there isnt that bad, especially if you know your way through the rural roads, rather than taking I-85 E to I-77 N.

Edited February 20, 2007 by nova72asu

[nyxmike]

I'm originally from Gastonia. I know lots of Gastonians that travel to Northlake Mall. The drive there isnt that bad, especially if you know your way through the rural roads, rather than taking I-85 E to I-77 N.

I'm sure there will be a lot more once I-485 opens to I-77 North. I really think once 485 opens, it will boost traffic at the mall. I am sure a lot of the retailers there are going to sit and wait and see what happens. I used to work retail at SouthPark, and they opened the same store I used to work at at Northlake. I know the manager over at NL and he said they have been doing pretty good and making their days most of the time (however, their days - moneywise - are a lot lower than SouthPark).

[DigitalSky]

I know this is premature, but does anyone know when possible tenants will be revealed?

[nowensone]

I'm sure there will be a lot more once I-485 opens to I-77 North. I really think once 485 opens, it will boost traffic at the mall. I am sure a lot of the retailers there are going to sit and wait and see what happens. I used to work retail at SouthPark, and they opened the same store I used to work at at Northlake. I know the manager over at NL and he said they have been doing pretty good and making their days most of the time (however, their days - moneywise - are a lot lower than SouthPark).

Unless a national retailer with deep pockets, don't see how they could wait like this for years. Was just driving by there the other day and was amazed how remote much of the immediate area is around Northlake, it must have been a helluva spec mall when first opened.

[monsoon]

There was a regional mall proposed for this area as far back as the early 1980s. I believe the proposal was originally from the Belk family. There was also a proposal to place a mall at the junction I-77 & I-85. Neither idea was thought viable until a few years ago when NorthLake was built. The problem with that area is that it sits on the edge of Charlotte in the middle of an area that is mostly industrial and office buildings, and against the outer Huntersville zone of influence.

On the Charlotte side, I can't see where there are going to be a lot of people that want to move into that area unless it is low end starter home development which is mostly what is going up there, along with cheap apartments. This is not good for the mall's business. Huntersville on the other hand which did not want that mall built, has zoned all of that land near the mall to be in its rural overlay which means that very few homes or anything else will be built near that mall.

Obviously the mall was hoping to attract the growing population center around Lake Norman and in that it has failed and/or failing. There was a article today that said that Huntersville's population was now at 40K and none of it is close to NorthLake. I think if they approve the Village of Lake Norman and the other announced developments, NorthLake is going to die a slow death just like Eastland did though it will come much faster since there owners presumably are far away from making their money back on that property. I have mixed feelings if the huge SuperTarget and other similar development will help or hurt that mall, but its my guess they will hurt it. At best it might hang on in a similar manner as Eastridge mall in Gastonia, but the fact that Gastonians want to make that terrible drive to NorthLake is indication enough of how well that mall is doing.

[tiblerbrit]

Everyone I know in the University Area goes to Northlake Mall or Southpark, but primarily Northlake unless they want to make a trip out of it. Eastland Mall used to be the mall everyone in the University area had to go to 10 years ago, and now Northlake has replaced it. Concord Mills fills another niche and most people I know are a lot less enamored by that mall than Northlake. I'm not sure if there are figures to support the claim that Northlake isn't doing very well, but I also know alot of people in Huntersville/Cornelius/Davidson that go to Northlake too.

[monsoon]

.... I'm not sure if there are figures to support the claim that Northlake isn't doing very well, but I also know alot of people in Huntersville/Cornelius/Davidson that go to Northlake too.

There was a post and a link made here that said sales at NorthLake for the first year were just 50% of what was expected.

[DigitalSky]

There was a post and a link made here that said sales at NorthLake for the first year were just 50% of what was expected.

Yeah i think they expected $440/sq foot and only made half.

[monsoon]

I was over by this property yesterday and interestingly there are now large For Sale signs on the property that have "Under Contract" listed on them so it would seem the developer had indeed made an offer on the property. This would seem to include the former Lake House Restaurant and Lake Norman Tractor. I forgot there is already a large new Urbanist development across the street from part of this called Oakhurst (around Bailey Rd) so there will be a lot of people that can immediately walk to the place. The other side of 21 at Westmoreland is also vacant land so I can see this transforming into a fairly populated area if Cornelius decides to let this project go forwards.

As a side note to his, Cornelius voted this past week to impose a 5 month moratorium on new residential approvals within the city to again look at re-vamping their zoning codes to try and control growth. Not sure how the freeze will affect this development but it's sure to be included in the talks.

I think the city should be very careful about letting Westmoreland being turned into Exit 26 lest they create another Exit 25 mess.

[DigitalSky]

I was over by this property yesterday and interestingly there are now large For Sale signs on the property that have "Under Contract" listed on them so it would seem the developer had indeed made an offer on the property. This would seem to include the former Lake House Restaurant and Lake Norman Tractor. I forgot there is already a large new Urbanist development across the street from part of this called Oakhurst (around Bailey Rd) so there will be a lot of people that can immediately walk to the place. The other side of 21 at Westmoreland is also vacant land so I can see this transforming into a fairly populated area if Cornelius decides to let this project go forwards.

As a side note to his, Cornelius voted this past week to impose a 5 month moratorium on new residential approvals within the city to again look at re-vamping their zoning codes to try and control growth. Not sure how the freeze will affect this development but it's sure to be included in the talks.

I think the city should be very careful about letting Westmoreland being turned into Exit 26 lest they create another Exit 25 mess.

I wonder how the residents of Oakhrust will take to the nearly 1 million square feet of retail coming up across the street.

[monsoon]

^I am thinking they are nervous as hell about it. I know someone, oddly enough who lives downtown but owns an investment condo in there, that is very happy about it as he thinks it means is property value will go up. On the other hand, if I lived in there I would be very interested in the details because I would be worried about the traffic.

[StevenRocks]

If this project goes as planned. it can't help but affect Northlake. Whether that means a deathknell remains to be seen, but it's certainly not going to improve business. Just like Eastland's middle-class base shifted to Northlake, Northlake's could shift to the Village at Lake Norman and related properties.

[mallguy]

I think a few things will go in favor of Northlake suriving (though not thriving) for a few years and then doing OK:

1. The population of north Mecklenburg is projected to soar in the next decade. There should be plenty of customers for Birkdale, Northlake and the new center.

2. Taubman is the Rolls-Royce of mall owners; it has had a few misses (Columbus City Center, Shops at Willow Bend and a few others) but it runs a stable of impressive luxury malls. I don't see it failing.

3. Department stores are on the rebound. Birkdale doesn't have any, and perhaps the new center won't either. I think lifestyle center developers are going to be regretting not having department stores, if current trends continue.

4. How many malls quickly fail? Not many, other than Greenville Mall in SC.

Has anyone looked at Taubman's SEC filings (particularly its 10-K and 8-Ks, available on sec.gov)? I haven't.

[DigitalSky]

I think a few things will go in favor of Northlake suriving (though not thriving) for a few years and then doing OK:

1. The population of north Mecklenburg is projected to soar in the next decade. There should be plenty of customers for Birkdale, Northlake and the new center.

2. Taubman is the Rolls-Royce of mall owners; it has had a few misses (Columbus City Center, Shops at Willow Bend and a few others) but it runs a stable of impressive luxury malls. I don't see it failing.

3. Department stores are on the rebound. Birkdale doesn't have any, and perhaps the new center won't either. I think lifestyle center developers are going to be regretting not having department stores, if current trends continue.

4. How many malls quickly fail? Not many, other than Greenville Mall in SC.

Has anyone looked at Taubman's SEC filings (particularly its 10-K and 8-Ks, available on sec.gov)? I haven't.

IMO, I think there will be department stores at The Village at Lake Norman, and my predictions are Saks and J.C. Penney (i think Steven and I agreed on that), and the junior anchor proabbly a Best Buy and Whole Foods as the grocer. I think Earth Fare or Fresh Market could be other possibilities, but one of the 3 will go into the soon-to-be-former HT at Torrence Chapel

[rjp212]

There's a best buy going in at Exit 36 so I highly doubt Exit 26/27 will have one.

I definetly could see a Saks though.

[DigitalSky]

There's a best buy going in at Exit 36 so I highly doubt Exit 26/27 will have one.

I definetly could see a Saks though.

Circuit City then?

[monsoon]

The developer of this place said the stores here would be "very upscale" to use his terminology. Circuit city nor Best Buy would seem to fit that category.

[DigitalSky]

The developer of this place said the stores here would be "very upscale" to use his terminology. Circuit city nor Best Buy would seem to fit that category.

I realize that, so I had said Tweeter earlier or one of the sort, but then I started to think what some people see as fodder may be different, and the demographic for this area is not 100% upscale. As is the case with J.C. Penney, I believe that despite how upscale Saks is, there will be something needed to balance its upscale-ness so it made sense to add them to the mix. Plus, we do have fewer JCP stores in the region than most comparable regions. The other thing was, I couldn't think of any other upscale department store that could come besides Saks. Bloomingdales? No, if they wanted to come they'd have built at SouthPark Macy's. There's maybe a slim possibility of Nordstrom building a second store, but I really don't see that happening, not just yet anyway. So we've pretty much run out of dept stores now since anyway most dept stores have become consolidated. I honestly highly doubt that any of the stores at Northlake would create a duplicate store at this exit (Belk, Dillard's, Macy's) as well. Could it quite possibily be an untraditional dept store? yes, I think I'd welcome that so it'll be absorbing to watch....