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Urban development in Cary?

JunktionFET

By JunktionFET
in The NC Triangle

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Cary NC Whistle-Stop

Cary NC

Posted
Posted

Does anyone know how much Cary is spending for the DT streetscape improvements? A WRAL story said it was $33 million which I find hard to believe-maybe $3.3 million.

WRAL story

I believe it is actually a $150M project over the next 15-20 years. Here is a link of the area map that the redevelopments will include.

http://www.townofcary.org/depts/dsdept/P&a.../landusemap.htm

I do know this includes

Parking deck DT

New DT park with amphitheatre

Construction of Digital Media Library

Converting the old CaryElementary school to a Cultural Arts Center

Moving the Old Waldo Rood House to make room for the Parking Deck

Acquring a lot of propety for new roads and connector feeds.

Sketches provided above kind of show that.

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rooster8 Hamlet

rooster8

Posted
Posted

What a waste. I was excited about the possibilities of a what could be. But I guess we'll just have another "lifestyle center" in its place.

I'll go ahead and make a prediction: In 20 years they will tear down this new center and say something like "Early 21st century design has not aged well, whether in fashion, architecture or hairstyles."

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ncsugrad204 Unincorporated Area

ncsugrad204

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What a waste. I was excited about the possibilities of a what could be. But I guess we'll just have another "lifestyle center" in its place.

I'll go ahead and make a prediction: In 20 years they will tear down this new center and say something like "Early 21st century design has not aged well, whether in fashion, architecture or hairstyles."

This is not a waste! It will be a great center for people living in the near by area. check out the renderings :rolleyes:

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Brendan Unincorporated Area

Brendan

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This is not a waste! It will be a great center for people living in the near by area. check out the renderings :rolleyes:

I agree! I would love to have something like the new North Hills complex in Cary. It should do very well. (Please let this include a McAlister's Deli.) I doubt we'll end up seeing a movie theater though with this being close to Crossroads 20 and the new Beaver Creek theaters.

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orulz City

orulz

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Posted

This is a prime example of how mixed use and density do not equate to "urban", and also of how density is not always desirable. This development will be 100% internally focused; surrounded by parking lots and outparcel retail on all sides. It will not relate to its surroundings at all (but what is there to relate to? nothing.) Nobody will walk to it and nobody will ever think of this place as even remotely accessible by public transportation. The neighborhood has abysmal interconnection, as all vehicular traffic from anywhere or to anywhere in the vicinity MUST be funneled onto one of two (already congested) thoroughfares: Tryon Road or Kildaire Farm Road.

Given this place's location and surroundings, I'm not surprised in the least at how it's turning out, but I think Cary was stupid to allow the developer to turn such a terribly interconnected area with absolutely zero potential for walkability into such a concentration of high-density activity. The existing Wal-Mart, WakeMed, this, and whatever other projects follow will turn the area into a maelstrom of traffic, congestion, ugly parking lots, visual clutter, and pedestrian death traps matched only by Crossroads and Brier Creek.

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DwnTwnRaleighGuy Hamlet

DwnTwnRaleighGuy

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This is a prime example of how mixed use and density do not equate to "urban", and also of how density is not always desirable. This development will be 100% internally focused; surrounded by parking lots and outparcel retail on all sides. It will not relate to its surroundings at all (but what is there to relate to? nothing.) Nobody will walk to it and nobody will ever think of this place as even remotely accessible by public transportation. The neighborhood has abysmal interconnection, as all vehicular traffic from anywhere or to anywhere in the vicinity MUST be funneled onto one of two (already congested) thoroughfares: Tryon Road or Kildaire Farm Road.

Given this place's location and surroundings, I'm not surprised in the least at how it's turning out, but I think Cary was stupid to allow the developer to turn such a terribly interconnected area with absolutely zero potential for walkability into such a concentration of high-density activity. The existing Wal-Mart, WakeMed, this, and whatever other projects follow will turn the area into a maelstrom of traffic, congestion, ugly parking lots, visual clutter, and pedestrian death traps matched only by Crossroads and Brier Creek.

Agreed!!!

It sounds just like the "good-ole" Cary that we have come to know and *#&@/

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ncsugrad204 Unincorporated Area

ncsugrad204

Posted
Posted

So let me take all of your complaints as if Cary trys to focus on intense development they lose if they let subdivisions spread to chatmen county they lose. You are asking to put a square peg into a round hole. We do not live in New York or Wyoming. We live in an area that has made past mistake. To ask for pure urban connect is to tear down walmart, realign roads and build pedestrian bridges. This is better than what is there because it invlove people living working and entertaining in their neighborhoods. I understand everyones non approval of such things (NOT) <_< but please stop the Cary has done nothing right.

P.S. wait til it is built to complain!!!!!!!! :tough:

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Jones_ City

Jones_

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Posted

Orulz is right. While you might save some car trips at lunch because office workers probably can eat on site somewhere, it misses urban by a long shot. This whole area around Regency and Western Wake is very dense but buildings are poorly oriented, streets are massive primary arterials and off individual parcels, pedestrians are an afterthought...an inconvenience to traffic. Waverly failed for reasons beyond its too modern design and tastes of customers...what bs that is. I never went there because, like Orulz pointed out, I was forced onto either Tryon or Kildaire, both of which suck at all times of day. If the adjoining neighborhoods had street grids that tied into teh major roads all over town, WAverly would have been a commercial district amongst a grid of varied activity...but as it is around there, even nearby residents had to drive there...kinda anti Whole Foods mantra if you ask me.

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JTsaysToYou Whistle-Stop

JTsaysToYou

Posted
Posted

This is a prime example of how mixed use and density do not equate to "urban", and also of how density is not always desirable. This development will be 100% internally focused; surrounded by parking lots and outparcel retail on all sides. It will not relate to its surroundings at all (but what is there to relate to? nothing.) Nobody will walk to it and nobody will ever think of this place as even remotely accessible by public transportation. The neighborhood has abysmal interconnection, as all vehicular traffic from anywhere or to anywhere in the vicinity MUST be funneled onto one of two (already congested) thoroughfares: Tryon Road or Kildaire Farm Road.

Given this place's location and surroundings, I'm not surprised in the least at how it's turning out, but I think Cary was stupid to allow the developer to turn such a terribly interconnected area with absolutely zero potential for walkability into such a concentration of high-density activity. The existing Wal-Mart, WakeMed, this, and whatever other projects follow will turn the area into a maelstrom of traffic, congestion, ugly parking lots, visual clutter, and pedestrian death traps matched only by Crossroads and Brier Creek.

Before you go and talk about how "terribly planned" this place is, maybe you should take 2 seconds to think, or talk to a resident. I live in lochmere, the largest neighborhood in that area, and in case you didnt know, lochmere is completely covered in sidewalks and bike paths all the way up to waverly place. I walk there every now and then to go rent movies and such, but if there were actually running stores in waverly place (like there will be once they redo it) I will walk there MUCH more frequently, as I will have an incintive to do so. This is a big step for urbanity in that it actually gives people in the lochmere area and surrounding neighborhoods somewhere to walk to.

This should be great for cary once it's said and done.

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Jones_ City

Jones_

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Posted

Map of the area.

I'm not seeing any connection unless there are excercise trails through the woods. nice perhaps, but not urban. Walking through some buffer woods does not equal a walkable community....Why couldn't all those dead ends in Lochmere punch straight through to New Waverly Place? Possibly lined with townhouses up the hill from the lake?

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orulz City

orulz

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Posted

Any neighborhood where you have to travel 1.4 miles to go a straight line distance of 1/4 mile is suburban and poorly interconnected.

Sidewalks are an important part of an urban neighborhood, but sidewalks alone DO NOT make a neighborhood urban. Sidewalks can make suburban neighborhoods "Go for a walk-able" where people can walk their dogs or jog for exercise, but that is not a walkable neighborhood. In my observation, in these sorts of areas, the sidewalks carry very few trips with actual destinations (stores, schools, work). Not having lived in Lochmere, I'll allow that your neighborhood may be an exception, but I doubt it. I would guess that a lot of people living in Lochmere work at WakeMed Cary, and I would also guess that 99% of them drive to work.

I'm just pulling numbers out of a hat, but there are probably about 5 or 6 hundred homes within a 1/2 mile walk of Waverly Place. At a distance of 1/2 mile, in an auto-oriented neighborhood like this, perhaps 1 or 2 percent of the population would choose to walk rather than drive. At 1/4 mile the percentage of people who walk might increase a bit, but then the number of homes within a 1/4 mile walk of Waverly is significantly less, too. (150?)

Why? This is a suburban neighborhood not made for walking. If one were to choose to walk, you'd have to dodge cars swerving in at multiple driveways, and you'd have nothing to walk by to hold your interest. No storefronts, no sidewalk cafes - only landscaping designed to look pretty at 45mph, parking lots, and driveways. Not to mention the "unfavorable" dimensions of the Tryon / Kildare intersection.

This development, as planned, does absolutely NOTHING to improve the area from the pedestrian's perspective. A pedestrian will still have to walk by the same 45mph landscaping and drive-thrus, and will have to cross a large moat of surface or structured parking in order to reach the interior of this development where it's actually designed to be people-friendly.

I'm not saying your neighborhood isn't a great place to live - I'm sure it is. But it is definitely not urban, and in my opinion, allowing this level of density in such a thoroughly suburban neighborhood is not a good idea.

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Cary NC Whistle-Stop

Cary NC

Posted
Posted

I know nothing truly urban in the Triangle by some of the definitions above. I guess I am saying I know of no urban site in the Triangle where ALL the residents work, shop, entertain themselves within a 1/4 mile of their home. I am sure if I am wrong someone will let me know where this truly urban spot is.

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Jones_ City

Jones_

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Posted

I know nothing truly urban in the Triangle by some of the definitions above. I guess I am saying I know of no urban site in the Triangle where ALL the residents work, shop, entertain themselves within a 1/4 mile of their home. I am sure if I am wrong someone will let me know where this truly urban spot is.

Thats the point. Thats why its so important to do things right....there is very little that comes close. We are recovering from the damage of the post war period (1950's on). Cameron Village is sortof close. Pilot Mill/Blount Street will be eventually. If downtown proper gets more amenities it will be. Five points was lacking jobs but had a grocery until about 6 years ago. The current pattern of development...even these pseudo Waverly versions of urbanity....are difficult to sustain...

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ChiefJoJo Town

ChiefJoJo

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Posted

I know nothing truly urban in the Triangle by some of the definitions above. I guess I am saying I know of no urban site in the Triangle where ALL the residents work, shop, entertain themselves within a 1/4 mile of their home. I am sure if I am wrong someone will let me know where this truly urban spot is.

Whoa... there is a *LOT* of room for improvement between the utopia you speak of (that no one is realistically arguing for I believe) and the type of development going in at Waverly. I don't really blame the developers, as much as the development regs in Cary (and many other places) that allowed the rediculous lack of connections in that area. Can anyone look at this map and say with a straight face that the road arrangement in that aerial makes any sense whatsoever. Forget about zoning, planning, urban, suburban... a 5 year old could look at that and see the problem.

Some communties, such as Huntersville (near Charlotte) are actually attempting to remove some strategic 80s era cul-de-sacs by punching through collector streets for connectivity. It may seem extreme to some, but I think it's something we should push for when the opportunity presents itself. Connectivity reduces traffic on main arteries, allows for shorter trips, and walking, biking, etc.

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JTsaysToYou Whistle-Stop

JTsaysToYou

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Posted

To start off with, I don't think your definitions of urban are accurate or realistic. If you honestly think you can find anywhere in North Carolina where someone's job, places to buy clothes, convience stores, movie theaters, grocery stores, etc. are within a 1/4 mile radius, you're insane. That is not what urbanity is. When you have a truly urban lifestyle, you have to walk. Do you think people, even in NYC of Tokyo have everything they need in a 1/4 mile radius? And that they aren't willing to walk 3 miles for something? By your standards, NYC itself isn't urban. We need to be realistic guys. You have to realize that while redoing Waverly place won't make Cary urban overnight, it is a step in the right direction for an area with a lot of potential. That area of cary, within a 4-5 mile radius has a lot of shopping, (had/will have again) a gym, Koka Booth Amphitheater, and grocery stores. Yes all the neighborhoods aren't aligned in a grid, but do you have to be in a grid to be urban? I think a few trails through the woods, and a few other little things like that could easily make the area as connectable as downtown (not by car mind you, but pedestrian wise). A slowing of the speed limit could help, and maybe a pedestrian bridge or two, but the point is this area has MAJOR potential, and with a little bit of sprucing up, could be very urban. Not to mention, It's safe, which is something north hills and crabtree will never have (I have friends who live as close to crabtree and NH as i do to waverly, and they would NEVER walk there because they feel unsafe). Redoing waverly place is a good thing, and a definite step in the right direction. Now we just need to get the town of cary onboard for a few other changes.

Thats the point. Thats why its so important to do things right....there is very little that comes close. We are recovering from the damage of the post war period (1950's on). Cameron Village is sortof close. Pilot Mill/Blount Street will be eventually. If downtown proper gets more amenities it will be. Five points was lacking jobs but had a grocery until about 6 years ago. The current pattern of development...even these pseudo Waverly versions of urbanity....are difficult to sustain...

Just as a side note, Pilot Mill will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER be urban, EVER. Just this week they made 2-hour parking zones on every street in that place, because raleigh charter high school students were parking there and they didnt want them to. Why? so that "their" neighborhood wouldn't be crowded, and so they could use their streets to park their third and fourth cars that they cant fit in their garages. NOT urbanity. Just snooty snobs expecting suburban living downtown in the name of being able to drive to glenwood south in less time.

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