NC: No Longer a Southern State?

[triadcat]

Pillsbury, as we have stated the Triad and western NC is more much southern than the Triangle and northeast North Carolina, in large part because of geography and demography. Still, as someone who has spent time in both Augusta and the Triad, I disagree that the Triad is as southern as Augusta. Yeah, the Triad is southern, but is relatively less so than any place in Georgia, except Atlanta.

[davidals]

I think maybe you mean just culturally........

The Triad and Western NC is actually the coldest part of the state and our weather/climate is a little more like southside VA; while the Triangle is warmer and looks more southern with more longleaf/long needle pines and less decidous trees and slightly sandier soil than the Triad.

...

But I will agree that the Triad is more culturally southern than the Triangle and is more laid back and strangly has a *slightly* more Appalachian look and feel than the Triangle. It's great.

[ChiefJoJo]

Getting sweet tea in Richmond is not a problem

[Pillsbury]

I hope you guys realize that I'm having to think harder on this thread than I have on just about all the other threads--even the political ones. I don't have any answers for you. I know I'm certainly not Southern. I'll write more tonight while sipping my Mint Julep, wearing polo, khakis, and birks with no socks (cause it's 80 here today).

[MR-2]

I think maybe you mean just culturally........

The Triad and Western NC is actually the coldest part of the state and our weather/climate is a little more like southside VA; while the Triangle is warmer and looks more southern with more longleaf/long needle pines and less decidous trees and slightly sandier soil than the Triad.

[redjeep77]

FWIW, NC was the last state to succeed... once we were surrounded on all sides.

[poonther]

I had a friend who used to live there and it felt very urban and not so southern to me, although a lot of our time was spent in DT Richmond where he lived.

[nowensone]

Actually FYI, Tenn was the last state to succeed (NC was second to last). In essence they both left at the same time, but nc left before tenn.

[Pillsbury]

^ That's a good point. We're all very lucky.

I don't see how when a state chose to leave the Union is indicative of its Southerness. Those states still left. They may not have had the fire-eaters that South Carolina had, but those states were still Southern, and when given a choice, they left.

I don't think it was an easy choice anywhere among Southerners, except for in South Carolina, which along with Virginia, were the most prosperous areas of the South. It has been suggested that the Georgia vote was rigged and even then it barely passed. There were Union sympathies even in Augusta. These issues aren't as uniform as they seem. Still looking for answers........

[nowensone]

^ You are right, the secession dates are irrelevant, and the average citizen back in those times, in any southern state, were likely against the idea. I guess politics and the corruption of the powerful is the same in any age.

The interesting thing of this thread is that some who live in southern states do not like the branding of "Southern", and I suppose that is understandable given that there are still negative associations with the term. Whether it is in one's head or not is the real point of debate. Obviously there is no negative aspect to sweat tea, other than the calories...

[krazeeboi]

I've been reading and commenting on this interesting thread and ChiefJoJo you hit on a point I've been mulling over.

Are we confusing urban w/non-southern? A lot of your examples of why NC may or may not be considered southern is nothing more than NC turning from rural to urban. My questions would be: when a place becomes urban, does it become non-southern? Shouldn't we be able to have an urban south represented by several large and diverse major metro areas? Is the real difference just the urban south vs. the rural south?

No answers here, only questions.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

By northeast North Carolina, I specially mean the Outerbanks, perhaps a couple of exurban Norfolk counties. I do not mean Williamston or Kinston for goodness sake.

[ChiefJoJo]

I merely mentioned the succession of NC from the Union for a laugh.

Back to the original topic... NC is most certainly a southern state, and I can't see how there's a good argument to dispute than.

[nowensone]

^ Culturally, maybe, any cultural argument is dependent upon the perspective of the arguer, and location within NC, so you can be right and so can someone else saying the opposite.

Geographically, "Mid Atlantic" is more accurate and meaningful than "southern", there are maps posted in this thread, take a look. Atlantic as in ocean, Mid as in middle of the east coast. "Southern" is as vague as one can get. Calling, for example, both Louisiana and NC southern results in about a 1500 mile discrepancy.

[krazeeboi]

^ Culturally, maybe, any cultural argument is dependent upon the perspective of the arguer, and location within NC, so you can be right and so can someone else saying the opposite.

Geographically, "Mid Atlantic" is more accurate and meaningful than "southern", there are maps posted in this thread, take a look. Atlantic as in ocean, Mid as in middle of the east coast. "Southern" is as vague as one can get. Calling, for example, both Louisiana and NC southern results in about a 1500 mile discrepancy.

[nowensone]

People say "Southern" when they want to convey a certain specific region in terms of culture. When they mean geographic, you hear "Southeast", as the term has more precision to it. In that regard, Mid-Atlantic has better precision (though Southeast is fine), based upon splitting the east coast into 3 equal thirds of North, Mid, and South. NC is in the middle 3rd. I realize most in this thread are viewing these terms more in terms of culture than geography, in which case, fine, say it is southern, but in terms of geography, that bothers me. I should mention I am just a little OC, so that could be it...

[poonther]

I agree, when most people speak of The South they are referring to the cultural south, mainly the old confederacy.

I understand what you mean nowensone about it geographically being wrong and the distances being great, but the same could apply to many regions in the USA including:

The Midwest: often times anything from Ohio to the Dakotas, Nebraska, Iowa and Kansas. Sometimes even Pittsburgh is included in this

The West: Anything from Colorado to California to Washington IMHO way too diverse to group together.

The Rocky Mountain States anything from Idaho to New Mexico again too diverse to group together.

So I don't see that problem as being unique to the south.

nowensone if you are a little OC w/geography (which I can be at times) please explain The University of South Florida being in TAMPA???? When I lived in South FL I had to drive 4 to 5 hours NORTH to get to USF.

Whoever came up w/that one should have been shot at gun point.

[nowensone]

^ Oh, don't worry, I've been on threads from the other regions you mention beating dead horses there too...

As far as USF, don't get me started, lets tackle the NFL divisions and their teams (based on directions) and watch my head explode.

[krazeeboi]

People say "Southern" when they want to convey a certain specific region in terms of culture. When they mean geographic, you hear "Southeast", as the term has more precision to it. In that regard, Mid-Atlantic has better precision (though Southeast is fine), based upon splitting the east coast into 3 equal thirds of North, Mid, and South. NC is in the middle 3rd. I realize most in this thread are viewing these terms more in terms of culture than geography, in which case, fine, say it is southern, but in terms of geography, that bothers me. I should mention I am just a little OC, so that could be it...

[nowensone]

You have a point, but obviously some here do believe that NC's mid-Atlantic designation is also cultural to a certain degree as well, although I don't think so simply due to the layout, urbanity, history, and overall feel of the major cities in the typical mid-Atlantic states (e.g., Richmond, DC, Baltimore) contrasted with those of NC.

[triadcat]

That divide goes right through the Triangle, which seems to sit on the Fall Line: 100' descent from Chapel Hill (farily rugged on the east side of Chapel Hill) to Durham, and another 100' from Durham to Raleigh, which has a sandhills feel completely absent from the west side of the Triangle. Chapel Hill and Orange County's geography is more like Greensboro than Raleigh; if you want a great glimpse of relatively unspoiled northern piedmont landscapes, drive (about 40 miles) NC SR 1005 from Greensboro to Carrboro - it's Alamance Church Rd in Guilford, Greensboro-Chapel Hill Rd in Alamance and Old Greensboro Hwy in Orange - and very scenic from SE Guilford to just out of Carrboro.

The Triad gets a little more snow - Chapel Hill and Greensboro are only 45 miles and about 300' in elevation apart, but the wintertime rain/snow line always seems to run right through Alamance.

[triadcat]

Seems such a silly pissing match, but Tennessee seceded on May 6, 1861, NC was the last on May 20. The real point is, both states were against secession, but were coerced after Fort Sumter has taken in April and Virginia caved and joined the original 7 seceding lower south states. Google for the info, here is a random link http://www.civilwarhome.com/southernseccession.htm

[DCMetroRaleigh]

THe decline in southern identity has not only occurred amongst people not born in NC but also amongst natives, according to multiple studies and surveys on the topic. So the Mid-Atlantization of North Carolina is not just a geographic phenomena in the minds of many.

[krazeeboi]

Are any of those studies readily available online? I'd like to check them out if possible.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Krazee, I will search for them. I did find a USA Today article that generally referenced the decline in southern identity:

The AP-Ipsos poll conducted this past month found 63 percent of people living in the region identified themselves as Southerners. That mirrors a trend from a University of North Carolina analysis of polling data that found a decline of 7 percentage points on the same Southern identity question between 1991 to 2001, to 70 percent

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1342567&page=1

A decade of research distilled by Vanderbilt University suggests the number of proud Southerners is declining, with some rejecting the label of "Southerner" while the idea of what a Southerner might be is being diluted by newcomers.

The South -- the home of good ol' boys and pickup trucks, the stereotypical images recently mentioned by Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean; of yellow dogs with grease spots on their backs; of front porch swings -- may still be around, but Southern pride is disappearing, the study suggests.

Between 1991 and 2001, those living in the South who think of themselves as Southern declined 7.4 percent, from about 78 percent to 70 percent, according to Vanderbilt sociologist Larry Griffin.

The Vanderbilt study found the Southern identity waning most in Virginia at 11.1 percent, North Carolina at 10 percent and Georgia's 9.9 percent. The states with the strongest identity were Arkansas, Tennessee, Alabama, Kentucky and Louisiana.

In the study, males tended to have a higher denial rate (9.2 percent) than females (6.2 percent). Whites backed away marginally more (5 percent) than blacks (4 percent) but not as much as Asians and Native Americans (9 percent) or Hispanics (19 percent).

People in small towns and rural areas felt less Southern (8 percent) than those in cities and suburban areas (6 percent). "I'm not sure why," said Dr. Harry Watson, director for the UNC Center that did the polls. "We did find that the strongest Southern identity was for those who had moved away or moved away and moved back."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1032671/posts

Interesting that southern identity is declining most in NC and VA.