NC: No Longer a Southern State?

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Working with researchers at the University of North Carolina's Center for the Study of the American South, Griffin analyzed data from 19 polls conducted from 1991-2001. The polls surveyed 17,000 residents in all of the Southern states, including Texas, and found that the number of people living in the Land of Cotton who identified themselves as "Southerners" fell 7.4 percentage points, from approximately 78 percent to 70 percent.

Griffin speculates that as with the rest of the nation, the South's old esprit de corps is crumbling under the profound influences of urbanization and immigration. In September 2003, SouthNow, the journal of UNC's Program on Southern Politics, Media and Public Life, underscored the rise of urbanization: "In 1980 Census, the South had only 10 metropolitan areas of one million people or more. Now, the region has 22. Nearly three out of four Southerners live in metro areas."

The researchers were surprised at some of the findings. They were surprised, for instance, that the disassociation with Southern identity spanned all age groups, ethnicities and races.

The trend that remained the most constant was not surprising: Republicans, political conservatives and the wealthy continue to describe themselves as proud "Southerners." Republicans, for example, still see themselves as "Southern" at 74 percent, political conservatives at 78 percent and the wealthy at 69 percent.

"Though the South has changed (since 1991-2001), those three groups still see themselves as in the South or of the South," Griffin said. "For persons of color, the poor, for political liberals or Democrats, it may be an image they reject."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1071234/posts

[redjeep77]

"Cheer boys cheer now

raise the joyous shout

for arkansas and north carolina

now have both gone out"

Then later on in the song...

"And give another rising cheer

for Tenessee begivin

for the single star of the Bonnie Blue has

has grown to be 11"

-The Bonnie Blue Flag (the national song of the CSA)

Maybe the "official" dates of sucession are one thing, but this is the way I have always learned the history. Interesting nonetheless

[nowensone]

^ Yeah, there are even contradictions out there in places that represent themselves as factual, our beloved Wikipedia says that NC contributed the most soldiers to the Confederate cause, though I think that "honor" is really Tennessee's. By the way, you actually learned that song or were taught it? Fascinating, I hadn't heard it, though I do have two ancestors named Stonewall Jackson Corn and Robert E. Lee Hannon, LOL.

Great info, DCMetroRaleigh, urbanization and immigration are clearly the root causes.

[Pillsbury]

This is very true. NC and TN were against secession. In NC the whole state, except for Charlotte, Wilmington, etc. did not want to secede....in particular the Triad and western NC. Tennessee was more pro-Union than NC though. Even though NC was the last to leave, TN provided the most Union troops......especially east TN.

I will try to find info on it

This link shows that NC was against secession.....especially the Triad. But it also shows that Charlotte, Wilmington, and some eastern NC counties were for leaving the Union. Very interesting stuff.

Here: http://members.aol.com/jweaver303/nc/convvote.htm

[sax184]

Hmm...interesting data on "southern-ness."

I think another influence worth contemplating is the simultaneous nationalization and fragmentation of the media. Increasingly small numbers of people watch network tv news, as cable outlets, the internet, and so on have proliferated. When you shift from network to cable news, you generally shift from a station that shows local content to non-local content.

News 14 Carolina is the one station trending the other way. Also, think about recent developments like XM Satellite Radio. About 10 years ago, I took a road trip for work from NC to Kentucky and Indiana several years back. I went through Chattanooga, Cincinatti, Louisville, and Nashville. Once I left the metropolitan areas, it was nothing but "Christ and Country" on the radio.

Today, if I want, I can go buy a XM receiver, plug it into my car's dash, and make the same trip and keep ACC sports on the air even if they're not playing a team from KY, TN, or OH, or I can listen to NPR the whole way if I feel like it. Both the TV and radio examples show how you can now avoid place-based culture when you go someplace new.

If you move to NC from NJ, as long as you buy the right cable tv package, you can keep rooting for the Eagles or the Jets on Sundays instead of the Panthers.

Contrast today's mass media with that of 40 years back, or 80 years back. In one case, you're looking at local radio and television, with limited content from national newsdesks, and before that, local newspapers. Quite a contrast!

[poonther]

IMHO it still sounds like most examples of NC is that it is becoming more urban and suburban. Again I ask, if a place becomes more urban, why does it have to leave the south? Can't we have a New South that is urban and has folks from all over the country?

Second, if you are going to put NC in the Mid-Atlantic states, based on geography and culture, what other states are you grouping in that category also?

[Dale]

I'd say that NC is quintessentially Southern. Nothing to be embarrased about.

[monsoon]

....

Second, if you are going to put NC in the Mid-Atlantic states, based on geography and culture, what other states are you grouping in that category also?

[urbanvb]

Interesting paragraph from Wikipedia.

Southern expansion

Historically Maryland and Delaware were considered part of the Southern United States due to their Slave state status and the Census Bureau still places them in that region. However, due to their higher levels of urbanization and industrialization they are now usually considered part of the Mid-Atlantic. Southern influence has waned considerably in Delaware and the metropolitan areas of Maryland, but remains present around the Eastern Shore and Southern Maryland.

The same could be said for Virginia and West Virginia which are often placed in this region as due to their geographic position. The EPA and USGS both include those states in their respective Mid-Atlantic administrative regions.

[davidals]

IMHO it still sounds like most examples of NC is that it is becoming more urban and suburban. Again I ask, if a place becomes more urban, why does it have to leave the south? Can't we have a New South that is urban and has folks from all over the country?

[DCMetroRaleigh]

I think it is interesting that native North Carolinians divide on southern identity based upon political affiliation. Republicans are much more likely to view themselves as southern, than Democrats and liberal North Carolinians. THere are similar chasms in southern identity based upon race, religion, and income.

[triadcat]

This is good information, but again, I have to ask what bearing it has on the Southerness of states today? If one uses a state's entry into the Confederacy as proof of its Southerness (or in this case, lack thereof) then how do you approach Tennessee. The last state to enter the Confederacy and contributed among the highest number of troops to the Union forces, yet according to USA Today cited above, Tennessee still ranks high in the number of its citizens who identify with the South--higher than Georgia apparently, which was a tenth of a percentage point behind NC in its loss of Southern identity, according to the Free Republic article.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

On time for our raging debate, is a Reuters article about how Northern Virginia's growing political influence on VA elections is exposing the growing chasm between the social and political leanings of NOVA versus the rest of the state:

"Manners aside, Northern Virginia's political influence will only increase as the booming high-tech economy continues to attract highly educated, Democratic-voting residents from across the country, said University of Virginia politics professor Larry Sabato.

"The northern part of the state is a Middle Atlantic state, the southern part of the state still belongs to the South," Sabato said. "Virginia ... is only going to become more Middle Atlantic."

http://www.rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php...xml%26src%3Drss

[monsoon]

I think it is interesting that native North Carolinians divide on southern identity based upon political affiliation. ....

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Actually the above cited studies did find that southern identity was associated with political orientation. ANd while NC votes red for president, the increasingly Mid-Atlantic Triangle votes blue for president as a whole. Likewise, Charlotte and Asheville. Furthermore, Triangle social conservatives like Charles Capps are gradually losing their seats in the NC legislature, a mirror of the fate of socially conservative politicians are experiencing in Northern Virginia. The Triangle is indeed not only becoming bluer, but are gradually flexing their muscle on state politics. IF the Triangle's robust growth continues, it may be the decider of state-wide and even presidential elections.

[Dale]

I don't think it can be defined that much in terms of the political parties. The reason being that despite being called a red state, the NC Governer is a democrat and the NC Legislature is controlled by the Democratic party.

My guess is that Elizabeth Dole is going to go down in flames in 2008.

[krazeeboi]

The Vanderbilt study found the Southern identity waning most in Virginia at 11.1 percent, North Carolina at 10 percent and Georgia's 9.9 percent. The states with the strongest identity were Arkansas, Tennessee, Alabama, Kentucky and Louisiana.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Like so many things, the definition of South and Mid-Atlantic is subjective, which leads to spirited, sometimes raucous debates. How much of what is Southern or Mid-Atlantic is geography; how much is cultural; how much is political orienation; how much is urban/suburban; how much is self-identification of residents; how much is determined by history?

As for the urban/suburban portion of the equation, I don't think of it as the major factor. After all, Vermont and Maine are very rural, yet very northern. Rural PA is considered the "Alabama of the North," yet still part of the North. TO be honest, urban Atlanta has more in common with New York City than rural Pennsylvania. Both urban NYC and ATL are blue areas that are pro-gay, pro-choice, cosmopolitan. Rural PA votes the same way as Alabama, has a similar orientation to AL, and thinks the same on the hot button social issues. So, I guess the whole red-state/blue-state thing is actually too overbroad, since each red state has blue areas and every blue state has red areas. After all, even deep red Utah has blue Salt Lake City which has a liberal mayor who supports gay rights. IN contrast, upstate New York votes for conservatives.

My point is that while views on political and cultural issues are indicative of southerness, they are not determinative of the controversy at hand.

[urbanvb]

This just for consideration: Even though the larger urban areas are experiencing growth and are perhaps more liberal, NC as a whole is still pretty conservative. It still has lots of small towns and rural areas that are very conservative. I am actually originally from one of them.

[Dale]

This just for consideration: Even though the larger urban areas are experiencing growth and are perhaps more liberal, NC as a whole is still pretty conservative. It still has lots of small towns and rural areas that are very conservative. I am actually originally from one of them.

[urbanvb]

You say 'conservative' as if it were a bad thing.

[Dale]

Not a bad thing at all and hoping I didn't come across as such. I was just comparing the small and rural areas to the larger and generally more liberal/urban areas.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

NC is a socially conservative state, but not so much economically. There are still some interesting laws on the books. Like, in order to hold public office, you must believe in the Christian god. The state also elected the crazy Helms to the Senate several times. On the economic side, it has a pretty high level of taxation and an expansive government. It's the opposite of how I wish it were (socially liberal, fiscally conservative), but what am I going to do.

I don't know how we compare with our neighbors to the south, however.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

"Pretty conservative" is relative. North Carolina may be right of center for the entire nation, but it has a long history of being progressive for the South. Whether you are talking about civil rights, women's rights, electing blacks to office, or even gay rights, North Carolina is along the most liberal of all southern states. For example, North Carolina, Maryland, and West Virginia are the southern states without an anti-gay marriage clause in their state constitutions. Florida is working on it and is the only state to ban gay people from adopting. NC is one of the few southern states to move toward restricting abortion. In fact, Survey USA showed that opposition to abortion in NC was about at the same level as PA :

http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2005/50Sta...byProChoice.htm

Legendary political scientist V.O Key's thesis about North Carolina in his legendary 1949 book "Southern Politics," argued the state was a "progressive plutocracy" -- tolerant on social issues like race relations, and conservative and subservient to business interests when it came to economics.

Earlier this year, the News and Observer put it like this:

Most North Carolinians go to church and believe in the Bible, polls show. But North Carolina has always been a more nuanced state on social issues than many imagine. Take abortion.

In 1968, North Carolina became the second state to legalize abortions. Until the mid-'90s, North Carolina was the only state in the South -- and one of just 13 in the country -- to fund abortions for poor women.

Even Helms has acknowledged that his strong anti-abortion stance was the position that he had the most difficulty explaining to his constituents.

North Carolina has some history of defying conventional wisdom on social issues.

During the great evolution controversy in the 1920s, there was a mass movement in churches to outlaw the teaching of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution in public schools. In 1924, North Carolina Gov. Cameron Morrison banned a biology textbook that discussed evolution from public high schools.

Evolution opponents were victorious in Mississippi, Arkansas and Tennessee, site of the famous Scopes trial. But anti-evolution bills died in the North Carolina legislature after strong lobbying by university officials, newspapers and others.

One of the leading opponents was state Rep. Sam Ervin Jr., a future U.S. senator and a conservative Democrat who delivered in 1925 one of the more memorable speeches in legislative history. Ervin used both humor and reason to undercut the anti-evolution bill, calling it "an attempt to limit freedom of speech."

[poonther]

Those that don't identify in those studies, don't identify w/the OLD definition of what the south is/was. NC is changing as is almost all the south is...some faster than others...but it's all changing even the deepest parts of the South (i.e. Korean influence in Montgomery,AL due to the new Hyundai plant.)

So the point I'm asking is: Is NC changing and leaving the South or is what we've used as the definition of the South an outdated definition and that is what we need to change? Do we need a new definition for what the South is to included a more urbanized/suburbianized South where people from all parts of the country live OR by that example has the South just disappeared????

Now if we are going to go by geography and take cultural and historical references out of the equation, for the Atlantic Coast we have to use latitude. The Atlantic Coast in the USA extends roughly from 25 degrees to 45 degrees. If you only do SE and NE then anything below 35 (which is CLT and most the NC/SC border) is SE and anything above is NE thus NC is a NE state. If you divide it into 3 parts South would be approx. 25 to 31 (Key West to almost Savannah), Mid 31 to 38(Savannah to Philly) and North(Philly to Eastport Maine) 38 to 45. You can add a few degrees if you want to take it all the way to Fort Kent,ME but for this study I used coastal latitudes only. By this definition, both SC and NC are part of the Mid-Atlantic.

*I am just generalizing here, I did this all in my head w/out the use of a map. You might find small errors in my calculations.

P.S. The laptop I'm using does not have spell check...please excuse whatever typos this bad speller can't identify.