Ann Arbor to Detroit Transit Study

[Michi]

That's interesting information.

The one thing that I keep thinking (and I'm no expert of mass transit), is that of Atlanta and how it was able to build a heavy rail system in a geographic area the size of Detroit, but merely 1/2 as densely populated. Maybe when it was built, the area had high projections of growth, whereas Detroit does not, but still after all these years, most corridors in Detroit would have competitive population densities. This goes for most other cities as well. The Woodward corridor, I would presume offers the greatest density.

[GRDadof3]

This finding was quite shocking in the study:

Commuter Rapid Transit 1 (CRT 1), as the first alternative is called, would utilize exiting rail lines, follow Norfolk Southern Michigan

[monsoon]

That's interesting information.

The one thing that I keep thinking (and I'm no expert of mass transit), is that of Atlanta and how it was able to build a heavy rail system in a geographic area the size of Detroit, but merely 1/2 as densely populated. Maybe when it was built, the area had high projections of growth, whereas Detroit does not, but still after all these years, most corridors in Detroit would have competitive population densities. This goes for most other cities as well. The Woodward corridor, I would presume offers the greatest density.

[RustTown]

SEMCOG has been working against any kind of rail (commuter or otherwise) since their inception. This is not a surprise. It's just sad that we have them as the preeminent group leading (or should I say not leading) comprehensive transit reform in Metro Detroit.

The metro needs to give DARTA teeth, and kick SEMCOG down a few notches. SEMCOG's not even a transit authority, rather a loose (VERY loose) regional council that's more concerned about sprawling Detroit into oblivion than seeking comprehensive transit reform.

[Michi]

Thanks for the info on MARTA, metrom. Is the quarter of a million people including all of MARTA or just the heavy rail lines?

SEMCOG has been working against any kind of rail (commuter or otherwise) since their inception. This is not a surprise. It's just sad that we have them as the preeminent group leading (or should I say not leading) comprehensive transit reform in Metro Detroit.

The metro needs to give DARTA teeth, and kick SEMCOG down a few notches. SEMCOG's not even a transit authority, rather a loose (VERY loose) regional council that's more concerned about sprawling Detroit into oblivion than seeking comprehensive transit reform.

[hudkina]

But being a gas means we're moving the fastest! We're a solid because we're frozen in a sprawlcentric mentallity.

[RustTown]

I'm just having a terribly hard time believing that that demand is not there for SOME type of rail to work in this region. Whenever anyone seems to even mention it there is always some overriding excuse why it can't work instead of making it work. SEMCOG, as the current, preeminent authority on region-wide transit (which is shouldn't be forced to shoulder in the first place) needs to be more a cheerleader of effective, region-wide transit. They almost seem like they don't want to show a bias either way (i.e. more roads or rail), when it's my opinion they should be biased knowing the importance of effective, region-wide mass transit. Transit is the CRUX of the problems in trying to attain regionalism, and it needs to be treated as priority number one. Everything else is secondary. I'm frustrated that the region has only been able to accomplish lip service and exchange slight pleasentries when it comes to regionalism.

Forget regionalism for just a moment, though. Apart fom regionalism, why in the world is there not a rail connection from at least downtown to Detroit Metro, one of the busiest airports in this country and this world? Why is there not anything going to and from anywhere? Is this really all chalked up to lack of political will, or is my frustration not as misguided as some might want to make it? Is there seriously not two matching transit advocates in this region from city to suburb that we could connect? All of this development in downtown and Royal Oak and...will have all been mostly in vain if there is nothing but automobiles to connect them, and I can't believe that we are the only ones who realize that.

[tracer1138]

I'm just having a terribly hard time believing that that demand is not there for SOME type of rail to work in this region. Whenever anyone seems to even mention it there is always some overriding excuse why it can't work instead of making it work. SEMCOG, as the current, preeminent authority on region-wide transit (which is shouldn't be forced to shoulder in the first place) needs to be more a cheerleader of effective, region-wide transit. They almost seem like they don't want to show a bias either way (i.e. more roads or rail), when it's my opinion they should be biased knowing the importance of effective, region-wide mass transit. Transit is the CRUX of the problems in trying to attain regionalism, and it needs to be treated as priority number one. Everything else is secondary. I'm frustrated that the region has only been able to accomplish lip service and exchange slight pleasentries when it comes to regionalism.

[Jasoncw]

I think there is a group of businesses that want to put light rail going down Woodward. I don't know if that's still being worked on or not though.

There's also those bagillion people mover expansion proposals, the high-speed-monorail-pod-car-system, and a ton of other things (one seems to come up once a month).

Now, I think there used to be a short trolley line going down Washington to Hart Plaza. I remember hearing about it a few times, and you can see the tracks from google maps. Was this sucsessful at all? When did it stop?

[monsoon]

Thanks for the info on MARTA, metrom. Is the quarter of a million people including all of MARTA or just the heavy rail lines?....

[GRDadof3]

monsoon, in case you check in on this again. What do you think about Atlanta's plans for a rail "ring" around the city, to serve suburb to suburb ridership?

Detroit is unique in that the greatest majority of commuting is suburb-to-suburb now, as opposed to suburb-to-downtown, which is why I thought the AA to Detroit corridor to be an unwise choice personally. What about mass transit following 696 and 275, with park and ride stations and light rail/BRT feeders to heavy employment areas?

I think before any kind of system can be built in Detroit, a truly effective regional spirit of cooperation is needed. Good mass transit systems cross municipal and philosophical boundaries. They may go from a heavy "blue area" to a heavy "red area" (for lack of a better analogy) and back again. Ongoing funding, support and expansion (usually in the form of taxes) requires buy-in from the populace in all of these different areas.

[resourcefulidiot]

as far as I know, it was not replaced after they completed the new streetscape on Washington pre Super Bowl. The cars ahve been redone as the tiger train cars

there was also a mentioning of using them in the new rivertown distrcit (in some article) when all the condo developments are completed

and there was that 200mil PM expansion to new center talked about a month ago or so and this one was unique because it proposed private funding (probably with tax credits or some public help)...I believe its supported by Wayne, DMC, and other major midtown employers so it sounds promosing, but idk if I like the idea of a large loop (albiet two-way loop) and those large PM pillars/tracks dotting the landscape of Cass/John R/Woodward or wherever

[RustTown]

No system in Detroit will be worthwhile or meaningful without a line to and from downtown/midtown/new center. Suburb-to-suburb commutes are the dominate lines, at the moment, but no suburb's going to match up with another to put a line between the two as the will, want, and philosophy isn't there in places like Troy, a major, major office center.

[statedude3]

In the suburbs- where a huge majority of people own cars and have been dependent on cars alone for transit for many years, I dont see how people would use park/ride for a train when they can more easily take their own car, regardless of the $$ being saved.

[Michi]

Forget regionalism for just a moment, though. Apart fom regionalism, why in the world is there not a rail connection from at least downtown to Detroit Metro, one of the busiest airports in this country and this world? Why is there not anything going to and from anywhere? Is this really all chalked up to lack of political will, or is my frustration not as misguided as some might want to make it? Is there seriously not two matching transit advocates in this region from city to suburb that we could connect? All of this development in downtown and Royal Oak and...will have all been mostly in vain if there is nothing but automobiles to connect them, and I can't believe that we are the only ones who realize that.

[Michi]

There's also those bagillion people mover expansion proposals, the high-speed-monorail-pod-car-system, and a ton of other things (one seems to come up once a month).

Now, I think there used to be a short trolley line going down Washington to Hart Plaza. I remember hearing about it a few times, and you can see the tracks from google maps. Was this sucsessful at all? When did it stop?

[GRDadof3]

In the suburbs- where a huge majority of people own cars and have been dependent on cars alone for transit for many years, I dont see how people would use park/ride for a train when they can more easily take their own car, regardless of the $$ being saved.

[monsoon]

monsoon, in case you check in on this again. What do you think about Atlanta's plans for a rail "ring" around the city, to serve suburb to suburb ridership?.......

[RustTown]

Michi, so let's say my criticism of SEMCOG is misguided (and it appears you pointed that out pretty well and let me down easily), the area does have a regional authority in DARTA. So, what's holding DARTA up? It seems to me, now, that thinking more through this it all comes back to political and racial divisions all over again. It's so frustrating, because its transportation that can begin to heal those very touchy rifts. It's a chicken-and-egg, but I think it's imperitive that the Metro puts transit first. I can even explain how strongly I believe in the total Freedom of Movement ideology as the most effective way to heal social/racial rifts. It may not be a cure-all, but it's still a necessity before anything else can happen. I can't stress enough how strongly I see the freedom of movement as a starting point for a very bitter metro.

[Michi]

You can have whatever opinions of SEMCOG that you wish. It's not like you aren't educated on them, so however you feel, is your own prerogative.

I don't know what's up with DARTA. They may be formed, but it's as if they are nonexistant. Obviously, it is still "illegal" for there to be only one transportation authority in Metro Detroit. Why is DDOT and SMART still separate of one another when at the end of the day, we want regional transit, not fragmented transit?

You mention race, class and everything else in between the lines that has plagued SE MI for so many years. I think it still exists, but I think it is also being talked about. So if anything positive is coming out of a bunch of hot air, it is the evaluation of the importance of transit for SE MI.

I know, that's not good enough. There's no proaction and there needs to be. I don't know the policies and rights and laws that allow DARTA to do or not to do whatever it is it needs to do to be effective. But when it comes to pushes for mass transit, they are nonexistant and the fluff of SEMCOG is sent to bear the brunt of what DARTA is for in the first place.

[resourcefulidiot]

page 22 of the results indicate that funding potential may increase depending on congressional support. Do you think that a new democratic congress may be more inclining to support sustainable development and put things like transit as a domestic priority, or at least something they're willing to support? One of the ranking democratic senators is from michigan

just food for thought, maybe congressional support could make more expansive CRT service viable

[RustTown]

You can have whatever opinions of SEMCOG that you wish. It's not like you aren't educated on them, so however you feel, is your own prerogative.

I don't know what's up with DARTA. They may be formed, but it's as if they are nonexistant. Obviously, it is still "illegal" for there to be only one transportation authority in Metro Detroit. Why is DDOT and SMART still separate of one another when at the end of the day, we want regional transit, not fragmented transit?

You mention race, class and everything else in between the lines that has plagued SE MI for so many years. I think it still exists, but I think it is also being talked about. So if anything positive is coming out of a bunch of hot air, it is the evaluation of the importance of transit for SE MI.

I know, that's not good enough. There's no proaction and there needs to be. I don't know the policies and rights and laws that allow DARTA to do or not to do whatever it is it needs to do to be effective. But when it comes to pushes for mass transit, they are nonexistant and the fluff of SEMCOG is sent to bear the brunt of what DARTA is for in the first place.

[monsoon]

page 22 of the results indicate that funding potential may increase depending on congressional support. ......

[Michi]

The SEMCOG Regional Update may give further insight into the organization's methods and intentions:

http://semcog.org/News/RegionalUpdate/11_13_06.htm

[wood2coal]

If its really all just about money, the cheapest line to bring to service would be the old Grand Trunk western Detroit to Pontiac rail that used to be an active passenger line but closed in 1983. This would be the best place to start since it connects to the two majior night life destinations, since initially when a new line opens people use it for pleasure at first, it takes a few years before they start using it for commuting. A small addition can be made to connect it with the downtown people mover.

But Detroit needs something.

I think the problem all these years has simply been the fact that the suburbs can't accept the fact that they are part of Detroit. Each community is trying to run its own venture instead of working together, look how long it took to just get SMART running, and even still some communities like Livonia are holding back on that. The only service where we have all municipalities working together is Water. Thats why Detroit Water and Sewer has one of the most modern and uptodate systems in the Country. If only we could do that with transportation also.