Minimum Wage

[Captain Worley]

Since it was deleted from another thread...

I think that raising the minimum wage would harm the small busines owner; here's why:

Say run a small business, and besides yourself, you hire two people to work a total of 72 hours per week between them. (Shop is open 12 hours, six days a week) For a 50 week year, that is a total of 3600 hours per year. After taxes, the profit, which is your salary as the business owner, is 30,000 dollars.

Now, if they raise the minimum wage two dollars, as they are taklking about doing, your salary falls by 7200 dollars, leaving you 22800.

I don't know about y'all, but I'd hate for my salary to drop about 25%!

To retain the same profit, you'd have to drop the number of hours for your employees.

Furthermore, minimum wage jobs are not supposed to be living wages; they are the kinds of jobs where you learn valuable skills (showing up consistently and on time) for moving up the job ladder.

[MadVlad]

Since it was deleted from another thread...

I think that raising the minimum wage would harm the small busines owner; here's why:

Say run a small business, and besides yourself, you hire two people to work a total of 72 hours per week between them. (Shop is open 12 hours, six days a week) For a 50 week year, that is a total of 3600 hours per year. After taxes, the profit, which is your salary as the business owner, is 30,000 dollars.

Now, if they raise the minimum wage two dollars, as they are taklking about doing, your salary falls by 7200 dollars, leaving you 22800.

I don't know about y'all, but I'd hate for my salary to drop about 25%!

To retain the same profit, you'd have to drop the number of hours for your employees.

Furthermore, minimum wage jobs are not supposed to be living wages; they are the kinds of jobs where you learn valuable skills (showing up consistently and on time) for moving up the job ladder.

[Captain Worley]

You joke, but this is the reality for many small businesses.

[Snowguy716]

There are many places in this country where you can't move up the job ladder because there aren't higher paying jobs available to you.

What do you do in a situation where you're stuck in poverty living in a bad neighborhood and you're working 2 $7/hour jobs just to get by and put food on the table for your kids...

And you can't get out of the neighborhood because you can't afford to save any money, you have bad/no credit, and your wages aren't rising enough to keep up with inflation.

Sadly, THIS is the reality for millions of Americans. You can say "Well, the market will take care of them."

The market doesn't account for things like variable crime rates, weather, and other such things that can drive local wages down. It also doesn't account for the poverty and 'ghetto' you leave behind when all those people that can afford to move, do.

What do we do here? Get rid of the minimum wage?

Most of the time, free-marketers seem to support the free-market just for its own sake and no other logical, good reason.

[Captain Worley]

First of all, you didn't address the problem of the small business owner.

Second, very few people are truly 'stuck.' Poor decisons lead to most people earning a minimum wage existence. I taught at a tech school were almost all of my students were paying their way through working at minimum wage jobs, but they were preparing themselves for a better future through education.

But I digress. The point is, the raising of the minimum wage will hurt, if not destroy many small business, as my example shows.

What is your solution for the business owner?

[Charlotte_native]

But I digress. The point is, the raising of the minimum wage will hurt, if not destroy many small business, as my example shows.

What is your solution for the business owner?

[runawayjim]

one of the reason illegal immigrants are hired to do certain jobs off the books is because of minimum wage. the immigrants are willing to work for less because they're used to working for even less than that. it gives them money that they wouldn't otherwise have by working in their own country.

from an economical standpoint, any government interaction with the market is bad, including minimum wage.

captain worley is correct in saying that many small businesses will fail if minimum wage is increased. it might also put some people out of jobs because their places of employment will no longer be able to afford to pay them. this is not extreme thinking, this is the reality of owning a small business and having the government tell you what you have to pay someone. if people are willing to work for less, why shouldn't they be able to?

[Captain Worley]

Charlotte, I'm not talking big businesses.There are many small businesses that pay high school, college, and part time workers minimum wage. You may think clearing 30K shows the business is shaky, and I won't argue that, but what I outlined is reality for a good number of businesses.

I was surprised when I found out that something like 50% of businesses in the US employee 5 people or less. Think what would happen to the economy if even a quarter of those failed.

I won't argue the point that there are some businesses that could pay more because there are. I conceded that point.

I'm talking about the small guys. What are they going to do?

Runaway, I'm glad I'm not alone on this issue. Thanks.

[runawayjim]

Charlotte, I'm not talking big businesses.There are many small businesses that pay high school, college, and part time workers minimum wage. You may think clearing 30K shows the business is shaky, and I won't argue that, but what I outlined is reality for a good number of businesses.

I was surprised when I found out that something like 50% of businesses in the US employee 5 people or less. Think what would happen to the economy if even a quarter of those failed.

I won't argue the point that there are some businesses that could pay more because there are. I conceded that point.

I'm talking about the small guys. What are they going to do?

Runaway, I'm glad I'm not alone on this issue. Thanks.

[Snowguy716]

Charlotte, I'm not talking big businesses.There are many small businesses that pay high school, college, and part time workers minimum wage. You may think clearing 30K shows the business is shaky, and I won't argue that, but what I outlined is reality for a good number of businesses.

I was surprised when I found out that something like 50% of businesses in the US employee 5 people or less. Think what would happen to the economy if even a quarter of those failed.

I won't argue the point that there are some businesses that could pay more because there are. I conceded that point.

I'm talking about the small guys. What are they going to do?

Runaway, I'm glad I'm not alone on this issue. Thanks.

[Charlotte_native]

honestly, there should be something based loosely on how many hours you work... high school kids looking for a summer or weekend job can generally live off less than minimum wage because they're not working for a family. college students need a bit more because they're many times paying tuition, books, food, etc. but people who work full time should be paid more than minimum wage because they're generally on their own and need the money to live.

[Captain Worley]

"If it is personal responsibility and your fault that you can't get out.. then I'd say it's your fault if your business brings in $30,000 in profit for you to bring home. If you get a 25% pay cut, then too bad.. you should have CHOSEN a better business to start."

Exactly!!!

And likewise, in 95% of the cases of people making minimum wage and trying to live on it, they are doing so because of bad personal choices!!! Poor education, no job skills, unmarketable degree, etc.

"Then you do what Minnesota did when we raised our minimum wage to $6.15. Businesses that employ less than 25 employees only had their minimum wage raised to $5.25 while companies employing more than that moved up to $6.15"

I could get behind that, if that's what the feds would do.

[Gusterfell]

Since it was deleted from another thread...

I think that raising the minimum wage would harm the small busines owner; here's why:

Say run a small business, and besides yourself, you hire two people to work a total of 72 hours per week between them. (Shop is open 12 hours, six days a week) For a 50 week year, that is a total of 3600 hours per year. After taxes, the profit, which is your salary as the business owner, is 30,000 dollars.

Now, if they raise the minimum wage two dollars, as they are taklking about doing, your salary falls by 7200 dollars, leaving you 22800.

I don't know about y'all, but I'd hate for my salary to drop about 25%!

To retain the same profit, you'd have to drop the number of hours for your employees.

Furthermore, minimum wage jobs are not supposed to be living wages; they are the kinds of jobs where you learn valuable skills (showing up consistently and on time) for moving up the job ladder.

[runawayjim]

You are correct that minimum wage jobs aren't meant to provide a living, but better jobs are being outsourced by the millions. People are forced to work these menial jobs just to survive. The notion that most minimum wage workers are unskilled is a myth.

[Captain Worley]

"Like I said in the other thread, your example is flawed because it ignores the fact that consumer spending rises after a wage increase, driving up business at this shop and others."

Not if his shop and others die because they can't afford a 25% decrease in profit.

[Gusterfell]

Not if his shop and others die because they can't afford a 25% decrease in profit.

[Captain Worley]

"The minimum wage has been increased many times, and it has never led to mass failures."

It has never been raised almost 50% at a shot either.

"If your business model is so flawed that a slight wage increase will sink you, you deserve to fail. "

Can't the same be said of individuals and their personal choices?

[runawayjim]

Can't the same be said of individuals and their personal choices?

[Gusterfell]

Can't the same be said of individuals and their personal choices?

[runawayjim]

Again, that assumes that all minimum wage arners are there by choice. That isn't the case.

[Gusterfell]

Perhaps in some cases, certainly not in all. Besides, that kind of reasoning can also be used in the other direction. Didn't the business owner's choices put him in a position where his business couldn't survive? Why should his company be allowed the safety net of a minimum wage that doesn't even keep up with inflation, while his employees are denied the same?

[runawayjim]

Perhaps in some cases, certainly not in all. Besides, that kind of reasoning can also be used in the other direction. Didn't the business owner's choices put him in a position where his business couldn't survive? Why should his company be allowed the safety net of a minimum wage that doesn't even keep up with inflation, while his employees are denied the same?

[Gusterfell]

If the choice is between working for less than you think you're worth, or not working at all, which would you choose? There is a difference between a high school student earning minimum wage for shopping money, and a single mother who must work several jobs to feed her children. There are millions of people like that single mother who have no other choice.

I'm sorry, but I have more compassion for people than I do for businesses.

[runawayjim]

If the choice is between working for less than you think you're worth, or not working at all, which would you choose? There is a difference between a high school student earning minimum wage for shopping money, and a single mother who must work several jobs to feed her children. There are millions of people like that single mother who have no other choice.

I'm sorry, but I have more compassion for people than I do for businesses.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

1.6 million of the hourly wage earners earn the minimum wage. 53% of this 1.6 million are under the age 23. The primary problem with raising the minimum wage is that it necessarily causes shifts in pay scales for others. This is the primary reason unions support the minimum wage.

An EITC is more effective than concentrating the burden on the few companies the employ people at the minimum wage, for their margins are pretty low as it is.