Will NWA ever be largest metro in state?

[itk]

In talking with a couple of the guys, I think its more of an annoyance that people believe NWA is and will be somehow immune to the problems that LR has now. Also, I hope nobody from NWARPC reads this but those guys are doing a terrible job, terrible. Why is it we have a population of over 400K and only one decent 4 lane corridor? For them to support statements that our growth is going to continue unabated and surpass Central Arkansas is shocking. It seems folks on this thread are aware enough to know that probably won't be the case, but not our regional planners. Maybe I'm not giving them a fair shake I don't know. I just know the people at Metroplan are very competent and educated.

So yeah I don't think it jealously so much as people protraying NWA as a wonderland that makes LRockers and like annoyed.

It went that way for me as well. I remember being so excited about moving to NWA for college and being in Fayetteville. When I moved in it was the third time I'd ever visited. It didn't take for me to start getting annoyed with native NWA people. I don't know how many times I met folks that didn't like Little Rock who had only been to War Memorial, the Capitol, or hadn't even been there. They talked about how dirty it was, how terrible crime was. You'd think Little Rock was the worst place on Earth.

[Mith242]

I just read a couple interesting articles in the Fayetteville Free Weekly. They both have to do with growth in NWA.

First, Fayetteville Downtown Partners are being criticized for trying to turn Fayetteville into a city that cares only for the richest percent of the population, while new downtown business flop and older business close their doors.

Here's that article:

Secondly, there's a scary trend for small businesses closing their doors permanently in a region that is building high dollar condos and subdivisions in every cow pasture to be bought up. All may not be as well in NWA as the media and rumormills make things out to be. It makes one wonder just how well all these new businesses in NWA are really doing and will they still be here when the population is supposed to reach big city levels. Sounds to me that the "boom" in NWA is more hype than reality.

Here's that article:

Courtesy www.freeweekly.com

[hogwash]

Let me clarify something-- NWARPC has nothing to do with NWA having only "one decent 4 lane corridor". They do not build highways. They do not prioritize highway funding in AR. They are a planning agency. Not a highway department.

Second, NWARPC does not have anywhere near the funding as Metroplan does. Metroplan has a much bigger budget. After the 2010 Census, NWARPC will get more federal funding, but right now they are over-worked and under-staffed. I know for a fact they work hard, and they have some very talented planners, who care about doing a good job. I mean it. But they can only do so much, and as you can guess, there is just so much to do right now that they just can't keep up.

As far as your last point, I know that well-- growing up in Fayetteville, that's all my friends and I thought about LR-- that it was a sh_t hole, basically. Now that I live in LR, I have a very different view. (I still like Fayetteville better though!)

[hogwash]

Party House on Township closed because the lady owning the place was really ready to retire...

[masons_dad1]

As far as businesses closing, after reading that article it sounds like most of those were located in questionable locations. Despite all of Springdale's growth I think many people still do most of their shopping and entertainment purchases in other areas of the metro. Another one of those businesses was located in or near the NWA Mall. I imagine the Pinnacle Hills Promenade drawing away business probably caused that. If some of the businesses weren't doing well before then they probably had a big enough drop that they could be having some problems now. Retail could end up growing too fast and will have to be scaled back. But I think there's bound to be some closings especially with so many new retail opening in Rogers. But I think in most cases there won't be too many problems. I think we're seeing that metro being divided between each county with each having it's own retail. I think in many cases most people in each county will shop in their own county. The NWA Mall and other retail location in Washington County can't count on shoppers coming from Benton County anymore.

[Mith242]

Ouch! itk my face is hurting after the smack down you just laid on me. It just seems sometimes they aren't very relevant or have much voice in guiding the regional concept of NWA. I should know better than to openly criticize them like that, especially given what information I am and am not privy to.

It just gets frustrating seeing some of the decisions some of these local communities make and then I ask myself where is the RPC in this? Are they doing anything to advise these communities against this? Why don't they have closer relationships with some of these communities' planning departments? Maybe I should realize things aren't in place and haven't been in place to deal with this growth and sprawl properly. Those with real power either don't have the resources, aren't committed, or aren't educated enough to do anything about it. Maybe its a problem bigger than any one entity can do something about.

There is much the young grasshopper could learn...

[Mith242]

Small locally owned businesses all over NWA are suffering. It won't be long before all retail and restaurants in NWA will be chains just like every other place in America. NWA will eventually lose it's identity other than the Razorbacks. People visiting NWA will leave thinking it's just like any other place in America and that's just plain sad.

[Mith242]

I just read a couple interesting articles in the Fayetteville Free Weekly. They both have to do with growth in NWA.

First, Fayetteville Downtown Partners are being criticized for trying to turn Fayetteville into a city that cares only for the richest percent of the population, while new downtown business flop and older business close their doors.

[masons_dad1]

I read a little more about the concierge program by the Downtown Partners. It's a concierge program to help show people hot spots of Fayetteville. Not the kind where people do errands and such for people. I think Fayetteville Free Weekly jumped the gun and got their info wrong on this one.

[itk]

Ouch! itk my face is hurting after the smack down you just laid on me. It just seems sometimes they aren't very relevant or have much voice in guiding the regional concept of NWA. I should know better than to openly criticize them like that, especially given what information I am and am not privy to.

It just gets frustrating seeing some of the decisions some of these local communities make and then I ask myself where is the RPC in this? Are they doing anything to advise these communities against this? Why don't they have closer relationships with some of these communities' planning departments? Maybe I should realize things aren't in place and haven't been in place to deal with this growth and sprawl properly. Those with real power either don't have the resources, aren't committed, or aren't educated enough to do anything about it. Maybe its a problem bigger than any one entity can do something about.

There is much the young grasshopper could learn...

[Mith242]

I apologize, that certainly wasn't my intent!

I think NWARPC is working more closely with the various cities in recent years.

But you touched on something that is a main reason as to why NWARPC doesn't "appear" to be working more with the cities-- they simply don't have a stick to work with... yet. After the 2010 census, NWA will have an officially designated (by the feds) urbanized area population greater than 200,000. When that officially happens (supposedly around 2013), they will qualify for new federal funds for transportation improvements. That will be their stick. Once they have that, the various cities will become much more receptive to what NWARPC says and does IMO.

[masons_dad1]

After the 2010 census, NWA will have an officially designated (by the feds) urbanized area population greater than 200,000. When that officially happens (supposedly around 2013), they will qualify for new federal funds for transportation improvements.

[itk]

Let's hope that figure doesn't fall short of 200K. I think we're already above 200K but I'm not sure how much of our population is actually "urbanized" and how much is still in "rural" zones of the cities.

[Mith242]

Thought I'd go ahead and throw this in here since it's growth related news. I saw recently that NWA was 18th as the fastest growing metros between 2000-2006. We were 6th during the 90's. Although we dropped I still think it's impressive. Of course as we get bigger that increase has to get bigger as well to keep that percentage up.

[zman9810]

Thought I'd go ahead and throw this in here since it's growth related news. I saw recently that NWA was 18th as the fastest growing metros between 2000-2006. We were 6th during the 90's. Although we dropped I still think it's impressive. Of course as we get bigger that increase has to get bigger as well to keep that percentage up.

[Architect]

Thought I'd go ahead and throw this in here since it's growth related news. I saw recently that NWA was 18th as the fastest growing metros between 2000-2006. We were 6th during the 90's. Although we dropped I still think it's impressive. Of course as we get bigger that increase has to get bigger as well to keep that percentage up.

[astrife]

I am going to say something controversial here, and I hope that people do not jump down my throat for it. I just do not think that this certain fact can be overlooked though. NWA, save for the recent influx of hispanic immigrants, is a WASP's paradise. The African American population in NWA is marginal which I believe changes the growth dynamics for most of NWA considerably compared to LR/NLR. Contemporary estimates set African American median income at roughly 65% of that of "white" people. Regardless of what causes this disparity it invariably results in less education and higher crime rates among this population. This then results in problems in the public school systems and less safe cities (I go to Hendrix, and my mom in Fayetteville still doesn't want me going to LR by myself because she thinks I'll get shot or something).

NWA, I think will be plagued with "growth" problems just like any other city transitioning will, but I think the problems will be less pronounced because there is not a large population that suffers from these problems that is inherent to the area.

A large African American population also created alot of white flight in LR as well which left much of the city in disrepair as many affluent white families started settling elsewhere. This left many parts of the city in disrepair and put undue burdens on infastructure as the population needlessly expanded over larger areas. Something analogous would probably never happen in NWA because the white/black thing is almost non-existant, and the large hispanic population basically already has their own city in NWA (Springdale's estimated to be 35% hispanic and only 47% white).

Disclaimer: I am not intending to make judgements on the social circumstances of African Americans and other minority groups. I am just wanting to elucidate some of the things that tend to happen when their is a big minority population in growing cities.

[Mith242]

I posted that previous info in this topic because it just seemed to fit. I didn't mean it in that I thought the NWA metro will outgrow the one in central Arkansas. I still don't think this metro is going to pass up central Arkansas (at least in our lifetimes). But I had wondered where our growth was compared to the 90's.

And yes there's still a long way to make NWA a more diverse community. It won't happen overnight but I do see things slowly changing. But we also still have to face the fact that some minorities still don't feel comfortable moving to our metro currently. But I do think this will slowly change.

[Architect]

I am going to say something controversial here, and I hope that people do not jump down my throat for it. I just do not think that this certain fact can be overlooked though. NWA, save for the recent influx of hispanic immigrants, is a WASP's paradise. The African American population in NWA is marginal which I believe changes the growth dynamics for most of NWA considerably compared to LR/NLR. Contemporary estimates set African American median income at roughly 65% of that of "white" people. Regardless of what causes this disparity it invariably results in less education and higher crime rates among this population. This then results in problems in the public school systems and less safe cities (I go to Hendrix, and my mom in Fayetteville still doesn't want me going to LR by myself because she thinks I'll get shot or something).

NWA, I think will be plagued with "growth" problems just like any other city transitioning will, but I think the problems will be less pronounced because there is not a large population that suffers from these problems that is inherent to the area.

A large African American population also created alot of white flight in LR as well which left much of the city in disrepair as many affluent white families started settling elsewhere. This left many parts of the city in disrepair and put undue burdens on infastructure as the population needlessly expanded over larger areas. Something analogous would probably never happen in NWA because the white/black thing is almost non-existant, and the large hispanic population basically already has their own city in NWA (Springdale's estimated to be 35% hispanic and only 47% white).

Disclaimer: I am not intending to make judgements on the social circumstances of African Americans and other minority groups. I am just wanting to elucidate some of the things that tend to happen when their is a big minority population in growing cities.

[theman]

I am going to say something controversial here, and I hope that people do not jump down my throat for it. I just do not think that this certain fact can be overlooked though. NWA, save for the recent influx of hispanic immigrants, is a WASP's paradise. The African American population in NWA is marginal which I believe changes the growth dynamics for most of NWA considerably compared to LR/NLR. Contemporary estimates set African American median income at roughly 65% of that of "white" people. Regardless of what causes this disparity it invariably results in less education and higher crime rates among this population. This then results in problems in the public school systems and less safe cities (I go to Hendrix, and my mom in Fayetteville still doesn't want me going to LR by myself because she thinks I'll get shot or something).

NWA, I think will be plagued with "growth" problems just like any other city transitioning will, but I think the problems will be less pronounced because there is not a large population that suffers from these problems that is inherent to the area.

A large African American population also created alot of white flight in LR as well which left much of the city in disrepair as many affluent white families started settling elsewhere. This left many parts of the city in disrepair and put undue burdens on infastructure as the population needlessly expanded over larger areas. Something analogous would probably never happen in NWA because the white/black thing is almost non-existant, and the large hispanic population basically already has their own city in NWA (Springdale's estimated to be 35% hispanic and only 47% white).

Disclaimer: I am not intending to make judgements on the social circumstances of African Americans and other minority groups. I am just wanting to elucidate some of the things that tend to happen when their is a big minority population in growing cities.

[astrife]

My point was that because NWA is unique in this regard I do not believe it will get a reputation for ever being that dangerous or a bad place to send your kids to public school. This I think will factor into the areas growth rates not declining as much because of all the problems cities encounter when they start getting to a certain point of size.

Of course whites and hispanics commit crimes, but it's impossible to not look at the fact that LR is number 10 on CNN's most dangerous cities in America. http://money.cnn.com/2006/10/30/real_estat...ities/index.htm Much more than a majority of cities on that list all have sizable African American populations. I do not really think that's just a coincidence. LR is a much more dangerous place to live than NWA; you guys denying this must be doing so based off your own anecdotal evidence or because of the emotional attatchment you have for your city/area in Arkansas.

[Arkansas Student]

This is purely my conjecture, but let's examine the timeline of development of the two metros when talking about their relative "safety." Little Rock has been an urban area for many, many year. I think most of us agree that a higher concentration of people in one place generally means a higher crime rate. Little Rock has had many years to develop a "criminal community" under these circumstances. In contrast, NWA has only been seriously considered a metro for the last 10-20 years (I'm not including Ft. Smith here). As more people concentrate in the area, crime will naturally increase and a "criminal community" will develop. So, by this idea Little Rock will continue to have more crime than NWA because it is a more established metro area, but eventually this relationship may become equal or NWA may even surpass Little Rock in crime, depending on how growth occurs.

Do racial tensions contribute to crime? In some cases, yes. But I bet the casual researcher would find that most crimes in Little Rock involve two or more people of the same race and/or socio-economic class. That's just a guess on my part, though. Consider the recent statistics coming out of the Springdale PD showing that most of the crime in Springdale in 2006 was conducted by "white" people, despite the prevailing opinion that an increase in Hispanics (or other non-caucasian populations) will lead to more crime.

Those who follow the local news in Fayetteville will notice that an arrest has recently been made in the double-homicide committed in Fayetteville recently. The suspect is a man who came to the area from New Orleans, a traditionally crime-ridden city. I have a strong suspicion that the increase in crime in Arkansas and surrounding states, if it does truly exist, may be attributable to the displacement of a well-established "criminal community" out of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. That's just my theory.

A little common sense goes a long way in preventing oneself from becoming the victim of a crime. Little Rock is perfectly safe if one exercises the kind of safety precautions they should in any urban area (including NWA).

[db909]

This is purely my conjecture, but let's examine the timeline of development of the two metros when talking about their relative "safety." Little Rock has been an urban area for many, many year. I think most of us agree that a higher concentration of people in one place generally means a higher crime rate. Little Rock has had many years to develop a "criminal community" under these circumstances. In contrast, NWA has only been seriously considered a metro for the last 10-20 years (I'm not including Ft. Smith here). As more people concentrate in the area, crime will naturally increase and a "criminal community" will develop. So, by this idea Little Rock will continue to have more crime than NWA because it is a more established metro area, but eventually this relationship may become equal or NWA may even surpass Little Rock in crime, depending on how growth occurs.

Do racial tensions contribute to crime? In some cases, yes. But I bet the casual researcher would find that most crimes in Little Rock involve two or more people of the same race and/or socio-economic class. That's just a guess on my part, though. Consider the recent statistics coming out of the Springdale PD showing that most of the crime in Springdale in 2006 was conducted by "white" people, despite the prevailing opinion that an increase in Hispanics (or other non-caucasian populations) will lead to more crime.

Those who follow the local news in Fayetteville will notice that an arrest has recently been made in the double-homicide committed in Fayetteville recently. The suspect is a man who came to the area from New Orleans, a traditionally crime-ridden city. I have a strong suspicion that the increase in crime in Arkansas and surrounding states, if it does truly exist, may be attributable to the displacement of a well-established "criminal community" out of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. That's just my theory.

A little common sense goes a long way in preventing oneself from becoming the victim of a crime. Little Rock is perfectly safe if one exercises the kind of safety precautions they should in any urban area (including NWA).

[astrife]

This is purely my conjecture, but let's examine the timeline of development of the two metros when talking about their relative "safety." Little Rock has been an urban area for many, many year. I think most of us agree that a higher concentration of people in one place generally means a higher crime rate. Little Rock has had many years to develop a "criminal community" under these circumstances. In contrast, NWA has only been seriously considered a metro for the last 10-20 years (I'm not including Ft. Smith here). As more people concentrate in the area, crime will naturally increase and a "criminal community" will develop. So, by this idea Little Rock will continue to have more crime than NWA because it is a more established metro area, but eventually this relationship may become equal or NWA may even surpass Little Rock in crime, depending on how growth occurs.

Do racial tensions contribute to crime? In some cases, yes. But I bet the casual researcher would find that most crimes in Little Rock involve two or more people of the same race and/or socio-economic class. That's just a guess on my part, though. Consider the recent statistics coming out of the Springdale PD showing that most of the crime in Springdale in 2006 was conducted by "white" people, despite the prevailing opinion that an increase in Hispanics (or other non-caucasian populations) will lead to more crime.

Those who follow the local news in Fayetteville will notice that an arrest has recently been made in the double-homicide committed in Fayetteville recently. The suspect is a man who came to the area from New Orleans, a traditionally crime-ridden city. I have a strong suspicion that the increase in crime in Arkansas and surrounding states, if it does truly exist, may be attributable to the displacement of a well-established "criminal community" out of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. That's just my theory.

A little common sense goes a long way in preventing oneself from becoming the victim of a crime. Little Rock is perfectly safe if one exercises the kind of safety precautions they should in any urban area (including NWA).

[Aporkalypse]

Some points on this thread, which probably belongs on the LR forum. I think you would get a better discussion of it there and less disruption of the thread.

1. This is not an uncommon misconception of someone that moves to college in a new area that was raised in an insulated lily-white rural (or in this case suburban) area.

2. Crime rates are deceptive. Did you know that murder rates and violent crimes per capita for Little Rock are basically the same for whites as they are in NWA (this is not true of property crime like burglaries, etc)? Virtually all murders in LR are black on black and involve drug use or sales. It's not a badge of honor to be sure but it's not as if your typical white kid from Hendrix going to Park Plaza and the River Market is in any more danger than you would be at the NWA Mall or Dickson. There are neighborhoods to avoid and those to use caution in in LR and there is practically no reason you would or should be in those areas. Growing up in LR, going to Hendrix and UAMS, etc my trips to those areas were rare and for a specific purpose - football games at Central High, the state fair, an occasional trip to the original Sim's, etc.

3. Regarding race, LR is actually one of the whiter mid-to large sized cities in the South. LR is 40% black. Compare this with Memphis (64%), New Orleans (67%), Shreveport (51%), Baton Rouge (50%), Jackson (71%), Birmingham (74%), Mobile (46%), Montgomery (50%), Atlanta (61%), Savannah (57%), Columbia (47%), Richmond (57%), Norfolk (44%), Durham (44%) etc. As far as cities that have fewer black residents than LR, Charleston has 36% Greensboro 37% , Winston-Salem 37%, Charlotte 33%, Raleigh 28%. Little Rock is considerably more diverse than midwestern cities like Tulsa, OKC, and Springfield that some NWA residents may identify more with but in the South it is one of the whiter cities, a distinction probably lost on someone that hasn't visited many major cities and hasn't spent much time touring the South. That said, none of that really matters. My point is just that casting LR as being a largely black, crime-dominated city kind of typecasts you as someone that must've grown up outside the South or a major city.

4. I encourage you to travel around a bit more. You'll find that basically no place of any size has a crime rate as low as that in NWA or is as white, if those are your two standards. Perhaps rural New England or the Dakotas or Northern Minnesota/Wisconsin. No doubt LR has relatively high crime compared to these areas but not compared to most other areas. Incidentally, none of these areas save NWA are growing.

5. Black on black inner city, drug-affiliated crime is a touchy issue for a forum like this. It's a problem in a lot of major cities and smaller ones as well. I would caution you, though, that you can't extrapolate that to your risk of living in (or God forbid visiting) these places. Virtually all of these crimes occurs in areas you would never visit for reasons you would never associate yourself with. Incidents of an inner city drug user/gangbanger killing an innocent in LR are so rare that I can distinctly remember each one that's happened in my adult life and can count them on my hand.

6. Little Rock a city in disrepair? Are you kidding? By what standard? I assume you haven't traveled much.