Pope Commons

[HartfordTycoon]

If I remember correctly, the parking lot is sunken below Park Street. Even several years ago I thought that stores should front on the street, above the parking.

I would also take look at the corner of Laurel and Park Streets as a gateway to the complex.

You are correct, and I think that would would.

[Yankee.Peddler]

If I remember correctly, the parking lot is sunken below Park Street. Even several years ago I thought that stores should front on the street, above the parking.

I would also take look at the corner of Laurel and Park Streets as a gateway to the complex.

It looks like the plans call for the parking lot to be sunk below the level of Park Street. Nevertheless, the lot largely remains a barrier between the street and core shops. The "streetside shops" near the walkway collectively take up 4,000 square feet. That's no bigger than an average mall store.

I don't see how the corner of Park and Laurel can be considered a gateway since the development is angled away from that intersection.

Finally, what's the deal with the proposed angled street parking plan on the north side of Park Street? I don't see that working at all.

For the record, I don't think this project will necessarily destroy the fabric of Park Street like Charter Oak Marketplace did to Flatbush Avenue. I just think there are many better ways to use this site and integrate Parkville, Pope Park, and Frog Hollow.

[MadVlad]

Now that I get a better look, I'm agreeing with you guys. I'm always for development at the street, not set back. No idea why I brain-farted about that earlier...

[drc72]

If I showed you a picture of what was there before, you'd cry. Streets of rowhouses with big broad sidewalks from Charter Oak to Arch St. All bulldozed for for Smith Tower and Sheldon Charter Oak apartments. They even removed the street grid which left The Polish National Home sideways to Charter Oak (the street that ran in front of it was removed).

The entire neighborhood should be razed (like Dutch Point), the rowhouses brought back and the street grid should be restored.

I would love see what it looked like before. Can you post a pic?

[JimSawhill]

Folks, I have to admit that I'm not a big fan of this proposal. While it is an obvious asthetic improvement over the former Bradlees building, it nonetheless remains a glorified strip mall with a large parking lot surrounding it. I don't think it will provide a better link between Parkville and Frog Hollow. I also don't think it will attract the kind of "exclusive" retail and "upscale" dining the website suggests. You're going to successfully lure people from Farmington and Avon to this site? I don't think so. Yes, the site sits directly off I-84, but -- as we all know -- it's not exactly "immediately accessible" from the highway. Sisson Avenue is the closest exit and that requires a few left turns and probably a mile of city driving before you reach the parking lot.

Friends of Pope Park have done a great job thus far revitalizing this Hartford gem. The Bradlees building sits directly across from it. Instead of building another strip mall, why not build a mixed-use development with true streetside retail and lofts overlooking the park?

What is in the shopping plaza now? I know when I left in 2004, there was a ValueMart and a Sav A Lot food Store. (there's a few Sav-A-Lot here in Florida, and they got some good food values. I like shopping in Sav-A-Lot).

JimS

[redbaron]

What is in the shopping plaza now? I know when I left in 2004, there was a ValueMart and a Sav A Lot food Store. (there's a few Sav-A-Lot here in Florida, and they got some good food values. I like shopping in Sav-A-Lot).

JimS

Yup, same stores..

I could care less wether shops are street side or not, the site is another rundown eyesore and anything would be an improvement. If I had my choice maybe some row houses fronting the park. The fact is the developer seems to be trying to reuse what already exists and make some improvements. I guess we could speculate on what we would like to see all day, I for one will be happy top see the site being reused creatively.

[Luca Brasi]

I would love see what it looked like before. Can you post a pic?

I wish I could, but I don't have a scanner.

[JimSawhill]

Yup, same stores..

I could care less wether shops are street side or not, the site is another rundown eyesore and anything would be an improvement. If I had my choice maybe some row houses fronting the park. The fact is the developer seems to be trying to reuse what already exists and make some improvements. I guess we could speculate on what we would like to see all day, I for one will be happy top see the site being reused creatively.

redBaron:

Ok... same stores. What will happen to the stores that are there now? Save-A-Lot is trying to go UPSCALE (at least here in FL), so I hope they'll stay - Hartford as Stop & Shop on New Park, Bravo on Albany and Adams in Wethersfield. Sav-A-Lot would be a great anchor for Pope Commons.

JimS

[HartfordTycoon]

redBaron:

Ok... same stores. What will happen to the stores that are there now? Save-A-Lot is trying to go UPSCALE (at least here in FL), so I hope they'll stay - Hartford as Stop & Shop on New Park, Bravo on Albany and Adams in Wethersfield. Sav-A-Lot would be a great anchor for Pope Commons.

JimS

We have Save A Lot in the fairly new Metro Center Shopping Plaza on North Main. That plaza is actually pretty well done and has been a huge success and improvement in my opinion. There is also a Family Dollar, Chinese Restaurant, and decent urban clothing store there as well. And, I just found my long lost barber working in the Barbershop Supreme Clientele that's in there! Overall it's a still a strip mall though, but it works for the location. I think the same could be said of this Pope Commons project.

[JimSawhill]

We have Save A Lot in the fairly new Metro Center Shopping Plaza on North Main. That plaza is actually pretty well done and has been a huge success and improvement in my opinion. There is also a Family Dollar, Chinese Restaurant, and decent urban clothing store there as well. And, I just found my long lost barber working in the Barbershop Supreme Clientele that's in there! Overall it's a still a strip mall though, but it works for the location. I think the same could be said of this Pope Commons project.

Save a Lot opened a new supermarket? Nice...I just hope they'll build more up there.

JimS

[redbaron]

Just drove by, there is a huge banner on the empty building (old Bradlees) saying pope commons coming 2008 with a big picture of the development.

[Whaler0718]

I agree with everybody who criticizes this site plan. If there really is the market for retail here--which I doubt--we need a development that is mixed use and fronts Park Street, with parallel parking on the street. A submerged garage is a perfect idea, especially given the nature of the lot--sunken. What's there now is horrible and nearly anything would be an improvement, granted, but this is a prime opportunity to get it right, and I'm sick of seeing new retail in Hartford model itself on the suburban strip mall (i.e., charter oak).

[HartfordTycoon]

I agree with everybody who criticizes this site plan. If there really is the market for retail here--which I doubt--we need a development that is mixed use and fronts Park Street, with parallel parking on the street. A submerged garage is a perfect idea, especially given the nature of the lot--sunken. What's there now is horrible and nearly anything would be an improvement, granted, but this is a prime opportunity to get it right, and I'm sick of seeing new retail in Hartford model itself on the suburban strip mall (i.e., charter oak).

I agree with you in principle, but I want something feasible that improves that block as soon as possible. Retail plazas can get a new lease on life with extensive renovation and beautification. I'm not a huge fan of suburban developements either, but not sure I would really expect a developer to go crazy over there right now and build underground garages, and mixed use retail/residential etc. Maybe that's the realist in me speaking, but I'll be pretty satisfied just to see whats there transformed into what they are proposing. That will go a long way IMO, then we can further examine what improvements are right for the area once we just get some of the grittiest eyesores cleaned up.

[MadVlad]

Why not create retail with residential above it? The market for residential is there: Park Place Towers, to my knowledge, have been virtually rented to capacity for their tenure there. Why wouldn't another, similar tower succeed? Sink the garage, front the retail to Park St, and build up a a bit, doesn't that make sense?

[HartfordTycoon]

Why not create retail with residential above it? The market for residential is there: Park Place Towers, to my knowledge, have been virtually rented to capacity for their tenure there. Why wouldn't another, similar tower succeed? Sink the garage, front the retail to Park St, and build up a a bit, doesn't that make sense?

I would say all of that makes perfect sense, but is it doable without first making some effort to just improve the appearance of the plaza? Maybe I'm in too much of a hurry for them to hurry up and fix the damn eysore and know that upgrading the plaza is very realistic and can be accomplished soon, whereas the more ambitious plans would obviosly take more time, involve more complicated financing, and very well may be beyond the scope of what this particular developer can deliver.

[MadVlad]

I would say all of that makes perfect sense, but is it doable without first making some effort to just improve the appearance of the plaza? Maybe I'm in too much of a hurry for them to hurry up and fix the damn eysore and know that upgrading the plaza is very realistic and can be accomplished soon, whereas the more ambitious plans would obviosly take more time, involve more complicated financing, and very well may be beyond the scope of what this particular developer can deliver.

Why would you need to make it look better when you'll be knocking it down? What I propose is for something totally different than the nonsense that is there now.

[HartfordTycoon]

Why would you need to make it look better when you'll be knocking it down? What I propose is for something totally different than the nonsense that is there now.

Yeah, but for stuff to happen there have to be people with money who want it to happen. I guess that's why I don't see the more ambitious plans having a realistic chance at this point. However there is a real chance at some improvement on the table right now.

[superstudlyhunk]

Couldn't agree more with MadVlad's mixed-use proposal for the property. Streetside retail, residential out back with a subterranean garage for tenants and customers would probably be the "best-use" from that site. The fact is, every city would love to have this on any blighted lot.. and i'm willing to bet the developer initially envisioned the same use, but the financials just didn't work out so he opted with the current plan.

But there could be an alternate logic behind why these particular plans surfaced. That lot has performed terribly from a retail perspective.. no anchor tenant seems to make it long there. Now the potential problem with bringing the retail to streetside is that your customer base would be more reliant on pedestrian traffic, which is cutoff from parkville by 84, and on the other side, that hill leading up to the retail-busy section of Park St. is a natural barrier that would could disrupt pedestrian traffic flow. It's a possibility the developer saw this as a weakness and found it safer to go with a plan that would continue to attract customers by car, hence the current plan. I don't know, just a thought. I personally think it could work to bring it streetside, and if park towers is near full occupancy, the residential aspect would support strong financial projections for the project overall.

Anyway, kinda pointless to speculate though, i mean "it is what it is," and this looks to be a vast improvement over what it was previously.

[GHartford]

Couldn't agree more with MadVlad's mixed-use proposal for the property. Streetside retail, residential out back with a subterranean garage for tenants and customers would probably be the "best-use" from that site. The fact is, every city would love to have this on any blighted lot.. and i'm willing to bet the developer initially envisioned the same use, but the financials just didn't work out so he opted with the current plan.

But there could be an alternate logic behind why these particular plans surfaced. That lot has performed terribly from a retail perspective.. no anchor tenant seems to make it long there. Now the potential problem with bringing the retail to streetside is that your customer base would be more reliant on pedestrian traffic, which is cutoff from parkville by 84, and on the other side, that hill leading up to the retail-busy section of Park St. is a natural barrier that would could disrupt pedestrian traffic flow. It's a possibility the developer saw this as a weakness and found it safer to go with a plan that would continue to attract customers by car, hence the current plan. I don't know, just a thought. I personally think it could work to bring it streetside, and if park towers is near full occupancy, the residential aspect would support strong financial projections for the project overall.

Anyway, kinda pointless to speculate though, i mean "it is what it is," and this looks to be a vast improvement over what it was previously.

If you go to the site, there is a very limited amount (4,000sf) of retail on the street. I don't understand it, why not just move the whole thing right onto the street? Parking sould still be in the back or underground but the streetscape would be so much nicer.

[superstudlyhunk]

Your guess is as good as mine, I agree with you a 100%, it would be great to see those storefronts. But, by putting the retail at streetside, the developer is substantially limiting the amount of retail space he'd be able to offer to tenants when compared to his current plaza plans. I don't like it from an urban planning point of view, but it's gotta work financially also.

[Afro Saxon]

If I showed you a picture of what was there before, you'd cry. Streets of rowhouses with big broad sidewalks from Charter Oak to Arch St. All bulldozed for for Smith Tower and Sheldon Charter Oak apartments. They even removed the street grid which left The Polish National Home sideways to Charter Oak (the street that ran in front of it was removed).

The entire neighborhood should be razed (like Dutch Point), the rowhouses brought back and the street grid should be restored.

Agreed, I remember when I first happened on Sheldon as youngster, even then it seemed out of place. In a city with plenty affordable housing I don't see the point of having that downtown.

[GHartford]

Your guess is as good as mine, I agree with you a 100%, it would be great to see those storefronts. But, by putting the retail at streetside, the developer is substantially limiting the amount of retail space he'd be able to offer to tenants when compared to his current plaza plans. I don't like it from an urban planning point of view, but it's gotta work financially also.

Why would moving the current planned building to the street affect the amount of retail space? Not all of the space would be accessable via the street, but some would and that would create a streetscape.

[superstudlyhunk]

Why would moving the current planned building to the street affect the amount of retail space? Not all of the space would be accessable via the street, but some would and that would create a streetscape.

correct me if i'm wrong, but the lot is below grade, sloping down from street level.. so it would be impossible to place a building of those dimensions up to the street.

[mudcrab]

Did anyone ever hear any more about this?

Shall we just assume it is not happening, like everything

else in Hartford? I came here two years ago as an

optimist about the city and its future -- can't wait to get

the heck out of here now.

[The Voice of Reason]

Did anyone ever hear any more about this?

Shall we just assume it is not happening, like everything

else in Hartford? I came here two years ago as an

optimist about the city and its future -- can't wait to get

the heck out of here now.

I got here 2 years ago and I see all of the progress and it encourages me.

The refurbishment of a strip mall means very little to me, to the city. The opening of all that downtown housing does. If you do not spend every day downtown like I do maybe you dont see the changes, but they are not minor improvements.

I hope your opinion turns around. This city needs people like me and you.