Atlantic Park (Under Construction)

[vdogg]

The sunrise plan would never pass:

"I thought it was a very interesting proposal," Vice Mayor Louis Jones said.

"It seemed realistic. It quite frankly seemed to be the kind of proposal that might fit in with the Oceanfront. It's not a big skyscraper type thing."

That statement is about as country bumpkinish as it gets. "Yeah Bertha, they need to keep them big skyscraper things out of our town"

[vdogg]

The proposed building would stand 150 feet tall - nearly the same height as the convention center - but current city zoning only allows 75-foot hotels at the Dome site. "Obviously, a 75-foot envelope wouldn't work," Haddad said.

City officials are considering changing the height restrictions to allow taller hotels on certain sites.

John Lauterbach, a legal advise r at Oceana Naval Air Station, said the Navy doesn't have any objections as long as the city doesn't increase the allowed density on these sites and abides by the Federal Aviation Administration's height and obstruction limitations along flight paths to air stations.

I knew this would come up. That one line has Rudee Loop written all over it. I always thought that the blanket height limit over the entire oceanfront was a tad draconian.

[scm]

A nice idea, but who would pay for it and where would it take us?

and how much would it cost? Monorail costs are many multiples of light rail, typically 4X. (see link). I cannot imagine that AH would pay for it, because they don't want to be the owner and shoulder the liability exposure.

The best long term solution is a street level streetcar, with some dedicated pedestrian only zones, running from the end of the LR (transit center on the current Jack Rabbit storage at Norfolk Ave and Birdneck) down Norfolk (on the old rail ROW) to Atlantic, up Atlantic to 19th, back out to Birdneck, then to the transit center. Another route could leave out the Norfolk Ave path, and go straight to 19th, over to Atlantic and run on a loop, on both sides of Atlantic, down to Rudee Loop and up to 31st, then back. Best solution to moving conventioneers between oceanfront hotels and the center, while providing mass transit connections for residents. Probably would lead to extremely restricted vehicular traffic on Atlantic, and install pedestrian only zones for stretches of Atlantic. Very popular in Europe in similar settings.

[vdogg]

I cannot imagine that AH would pay for it, because they don't want to be the owner and shoulder the liability exposure.

You're right, they won't.

Armada Hoffler wants to start non-exclusive negotiations with the city for the $215 million project. Armada Hoffler estimates the city would have to spend $65 million on the monorail and infrastructure.

That's a pretty steep committment on the city side. Has AH ever done anything that didn't require a large city committment. I really wish we could get some true private investment going in this town. At least sunrise isn't asking for handouts (yet).

[cpeakesqr]

I think it's lacking, design-wise. It matches nicely with the convention center, but that's the only thing I like. It better have a damn good interior to make up for what it lacks.

How do monorails fit in at the beach and "big skyscraper things" don't? Give me a break! Backwards a$$ redneck!

[Padman]

I can't imagine the City spending $65 million just to get a few folks staying in a modest sized hotel occassionally over to the new convention center. You could buy a lot of additional, conventional transit with that investment. I guess the idea is that the monorail would also bring tourists in for special events at the oceanfront, allowing them to park at the convention center? Still, an expensive way to go. Architecturally, the AH project looks uninspired to me, although I agree that it fits in very well, unfortunately. A project like this should complement the convention center, not pull it down to the mean. A lot of people have heard of questionable business practices about AH, especially with regard to withholding payment to subcontractors. I can't verify it though. I have to say that Town Center is a huge success for them. But I think this 19th street proposal needs some more thought, even though the entertainment complex is just what the doctor ordered.

[rusthebuss]

The sunrise plan would never pass:

That statement is about as country bumpkinish as it gets. "Yeah Bertha, they need to keep them big skyscraper things out of our town"

This is the exact reason the city needs to clean house and get people in there that would be progressive. I think these guys still think they are living decades ago. I don't think they realize how important the Sun Rise development is for this entire region. I bet Norfolk would jump on it if people would actually want to visit OV beaches and had the land that Vabeach has.

[andyfried]

Three words,SQUARE, BOXEY, BUILDING.I sure hope they dont choose Armada Hoffler's proposal,but I'm sure they will.

[andyfried]

You can see this building in any suburban office park in america.

[RJWGMU]

You can see this building in any suburban office park in america.

I must agree... I do like the design, just not here, and not as a hotel. It looks like an office building! Not to mention, this is supposed to be the hotel for the CONVENTION CENTER so who the heck do they think they are, proposing a CONVENTION hotel blcoks from the center when they could build right next door.....

As for where this building would fit in, Town Center would be a nice fit... Across Indy from the Westin...

Edited January 22, 2007 by RJWGMU

[vtfan18]

Three words,SQUARE, BOXEY, BUILDING.I sure hope they dont choose Armada Hoffler's proposal,but I'm sure they will.

ummm...I agree. This thing is completely boring! This is supposed to be the flagship hotel for supporting the convention center? Come on...its a less attractive version of Town Center. That's all they've done. Another cookie cutter project by AH.

[scm]

This is supposed to be the flagship hotel for supporting the convention center?

No, this is a hotel to go on the Dome site. It isn't a beachfront hotel, and it isn't a convention center hotel. Yet, it will draw business from both markets.

Interesting that there is absolutely no evidence that there is a greater demand for cutting edge design here. Until a developer can see that putting more money in for better design will lead to better return on investment, it just won't happen here. It does happen in Miami, and it happens in DC. AH has a pretty good pulse on what will sell, and they think this will be good enough to get their desired ROI. Make it more cutting edge (i.e., less "boring" or "boxy"), and you might turn off this market, which is pretty undemanding. In fact, it is argueably insistent on mediocrity -- on many fronts.

[vtfan18]

No, this is a hotel to go on the Dome site. It isn't a beachfront hotel, and it isn't a convention center hotel. Yet, it will draw business from both markets.

Interesting that there is absolutely no evidence that there is a greater demand for cutting edge design here. Until a developer can see that putting more money in for better design will lead to better return on investment, it just won't happen here. It does happen in Miami, and it happens in DC. AH has a pretty good pulse on what will sell, and they think this will be good enough to get their desired ROI. Make it more cutting edge (i.e., less "boring" or "boxy"), and you might turn off this market, which is pretty undemanding. In fact, it is argueably insistent on mediocrity -- on many fronts.

Oh but it is a convention center hotel..."If we're right, not only have we solved the convention center hotel problem, we're also bringing year-round entertainment to the city," Armada Hoffler President Lou Haddad said.

"Armada Hoffler is one of three companies in the running to build a convention center hotel. It will be the first to pitch its plan to the public, at a City Council meeting Tuesday. "

Although it doesn't sit next to the convention center, its pitched as the convention center hotel. It doesn't matter where the hotel sits, it'll draw business from both markets is right, but its main objective is to complement the convention center.

Edited January 22, 2007 by vtfan18

[erdogs]

Not great, but not awfull either. The best part is the monorail. Maybe this will get the other developers to up their projects.

[andyfried]

They should have chosen a more modern design because of the monorail.I think the convention center is a beautiful building with all of it's glass.The monorail should pull up to a fancier building than this proposal.

[mikefaceless]

Not great, but not awfull either. The best part is the monorail. Maybe this will get the other developers to up their projects.

I actually like this proposal. I think Its more balanced than lets say a 50 story Dubai like building sticking out like a sore thumb next too the present development in the area. It just makes more sense from a perspective of scale. Also, with the monorail that would provide a lot of connectivity for the convention center, making high end hotels like the Hilton more feasible of a stay for a convention goer.

Edited January 22, 2007 by mikefaceless

[NorfolkerAtHeart]

Given that CMSS is pretty much the official architecture firm for Armada Hoffler's local developments, I'm not surprised by the mediocrity in the design that was just released in the Pilot. Maybe I'm too cynical, but I really don't believe that Sunrise Development's proposals for the beach are even serious options - but it is nice to dream that those alluring glass towers would ever see real steel and concrete in Hampton Roads rather than another CMSS pre-cast concrete and brick clone.

Armada Hoffler presents this proposed development that now requires the City to pay for the monorail? How audacious is that? The Dome Site is too far and inconvenient to be the Convention Center hotel but too close to justify spending $65 million for a glorified shuttle. The 3/4 mile stub of a monorail is not part of any pre-existing regional mass transportation plan I've seen so it's not likely that it would be extended into a larger transit system. In any case, elevated rail tracks are unattractive in an urban setting and would not be a good option for the resort. So in essence, the monorail is a subsidized toy to Armada Hoffler to make its development fun. For far less than $65 mil, the City could implement an attractive bus-based transit system much like the Downtown DC Circulator (http://www.dccirculator.com) that would be far more effective at shuttling passengers back and forth from the convention center and could be expanded throughout the resort strip.

If Va Beach really wants to support the Convention Center, then get a firm to build an appropriate convention center hotel next to the convention center, and not tie the Dome site to the fortunes of the Convention Center, as is the case in Armada Hoffler's proposal.

Edited January 22, 2007 by NorfolkerAtHeart

[vdogg]

Armada Hoffler presents this proposed development that now requires the City to pay for the monorail? How audacious is that? The Dome Site is too far and inconvenient to be the Convention Center hotel but too close to justify spending $65 million for a glorified shuttle. The 3/4 mile stub of a monorail is not part of any pre-existing regional mass transportation plan I've seen so it's not likely that it would be extended into a larger transit system. In any case, elevated rail tracks are unattractive in an urban setting and would not be a good option for the resort. So in essence, the monorail is a subsidized toy to Armada Hoffler to make its development fun. For far less than $65 mil, the City could implement an attractive bus-based transit system much like the Downtown DC Circulator (http://www.dccirculator.com) that would be far more effective at shuttling passengers back and forth from the convention center and could be expanded throughout the resort strip.

I know the city wants desperately to give this to AH, but that 65 mil is a tough pill to swallow. I think this proposal will be pared down, with the monorail portion dropped, but I think AH will still get it unfortunately.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

Well, it's not the worst thing they've ever designed... Then again, it's not the best thing I've seen. While I think it's a good point that 50+ story towers would not fit in, the architectural design of those buildings might be a nice change of pace for Virginia Beach. As it stands, the Oceanfront and much of its vicinity is extremely-uninspired, boring, and monochromatic. I think something more modern (larger) and glass with high-end, steel finishes a-la the "VB Dubai" look is actually worthy of calling itself a major convention hotel. Hell, as long as its better than the cube of an Embassy Suites Hotel in Hampton (although, architecturally quite lovely inside), then I guess it could be worse...

[tombarnes]

I think it's reasonable to assume that something taller would not receive approval. Having said that, I agree that this is a terribly dull building which could be....anywhere.

[hoobo]

The AH proposal, if it goes ahead, would be non-exclusive according to the quote in the Pilot article. If that's true, there's no stopping the City from also approving the Hyatt proposal. The AH proposal will not solve the convention center hotel woes. It will have to be a combination of this hotel, the Hyatt, the Doubletree (to some degree though I think an upscale renovation is needed), the Hilton, and the Sheraton. The AH hotel is more of an anchor for an entertainment district than an exclusive convention center hotel, anyway. As for the Korean proposal, as most have said, the height will never pass. Considering the dearth of information of that huge proposal, I wouldn't pass on these two solids proposals from AH and Hyatt just for a shot at the moon.

[vtfan18]

I actually like this proposal. I think Its more balanced than lets say a 50 story Dubai like building sticking out like a sore thumb next too the present development in the area. It just makes more sense from a perspective of scale. Also, with the monorail that would provide a lot of connectivity for the convention center, making high end hotels like the Hilton more feasible of a stay for a convention goer.

I guess it depends on which side of the fence you sit. Those of us who wish for something like the Korean project like it because we realize that it's going to take that type of development to finally push Va Beach and the region to the next level. It brings outside architects and an outside perspective to the region. Many of us agree that HR needs some outside perspective b/c all the new projects coming on board are absolutely boring. Yes, the area developers have a formula that works here but outside developers have winning formulas too that can work just as well but with much better design. If you have the mentality that everything should be in porportion to its surroundings, then TC in the pembroke area should have never been constructed. Even if you're a bigger fan of a midrise complex than highrise, I'd still argue the design is bland. Nothing that the region hasn't seen before. Nothing that complements a pretty well designed convention center. The monorail proposal is not the best use of taxpayer funds for its intended purpose. And people want to scream at Norfolk for spending its money on a rail system intended to ease traffic for the region and not just convention goers!

[vdogg]

The monorail proposal is not the best use of taxpayer funds for its intended purpose. And people want to scream at Norfolk for spending its money on a rail system intended to ease traffic for the region and not just convention goers!

Not to mention that Norfolks commitment to LR is $29 million and goes all the way from downtown to military circle. This thing goes 3 blocks and cost $65 million?! The more I think about it the more I'm against it.

[scm]

Oh but it is a convention center hotel..."If we're right, not only have we solved the convention center hotel problem, we're also bringing year-round entertainment to the city," Armada Hoffler President Lou Haddad said.

"Armada Hoffler is one of three companies in the running to build a convention center hotel. It will be the first to pitch its plan to the public, at a City Council meeting Tuesday. "

Although it doesn't sit next to the convention center, its pitched as the convention center hotel. It doesn't matter where the hotel sits, it'll draw business from both markets is right, but its main objective is to complement the convention center.

And I guess when the guy selling you a VW Golf tells you it will carry your family of seven, that makes it a Suburban?

Why don't we listen to the customer (who, after all, is really the one paying for it):

"Windy Christner, director of meetings and expositions for the American Pharmacists Association, said Virginia Beach needs a headquarters hotel across the street or close to the convention center. The association looked at Louisville, Ky., and Virginia Beach to host its 2008 seminar. Louisville won because it had a large hotel just two blocks from the convention center, Christner said."

What Lou Haddad, or Dan Hoffler, or Russ Kirk have to say on this needs to be viewed with a grain of salt. They don't want a Hyatt across the street from the convention center, since they are trying to hold down competition. so they are spinning this as the answer to the convention hotel issue as well.

Actually, the idea I thought always made sense, was to build a huge hotel on the parking lot between 19th & VB Blvd, west of Jefferson, then cross over VB Blvd and buy the Colony Motel with all of that wooded property (maybe even the trailer park) and build even more. Fantastic convention hotel -- right on the planned site, plus some. Then, partner with the city and build a beach club on the ocean front, at Rudee Loop -- low rise, set back (always Myra's vision), and shuttle buses between the hotel and beach club. Sell memberships to locals as well.

[cpeakesqr]

I actually like this proposal. I think Its more balanced than lets say a 50 story Dubai like building sticking out like a sore thumb next too the present development in the area. It just makes more sense from a perspective of scale.

Towers like the one's proposed by SunRise would not be alone for long. As we learned from Town Center, put up one unusually tall building in an extremely awkward place, and more will follow. Settling for mediocrity is a foolish thing to do. Is it the city's prerogative to remain a mediocre resort area, or become all it can be? The army has a way with words...