Grand Rapids Airport (GRR) News and Developments

[LA Dave]

Not to parse details, but Kzoo/BC airport has less passenger volume than Lansing, and their volume is way down in 08 over 07 (-10%).

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?...p;carrier=FACTS

As far as the guy who said Lansing was twice as big as Grand Rapids, I wouldn't even have known what to say to someone so ill informed.

BTW: Allegient was 13% of Lansing's passenger volume last year.

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but GRR's passenger volume is down 8.12 percent this year from 2007 levels.

[GRDadof3]

Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but GRR's passenger volume is down 8.12 percent this year from 2007 levels.

I thought it was smaller than that, like -3%?

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?...p;carrier=FACTS

[MJLO]

It was really not the point. Sometimes it comes across as the GR UPers cheering on other Michigan cities misfortunes if it benefits GR. Imagine how y'all would react if an Airline left GR for Lansing. Imagine how residents in Kzoo would feel if their Airport ceased passenger traffic. I just think we'd do well to watch our tone. The enthusiasm for Grand Rapids, shouldn't translate in to joy over other areas losses. Tho I know that's not what people are trying to say, and I know that's not what we are going for on here. It still sounds like it.

[LA Dave]

I thought it was smaller than that, like -3%?

http://www.transtats.bts.gov/airports.asp?...p;carrier=FACTS

That number was from the KGRR website, based on deplanings/emplanings year to year.

[yankee_farmer]

I agree with all posters that the focus should not be on putting other cities down, but there must also be a realization that regionalization (hopefully) will only bring lower costs. Obviously, if all Western Michigan airports are losing passengers to Chicago and Detroit, lower costs from a Western Michigan airport will beat traveling 3+ hours for cheaper fares.

MJLO, you can't convince me that what K-zoo, GR, and other Michigan cities are suffering from is a lack of land, and small civic boundaries. I grew up in the Boston area, and I don't believe that growth has anything to do with area. If anything, the ability to expand into "country" areas has hurt cities in Michigan more than anything, but I digress (that could be voiced in another thread). You make a good point that K-zoo has higher passenger volume than many other airports in the US, but, I ask you, how many of those other airports have very strong regional competition less than an hour away?

The point here is that the Grand Rapids airport has taken the steps, by building a large parking garage and luring a low cost carrier, to increase competition, which will hopefully lower prices. The long term impacts of this on other airports remains to be seen, but if the cities of this part of the state start to think regionally, everyone will likely benefit in the long term.

[GRDadof3]

I agree with all posters that the focus should not be on putting other cities down, but there must also be a realization that regionalization (hopefully) will only bring lower costs. Obviously, if all Western Michigan airports are losing passengers to Chicago and Detroit, lower costs from a Western Michigan airport will beat traveling 3+ hours for cheaper fares.

MJLO, you can't convince me that what K-zoo, GR, and other Michigan cities are suffering from is a lack of land, and small civic boundaries. I grew up in the Boston area, and I don't believe that growth has anything to do with area. If anything, the ability to expand into "country" areas has hurt cities in Michigan more than anything, but I digress (that could be voiced in another thread). You make a good point that K-zoo has higher passenger volume than many other airports in the US, but, I ask you, how many of those other airports have very strong regional competition less than an hour away?

The point here is that the Grand Rapids airport has taken the steps, by building a large parking garage and luring a low cost carrier, to increase competition, which will hopefully lower prices. The long term impacts of this on other airports remains to be seen, but if the cities of this part of the state start to think regionally, everyone will likely benefit in the long term.

I agree. Lansing and the other smaller cities around this side of Michigan will BENEFIT by Grand Rapids moving into bigger leagues. It does none of those cities any good to fight over small scraps of a continually shrinking pie. Michigan needs a second city that is growing and attracting investments and development and moving into that next tier of cities to compete with Des Moines, Nashville, Richmond, Indy, etc.. Kzoo won't be that city, Lansing won't be that city, Traverse City won't be that city, and on and on.

[MJLO]

I agree. Lansing and the other smaller cities around this side of Michigan will BENEFIT by Grand Rapids moving into bigger leagues. It does none of those cities any good to fight over small scraps of a continually shrinking pie. Michigan needs a second city that is growing and attracting investments and development and moving into that next tier of cities to compete with Des Moines, Nashville, Richmond, Indy, etc.. Kzoo won't be that city, Lansing won't be that city, Traverse City won't be that city, and on and on.

I agree %100, Regionalization is vital if we are to compete as a whole, i'm behind that all the way. I understand the need for the second city to emerge, tho side by side I think GR is already on par with places like Des Moines by numbers alone. All I was commenting on was the tone some people were taking. Made it seem as if they were happy GR was benefit from other places losses. Unintended gloating like that, isn't going to help people understand the need for regional cooperation. People are proud of where the come from, noone wants there home to become less important.

[LA Dave]

While I agree that GR has more of a shot at being a successful 21st century city than say Flint, Jackson or Dearborn, Lansing does have the advantage of proximity to MSU. As a world class research university, MSU should be giving back to the Lansing area in terms of high-tech startups associated with university research. This is certainly happening in Ann Arbor, which is the other Michigan city that probably has the best shot of success. Lansing is also a government city, which tends to attract business (or at least lawyers) who need/want to be close to the lawmakers. Taking these facts together, there should be a market for flights from the capital city that would not necessarily be served by driving to GRR or DTW.

[yankee_farmer]

While I agree that GR has more of a shot at being a successful 21st century city than say Flint, Jackson or Dearborn, Lansing does have the advantage of proximity to MSU. As a world class research university, MSU should be giving back to the Lansing area in terms of high-tech startups associated with university research. This is certainly happening in Ann Arbor, which is the other Michigan city that probably has the best shot of success. Lansing is also a government city, which tends to attract business (or at least lawyers) who need/want to be close to the lawmakers. Taking these facts together, there should be a market for flights from the capital city that would not necessarily be served by driving to GRR or DTW.

Perhaps, but I don't know if there is enough of a market to justify NOT making the drive (eventually, a train ride) to GR. I doubt fares going out of Lansing will be competitive with GRR going forward. . .

[RustTown]

What's all of this talk, and I've seen in just a few times in the last few posts, about Lansing being within GR's sphere of influence? Lansing is much more closely connected and integrated with the eastern side of the state. Again, Allegiant didn't get snatched up by Metro, because it would have been a duplication. Lansing lost Allegiant because it was too close to Metro. GR is far enough from Chicago and Detroit that it's pretty obvious why GR got Allegiant. When Capital Region is too expensive, Lansingites don't fly out of Ford, they fly out of Metro or Bishop. If you want to argue the spheres of influence, Muskegon, Kazoo and the like are clearly within GR's; Lansing is not. So, please don't make the mistake of arguing this from a sphere of influence viewpoint as to why GR got Allegiant, because that simply isn't the case.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Lmichigan

[MJLO]

Omg who cares y'all this is so off the point of what this thread is intended. I understand ego's flying, but the current line of conversation has nothing to do with the title of the thread, lets save these philosophical conversations for places more appropriate.

[GRDadof3]

Omg who cares y'all this is so off the point of what this thread is intended. I understand ego's flying, but the current line of conversation has nothing to do with the title of the thread, lets save these philosophical conversations for places more appropriate.

Why is there all this drama when you and LMichigan are around?

[RustTown]

Why is there all this drama when you and LMichigan are around?

Oh, now you know you're wrong. My original response in this article was to a comment that even other GR members thought was unconstructive and silly. The other was to once again correct a wrong-headed argument. Don't even try to put this on me or MJLO. Everything has been rather civil, anyway. There haven't been any personal attacks upon until your post, which was hardly appropriate.

Edited November 14, 2008 by Lmichigan

[walker]

Coming back from a driving trip to the yoopee last week, I noticed a number of flylansing billboards along either US 31 or 131 or maybe both. Considering their placement they were obviously aimed at people from the northern lower peninsula who might be on their way to catch a flight in Grand Rapids. I can

[GR8scott]

Well... unfortunately WOODTV is speculating it will be Allegiant, based on clues they uncovered this weekend.

Why do you say "just not allegiant."

We have the 4th highest average airfare of any airport in the country, i'll take ANY LCC at this point.

well after being gone for a while and reading up on this topic I will start here.

I origianlly said "just not allegiant." for the following reasons

-There is no hub system, (Southwest doesnt have one either but the difference being SW flies between mid and large markets, if GRR landed SW it would be one of the smaller markets whcih is a good thing providing flights to larger ones)

-Allegiant flies from small markets to a few, mostly secondary airports like Orlando SANFORD and Phoenix MESA

-Anther reasoning was the fact that Allegiant was already established in LAN and a new brand would have been more options I also thought taht it would have een unlikely to come here for this reason

now in retrospect, this is a worse case scinario, with GRR stealing from LAN and basically adding no options to teh area as well as making it more difficult for another low cost carrier to come although not impossible.

My thoughts were if GRR landing Jet blue then there would be flights to NEW destinations such as the hubs in Boston , JFK, Dulles, Orlando Int, FLL

if it was Air Tran then it could have been Midway, Boston, ATL, Baltimore / Wash, Fort Myers, and Orlano INT

Southwest could have been Vegas, PHX, LAX, midway, Baltimore, or ORlando INT

my point being is a gain in options at GRR is still a good thing there but those options are about the worst case gain in options at the expence of our neighboring LAN which is probably doomed in the long run ( although I could see surviving it with a small operation of NWA plus a low cost carrier to only 4 destinations or so)

[GR8scott]

What's all of this talk, and I've seen in just a few times in the last few posts, about Lansing being within GR's sphere of influence? Lansing is much more closely connected and integrated with the eastern side of the state. Again, Allegiant didn't get snatched up by Metro, because it would have been a duplication. Lansing lost Allegiant because it was too close to Metro. GR is far enough from Chicago and Detroit that it's pretty obvious why GR got Allegiant. When Capital Region is too expensive, Lansingites don't fly out of Ford, they fly out of Metro or Bishop. If you want to argue the spheres of influence, Muskegon, Kazoo and the like are clearly within GR's; Lansing is not. So, please don't make the mistake of arguing this from a sphere of influence viewpoint as to why GR got Allegiant, because that simply isn't the case.

I definatly agree with you here and there are some ppl on the GR page that seem like they have never left the GR area? I have traveled all over, lived in several cities and I currently live in LANSING although I will always consider GR home because thats where I went to highschool and my parents live there. I cant tell you how many times people from the east side or lansing area do not even know that GR is the second biggest city in the state. Surprised? I am not, Lansing has MORE influance in the state, It has teh government offices and the large nationally know university. Lansing is by all means MUCH more influenced by the east side than it is to GR 9-1 maybe even 10-0

I travel for business, I almost always use metro because of the convience. would rather drive an hour and not have a layover and be reimbursed for my millage and parking while the company still saves money.....that simple. Your wither going to use LAN for the convience or Metro for the price and teh convience. Now I do know of some people that have used Flint probably because they offer a few more destinations than lansing and are still cheaper than GRR, but GRR doe NOT have the pull that soem people think it does. A low cost carrier will hopfully drive down the prices but moving it from LAN will make it less competetive than adding a new one.

[LA Dave]

What's all of this talk, and I've seen in just a few times in the last few posts, about Lansing being within GR's sphere of influence? Lansing is much more closely connected and integrated with the eastern side of the state. Again, Allegiant didn't get snatched up by Metro, because it would have been a duplication. Lansing lost Allegiant because it was too close to Metro. GR is far enough from Chicago and Detroit that it's pretty obvious why GR got Allegiant. When Capital Region is too expensive, Lansingites don't fly out of Ford, they fly out of Metro or Bishop. If you want to argue the spheres of influence, Muskegon, Kazoo and the like are clearly within GR's; Lansing is not. So, please don't make the mistake of arguing this from a sphere of influence viewpoint as to why GR got Allegiant, because that simply isn't the case.

You're right, which is another reason why I don't see GRR becoming Lansing's airport. Lansing is connected with metro Detroit in an historic economic sense (Oldsmobile) and politically (as the seat of government of a state where most people live in the tri-county area) and educationally (MSU, with U-M and WSU in the southeast, are the three big research Us). Heck, I think that metro Detroit is actually closer to Lansing (certainly East Lansing is) than to metro GR.

There is no reason for a Lansing person to drive 65 miles to GRR when by driving somewhat further to DTW, he/she can pick up direct flights to half the globe.

All that said, on a GR board, you can expect folks here to be GR partisans. So don't take it personally.

[Rizzo]

Am I the only one here left wondering where in hell the fuel and spark was for this fire?

Edited November 15, 2008 by Rizzo

[GRDadof3]

I definatly agree with you here and there are some ppl on the GR page that seem like they have never left the GR area? I have traveled all over, lived in several cities and I currently live in LANSING although I will always consider GR home because thats where I went to highschool and my parents live there. I cant tell you how many times people from the east side or lansing area do not even know that GR is the second biggest city in the state. Surprised? I am not, Lansing has MORE influance in the state, It has teh government offices and the large nationally know university. Lansing is by all means MUCH more influenced by the east side than it is to GR 9-1 maybe even 10-0

I travel for business, I almost always use metro because of the convience. would rather drive an hour and not have a layover and be reimbursed for my millage and parking while the company still saves money.....that simple. Your wither going to use LAN for the convience or Metro for the price and teh convience. Now I do know of some people that have used Flint probably because they offer a few more destinations than lansing and are still cheaper than GRR, but GRR doe NOT have the pull that soem people think it does. A low cost carrier will hopfully drive down the prices but moving it from LAN will make it less competetive than adding a new one.

Please put away the claws and provide posts where anyone said any of that. Thanks.

[Prankster]

well after being gone for a while and reading up on this topic I will start here.

I origianlly said "just not allegiant." for the following reasons

-There is no hub system, (Southwest doesnt have one either but the difference being SW flies between mid and large markets, if GRR landed SW it would be one of the smaller markets whcih is a good thing providing flights to larger ones)

-Allegiant flies from small markets to a few, mostly secondary airports like Orlando SANFORD and Phoenix MESA

-Anther reasoning was the fact that Allegiant was already established in LAN and a new brand would have been more options I also thought taht it would have een unlikely to come here for this reason

now in retrospect, this is a worse case scinario, with GRR stealing from LAN and basically adding no options to teh area as well as making it more difficult for another low cost carrier to come although not impossible.

My thoughts were if GRR landing Jet blue then there would be flights to NEW destinations such as the hubs in Boston , JFK, Dulles, Orlando Int, FLL

if it was Air Tran then it could have been Midway, Boston, ATL, Baltimore / Wash, Fort Myers, and Orlano INT

Southwest could have been Vegas, PHX, LAX, midway, Baltimore, or ORlando INT

my point being is a gain in options at GRR is still a good thing there but those options are about the worst case gain in options at the expence of our neighboring LAN which is probably doomed in the long run ( although I could see surviving it with a small operation of NWA plus a low cost carrier to only 4 destinations or so)

And that is TEH truth!!!

[arcturus]

The average domestic round-trip fare out of Ford Airport is $435. That's $105 more than the national average and fifth-highest among the top 100 airports. The major carriers have cut service and replaced many of the 737s and other mainline jets with smaller "regional jets" and commuter aircraft that have fewer seats.

and

The report for Ford Airport found more than 525 West Michigan travelers a day are bypassing local runways.

http://www.mlive.com/grpress/opinion/index..._for_alleg.html

Count me as one of the bypassers next month

[LA Dave]

The average domestic round-trip fare out of Ford Airport is $435. That's $105 more than the national average and fifth-highest among the top 100 airports. The major carriers have cut service and replaced many of the 737s and other mainline jets with smaller "regional jets" and commuter aircraft that have fewer seats.

and

The report for Ford Airport found more than 525 West Michigan travelers a day are bypassing local runways.

http://www.mlive.com/grpress/opinion/index..._for_alleg.html

Count me as one of the bypassers next month

I have bypassed GRR for a number of years, and it is getting easier as there are fewer flights and smaller aircraft serving the airport. The last time we visited Michigan, my family flew to ORD on Jet Blue (fantastic!) and drove all the way to Ann Arbor. Going back, we drove from GR to ORD. We were able to fit in some time in Chicago, one of our favorite cities, on both ends of the trip so that routing made sense.

If I were a business traveler in GR, it wouldn't probably make a lot of sense to drive either to ORD or DTW to catch a plane. But for the vacation traveler, it is a viable option.

[GRDadof3]

I was out by the airport and grabbed some photos. Security level "Orange" so I didn't want to get any closer.

[fotoman311]

I was out by the airport and grabbed some photos. Security level "Orange" so I didn't want to get any closer.

Arnie Lee has some close-up photos posted on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/arnielee/3032...-grandrapidsmi/

[d8alterego]

I just bought a ticket to fly home after the holidays (too expensive during) to visit. I bought it through Alligient Air because it only cost me $169 (that's with taxes and fees) from Sanford/Orlando to Lansing for a round trip. That's an awesome steal and I couldn't pass it up. I was just dissapointed that their service into GRR doesn't start till February.

I've already started my support for their new service!