Grand Rapids Airport (GRR) News and Developments

[joeDowntown]

All I know is that every airplane I fly out of or into Ford Intl. is packed. That has to say something. Now we just need a lowcost carrier and some more flights to other hub cities.

I can't believe how mammoth that thing is going to be. I like big projects as much as the next guy, but wow! This just blows my mind. the ramp is twice the size of the terminal! Do we really anticipate that we'll be growing enough to justify this thing?

I like it, but... WOW. I can understand the reservations on the aeronautics board about approving it...

[Cabot]

I agree at first the ramp does look large.

So I went on Google Earth and looked at the size of ramps for other similar sized cities, Louisville & Dayton, and they are just as large.

It seems that we are par for the course and planning for the future like other cities our size.

[NorthEnder]

I don't know how big the footprint is, but most likely. I don't disagree that a parking ramp is needed. Unlike mgreven, it seems like every time I've flown out of GRR (which is seldom because it's so expensive compared to other airports), I can only find a space WAY out by the charter companies at the East end of the long-term lots, and it's winter and friggin freezing.

I've got the footprint roughly 1200x400 (1.9million square feet for 4 floors), not including the main street, and not including the helix.

This thing is absolutely massive.

[tamias6]

I've got the footprint roughly 1200x400 (1.9million square feet for 4 floors), not including the main street, and not including the helix.

This thing is absolutely massive.

To illustrate the massiveness of the parking ramp, here's the Alpine Meijer and the Parking Ramp side by side.

Huge does not even begin to describe the shear size of this beast.

[Time]

Wow 1200 feet long. a quarter of a mile is 1320

[GRDadof3]

Detroit Metro's new parking ramp houses 11,500 cars, but it looks to be about the same footprint as GRR's new ramp (just taller):

http://www.walkerparking.com/

[Time]

the lowest bid was by Christman, but it was still about 13 million more than what the airport was expecting. the press states that they may have to cut some corners

Here is part of the link:

Sticker shock at Gerald R. Ford International Airport isn't confined to airfare.

There's also the proposed parking ramp, with a glass-and-steel canopy, which could cost $13.7 million more than expected.

The lowest construction bid came in at $118 million -- 13 percent higher than what airport officials expected to pay.

That is forcing airport leaders to rethink plans and look at ways to cut corners, though it's not expected to ground the project.

"We were going down the runway and discovered we're a little heavier than we thought," Aeronautics Board member Dean Agee said.

The four-story ramp would add 4,000 parking spots and feature covered skywalks and a curved canopy roof connecting it to the terminal, similar to the roof on the downtown DeVos Place convention center.

The projected construction cost was $104 million, according to airport engineers and an architectural firm.

The Christman Co. submitted the lowest bid at $117.9 million, while the highest of the seven bids came in at more than $145 million.

The project's total price tag will jump by $16 million -- to $134 million with Christman's bid -- when accounting for permit, architectural and engineering fees, airport leaders estimate.

Contractors consider the airport ramp the biggest prize of the year in Michigan, said Granger Construction Co. Vice President Darryl Massa. Lansing-based Granger came in second in the bidding -- $9 million higher than Christman, also based in Lansing.

[sparky05]

In my continuing quest to be arrested on suspicion of terrorism, I went to the Airport on friday and shot these pics of new signage:

There are also signs of life out in the long term lot:

[GRDadof3]

In related news:

Airport aiming to keep travelers close to home

I would guess the "leakage" rate of people traveling to other airports to get lower fares is now at least 20% or higher. All they have to do is just do a priceline search and they'll see how much cheaper it is to fly out of other airports.

[suydam]

In related news:

Airport aiming to keep travelers close to home

I would guess the "leakage" rate of people traveling to other airports to get lower fares is now at least 20% or higher. All they have to do is just do a priceline search and they'll see how much cheaper it is to fly out of other airports.

Sure $100 cheaper is sometimes worth driving to Detroit or Chicago... but not always... and I know people driving that far to save $50. Crazy! You spend almost half of that in gas, and you'll make up the difference in parking. That's not to mention the time difference (getting there early + driving 2.5 hours to detroit, longer to Midway).

[GRDadof3]

Sure $100 cheaper is sometimes worth driving to Detroit or Chicago... but not always... and I know people driving that far to save $50. Crazy! You spend almost half of that in gas, and you'll make up the difference in parking. That's not to mention the time difference (getting there early + driving 2.5 hours to detroit, longer to Midway).

Is parking that much more in Detroit? I paid $12/day just recently at GRR (if I remember correctly). I agree that driving to Detroit to get a $50 savings is crazy. $100 - $150 is getting closer to making it worthwhile. I once drove to Flint to fly to Minneapolis because it was a $500 savings.

Those Continental Express jets out of GRR are TINY btw. I don't think I've ever flown in that small of a "jet", where one side of the aisle is one seat.

[sparky05]

Those Continental Express jets out of GRR are TINY btw. I don't think I've ever flown in that small of a "jet", where one side of the aisle is one seat.

I love those Embraer jets when you can get the single seat. No seatmate, plus nice big windows.

[NorthEnder]

I heard they're going to go ahead with the low bid on the project, even though it was above their estimated costs.

According to those I spoke with, the airport was unreasonably low on their budget numbers, taking too much off for "a slow construction climate."

[GRDadof3]

I heard they're going to go ahead with the low bid on the project, even though it was above their estimated costs.

According to those I spoke with, the airport was unreasonably low on their budget numbers, taking too much off for "a slow construction climate."

The architecture consultant that was hired to provide numbers for the "budget" also admitted they made a bunch of mistakes. There was an article about it last week:

http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/08/airp...rking_ramp.html

[suydam]

Is parking that much more in Detroit? I paid $12/day just recently at GRR (if I remember correctly). I agree that driving to Detroit to get a $50 savings is crazy. $100 - $150 is getting closer to making it worthwhile. I once drove to Flint to fly to Minneapolis because it was a $500 savings.

Those Continental Express jets out of GRR are TINY btw. I don't think I've ever flown in that small of a "jet", where one side of the aisle is one seat.

$17/day in the new terminal's ramp at DTW.

I know there are economy lots,but then you need to get there even earlier (wait for a shuttle, etc.)

$500 difference?! That's crazy! I'd be driving to Flint for that too!

[NorthEnder]

The architecture consultant that was hired to provide numbers for the "budget" also admitted they made a bunch of mistakes. There was an article about it last week:

http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/2007/08/airp...rking_ramp.html

I completely missed that article last week.

Hopefully with a shiney new ramp, we'll get a few more flights in and out of GR - It's pretty sad that during the middle of the day, you're lucky to see 2 jets at a gate at a time.

[Cabot]

On a personal note about Flights and prices.

I recently bought a flight from GR to D

[AlexPKeaton]

I also love those Embraer jets. Even if you don't get the single seat, you're at least guaranteed to not get a middle seat. Based on the statistics I can see why GRR was rated poorly, but I love having a smaller airport. It's so easy to navigate, and I never have to show up that early for my flights because the security line is rarely long.

I did drive to Chicago for a flight overseas, but I saved on parking by leaving my car at a friend's house.

What's also interesting is how prices have dropped for flights leaving Traverse City and Pellston. I know people who frequently use both and it's quite competitive with Grand Rapids now. It used to be two are three times as expensive to fly out of those cities.

[LA Dave]

In related news:

Airport aiming to keep travelers close to home

I would guess the "leakage" rate of people traveling to other airports to get lower fares is now at least 20% or higher. All they have to do is just do a priceline search and they'll see how much cheaper it is to fly out of other airports.

This is a potentially big problem. I am flying back to GR in a week, and have to take a little Canadair RJ between ORD and GRR on United. I remember when the little plane for United on that route was a 737, and 727s were fairly common. Now, a 737-500, the smallest version of that jet, is the biggest UAL aircraft on the route and American is flying RJs.

[Rizzo]

Does anyone have any thought as to why GR is so under served?

[destijl]

This is a potentially big problem. I am flying back to GR in a week, and have to take a little Canadair RJ between ORD and GRR on United. I remember when the little plane for United on that route was a 737, and 727s were fairly common. Now, a 737-500, the smallest version of that jet, is the biggest UAL aircraft on the route and American is flying RJs.

I am also flying back to GR next week. I have found that the airfare to GRR is usually $75 to $150 more than flying to Chicago or Detroit . Since I usually travel alone, it makes sense to pay extra for the convenience (time saved, and I can take The Rapid to my final destination), but if I were traveling with a family of 4, the extra $300-$600 savings would be worth the drive from Detroit or train from Chicago.

[highwayguy]

Does anyone have any thought as to why GR is so under served?

The lack of competing airlines is likely one reason, and the departure of ATA and US Airways did not help with that. I am reminded of a recent episode that took place with Northworst, er, Northwest Airlines. A few years ago there was a low-cost airline called Independence Air that began offering service between Lansing and Washington-Dulles on a very frequent basis. Soon after, Northwest also started offering service between the same two airports. At one point, between Independence and Northwest, there were as many as a dozen flights per day between LAN and IAD! While I was glad to be able to take advantage of an $88 roundtrip fare, including taxes, I knew that it wouldn't last long, as both airlines were clearly losing money on the route. In early 2005, Independence dropped all flights from Lansing, and completely folded about a year later. It took about 6 months for Northwest to follow and drop all of their flights from LAN to IAD as well. They offered one flight per day to/from Washington-National for a while, but I think that flight is gone now as well. Any new airline that may be looking at GRR would have to be worried about the same thing happening here.

For the airlines that are here, it's also simply a matter of making money. Even at an average 78 percent capacity for flights at GRR, there are still nearly one in four seats that are not getting filled. Why would they want to add flights and increase their operating costs when there is no guarantee that the additional seats will get filled? I think rather than simply looking at the number of flights and seats, the larger issue might actually be reducing cancellations and delays. Personally, I don't care if every flight I'm on is full, as long as it departs and arrives on time. A lot of this recently seems to be due to things such as being short on pilots or baggage handlers, or having too many flights too close together at the hubs. GRR would be much less "miserable" at 78 percent capacity if Northworst wasn't cancelling and delaying flights all of the time due to staffing problems. It would also be helpful if there were more direct flights to the places people want to go, and fewer to DTW (7 per day) or ORD (13 per day).

Edited September 1, 2007 by highwayguy

[GRDadof3]

The study is back and apparently GRR is "leaking" 30% of its potential customers, most of them premium flyers, and most of them surprisingly to Chicago O'Hare:

http://www.grbj.com/GRBJ/Nav/Login.htm?Art...4-9748987135CA}

[joeDowntown]

I could see what they are saying just because of the direct flights you can get from Chicago. I probably wouldn't drive to Lansing to catch a slightly cheaper flight, but would drive to Chicago or Detroit to save myself a couple of long layovers. If you park at some of the hotels around O'hare, it can cost as little as $20 and you get shuttle service.

GRR can be maddening. I flew back from Tokyo yesterday (13 hours), only to find that all of the flights into GRR had been cancelled due to bad weather (which was only bad in Chicago, and not *that* bad). $350 later (which is highway robbery), I drove 4 hours in a one-way rental from Avis.

I think the key is more direct flights. But the airport knows that, the problem is getting them here

Joe

The study is back and apparently GRR is "leaking" 30% of its potential customers, most of them premium flyers, and most of them surprisingly to Chicago O'Hare:

http://www.grbj.com/GRBJ/Nav/Login.htm?Art...4-9748987135CA}

[NorthEnder]

I wonder if 30% is big enough for the airlines to do something about the leakage.

Recently Koslosky was said to said to say Airports need to support themselves (meaning, he and the board wouldn't ask for a subsidy in the form of a millage to support lower fares), he also said he wasn't convinced other airports were doing their best to get off of the subsidy wagon.

I can't say I blame him, tax payers shouldn't support an airport, but then again, if we need to be competitive with the other airports, and they subsidize airfare, isn't it only logical we do it to?

I just have no idea what the answer is... If Northwest, United, et al., are allowed to do what they've been doing, i don't see a change in the foreseeable future