The State of Downtown Retail

[B&R]

My two cents.

1. Free parking on the streets was a good idea then and it still is.

2. Narrowing some other streets and adding more diagonal parking is a good idea and could extend the Main street "feel" and encourage more retail businesses on the side.

3. If big, national retailers come to DT Greenville that would be a good thing. I hope the local folks prosper but let the market decide. If the nationals came there would still be room DT for local business too. There are plenty of parking lots flanking Main St. that would then be more valuable with buildings and businesses than asphalt.

[gvegascple]

My two cents.

3. If big, national retailers come to DT Greenville that would be a good thing. I hope the local folks prosper but let the market decide. If the nationals came there would still be room DT for local business too. There are plenty of parking lots flanking Main St. that would then be more valuable with buildings and businesses than asphalt.

You had me up to point 3. Sometimes what is best for the Market, or for the property owners that lease space downtown, is not what is best for the City or the population as a whole. There currently is an excellent analogy, that of Oil companies' huge profits (the Oil Market and shareholders doing great) at the expense of the general population (our economy is tanking, the cost of any good sold that must be transported is skyrocketing). Eventually, alternative fuels may come into play or people will move closer to work, buy hybrids, etc but there will be a lot of pain that could be avoided while we wait for that long term swing. If we see it coming, recognize symptoms, we should then plan, and react to prevent that pain.

Nature has checks and balances, so should the city put into place something that "checks" a solely market driven phenomenon. I am not for banning national retailers, but for ensuring that both they and local merchants have a place downtown. That same strategy to ensure that both thrive when both exist, should provide , while we wait for the national retailers to arrive, a means to ensure local merchants can succeed and stop closing their doors along Main. We should have the intelligence and foresight to plan, and the wisdom to learn from past or others mistakes.

Edited May 16, 2008 by gvegascple

[DT-Gville]

Many of the retailers close because after a certain hour you get groups of people (especially on the weekends) and a lot more shoplifting and rowdiness because people are geared up for a night out.

I had no idea that shoplifting was such a huge problem. This explains why in some stores (Venti and Ayers are the worst) I often have an employee tailing me throughout the store. Makes my shopping VERY uncomfortable. I don't THINK I look shifty. Anyhow, this explains the reasoning.

[KristenL]

I had no idea that shoplifting was such a huge problem. This explains why in some stores (Venti and Ayers are the worst) I often have an employee tailing me throughout the store. Makes my shopping VERY uncomfortable. I don't THINK I look shifty. Anyhow, this explains the reasoning.

I apologize that you were made to feel uncomfortable....I don't think it was intentional. That is obviously not what we strived for. We tried to let people shop and assist them when necessary . They were just keeping an eye out on things and trying to make themselves accessible to the customer at the same time which is part of their job.

Shoplifters RARELY look shifty. We have rolled back video cameras and watched normal looking people who you would never ever in a million years think would do such a thing...blatantly steal. One time there were two very nicely dressed couples that came in together during the dinner hour. They looked like they could be your next door neighbors. They were extremely friendly. The man with them stole a creamer from a serving set. After they left we noticed it was missing. We looked back at our footage and there he was putting it in his sportscoat. We have had people of every age, color, and walk of life shoplift at one point or the other. MOST of them you would help out on the steet if they asked you in the middle of the night...they look normal and they usually act normal too. Like the old saying..."appearances can be deceiving".

You can call the police, file a report and give them video footage, etc. They can't really do anything in the aftermath. I can't recall a single incident where anyone we caught shoplifting was ever caught afterwards and prosecuted. If they were then we weren't notified. Law enforcement is too busy to take the time to track down petty thiefs (understandably so).

You can't do much about shoplifting other than to try to prevent is BEFORE it happens (unless you are a big corporate store with paid security who has the authority to detain people). If an employee makes a mistake you will get sued (not to mention that it is unsafe for an employee to confront someone). Yes, you can call the police when they are still in your store if you see it happen. The chances are probable that the person will be gone by the time they get there.

Our manager worked for several stores at the mall for years before he came to work for us. They are told never to confront anyone. But they are taught to "overservice" them as a security measure. Ever noticed how many people in a mall store will ask if you need help, need a dressing room, or if you are doing ok...repeatedly. If not...go out there to Express or Victoria's Secret and check it out.

Edited May 19, 2008 by KristenL

[whitehourseview]

You had me up to point 3. Sometimes what is best for the Market, or for the property owners that lease space downtown, is not what is best for the City or the population as a whole. There currently is an excellent analogy, that of Oil companies' huge profits (the Oil Market and shareholders doing great) at the expense of the general population (our economy is tanking, the cost of any good sold that must be transported is skyrocketing). Eventually, alternative fuels may come into play or people will move closer to work, buy hybrids, etc but there will be a lot of pain that could be avoided while we wait for that long term swing. If we see it coming, recognize symptoms, we should then plan, and react to prevent that pain.

Nature has checks and balances, so should the city put into place something that "checks" a solely market driven phenomenon. I am not for banning national retailers, but for ensuring that both they and local merchants have a place downtown. That same strategy to ensure that both thrive when both exist, should provide , while we wait for the national retailers to arrive, a means to ensure local merchants can succeed and stop closing their doors along Main. We should have the intelligence and foresight to plan, and the wisdom to learn from past or others mistakes.

You know, downtown's greatest retail hey day was when national and regional retailers drove the shopping experience. It hasn't been that way since the larger chains moved out, and the biggest retail store today, Mast, is also a small, yet regional presence, that drives a lot of shopping downtown. Anyhow, the oil industry average profit margin is about 8.2% - about typical for the historic average; for all US industry, the average is about 6.8%. I'd guess companies like Nuvox downtown are pulling down bigger profit margins - because the telecommunications sector usually has larger profit margins than energy companies.

A good mix of national, regional and local retailers downtown is probably what should be aimed for, but a lot of that is driven by access to consumers, rents, security, things like that. It's probably not realistic for retailers downtown to keep the same hours as stores at a shopping mall.

[RestedTraveler]

Perhaps the City should close portions of Main Street to public auto traffic, so that people will have no choice but to park and walk.

Something like Boulder's Pearl Street Mall or the 16th Street Mall in Denver would be pretty cool, if done right.

Those two streets (McBee and Broad) are prime candidates for a diet.

Amen to that - Washington, too, in my humble opinion.

[greenvillehistorytours]

Christopher Park Gallery update:

Talked to Betty, the owner of CP Gallery tonight. She will start renovating her expanded space where Spill the Beans is as soon as they move out. The wall won't be knocked down in between...in fact she's going to give a new name to her space next door (even though they are meant to still be connected in business and look). It will be called Rainer's (pronounced Rhiners) after her son's name. It will have a seating area for serving coffee, pastries and things like fruit and cheese. There will be no cappuchinos, lattes, etc. Just coffee (maybe tea too--I didn't ask). It will be furnished in an eclectic look like their current space. Coffee will be served in hand-made mugs like they sell there and people can buy ones just like the ones they drink from. Decor on the tables, walls, etc. will create an ambiance but will all be for sale as well. She'll have displays for pottery and other stuff in there as well. She said it's meant to be geared to adults, not particularly kids. It'll be a unique space for hanging out and socializing. Should be interesting.

[Greenville]

If the city can have a role, or even better the Chamber of Commerce, looking at cities and towns like Asheville, Hendersonville, Black Mountain, etc in the region that have a lot of local businesses in their downtown's would be worth investigating. Seeing how those businesses have thrived in many cases, and in Asheville's case especially, had a nice balance of services and retailers that the local population needs is important in seeing where the city should go from here.

I totally disagree. Why on earth would we want a downtown filled with quaint local retailers that offer products that only serve a very narrow niche of consumers?!? We need national retailers. Nothing is wrong with having stores downtown like Gap, Victoria's Secret, J. Crew, etc. Plenty of people would absolutely love to go to these stores. They represent the next step in the evolution of our downtown. Plus, they would bring more young people and young talent to our downtown. Companies would find it easier to recruit employees, and there would be an even higher demand for downtown living.

Personally, I don't think local retailers play a very big role in the "uniqueness" or "charm" of a downtown. They are an important element of a successful downtown, but I don't think they need to be a prominent element. I realize that we're all different.

[gvegascple]

I totally disagree. Why on earth would we want a downtown filled with quaint local retailers that offer products that only serve a very narrow niche of consumers?!? We need national retailers. Nothing is wrong with having stores downtown like Gap, Victoria's Secret, J. Crew, etc. Plenty of people would absolutely love to go to these stores. They represent the next step in the evolution of our downtown. Plus, they would bring more young people and young talent to our downtown. Companies would find it easier to recruit employees, and there would be an even higher demand for downtown living.

Personally, I don't think local retailers play a very big role in the "uniqueness" or "charm" of a downtown. They are an important element of a successful downtown, but I don't think they need to be a prominent element. I realize that we're all different.

We dont actually need a Gap, Jcrew, Victoria's Secret. We already have them, they are in the Mall (Although, I would be back pedaling right now if you had mentioned a big name bookstore in your list ) I do agree that they have a place downtown, and that they will bring more people and money downtown. These are all very good things. We do, however, need the local retailers, they dont exist anywhere else and are a key component of what defines and differentiates one retail destination from another. I could go to just about any mall, in any city, and the overwhelming majority will be almost identical. I would not book a trip to Dallas to go to Jcrew, I have one right here at the mall. My main concern is that while beneficial to downtown, the national retailers drive rents up and local retailers out, and that will take away from the uniqueness of downtown Greenville as a retail destination. I think we need both national and local retailers, and we also need to plan a way to prevent the phenomenon which squashes our local retailers so we can have both. It is already occuring even without the national retailers here, local businesses are closing down. It is clear that we do not have a mechanism in place to ensure that our local retailers can thrive, and this will get worse.

Edited May 17, 2008 by gvegascple

[linkerjpatrick]

We dont actually need a Gap, Jcrew, Victoria's Secret. We already have them, they are in the Mall (Although, I would be back pedaling right now if you had mentioned a big name bookstore in your list )

Another question to ask is, "What the whole Mall concept flawed in the first place?" It was the Malls which all but destroyed the retal element of many downtowns. Yeah, it's nice to have an enclosed space where you can pretty much do everything retail wise from buy clothes, read books, see a movie and eat out but man would I love it if we have a movie theater in the center of town and more well known retail establishments. Before Cherrydale anyone in the center or Westside of town had to travel over to the Eastside of Greenville, not so bad if you want to go see a movie or eat out to get away from it all so to speak but if you want to go browse the book, electronic or more mainstream clothing outlets it can be annoying and yes they are some of us on the west and north side of town who like to go shopping at places other than Wal-Mart or Hamrick's, not that those places are totally bad if I just want to get some socks or a pair of jeans but if space were an issue I wouldn't mind seeing mini-version of some of those stores.

[whitehourseview]

I totally disagree. Why on earth would we want a downtown filled with quaint local retailers that offer products that only serve a very narrow niche of consumers?!? We need national retailers. Nothing is wrong with having stores downtown like Gap, Victoria's Secret, J. Crew, etc. Plenty of people would absolutely love to go to these stores. They represent the next step in the evolution of our downtown. Plus, they would bring more young people and young talent to our downtown. Companies would find it easier to recruit employees, and there would be an even higher demand for downtown living.

Personally, I don't think local retailers play a very big role in the "uniqueness" or "charm" of a downtown. They are an important element of a successful downtown, but I don't think they need to be a prominent element. I realize that we're all different.

I think you totally misread what I was trying to say. I believe I've indicated a mix of national, regional and local retailers, not out of a necessary desire for the strength and financial flexibility of larger businesses, but because of the varied types of services that different types of businesses can provide. I listed several regional towns that all have varied types of businesses in their center. I'm really looking more for diversity of retail services than I'm looking local, regional or national retailers. I don't want a downtown filled with just quaint little shops that serve odds and ends. But those are important. Downtowns that have a diversity of services would be similar to a financial portfolio filled with a diversity of vehicles. And it really represents a healthier approach to things.

[RestedTraveler]

This debate over National Chains vs. Local Niche Stores has been going on here ever since I've been a member of this forum, and it still never gets boring to me. The bottom line is this: we all want a robust and diverse downtown that is enoyed by the largest possible segment of our community. A few national chain retailers (preferably unique, destination type places that can't be found anywhere else in the area) and a few local retailers that provide products and services that nobody else does combined with a healty mix of both locally-grown and national chain restaurants (which we already have, by the way) is the best way to bake that cake. Would you want too much sugar in your cake? Too much flour? Too many eggs? Too much baking soda or baking powder? Too much salt? No - I think not...not if you want your cake to turn out the way you like it. And you need a good cake pan that's just the right size to contain the cake mix and bake it up right - that's be a well-organized merchant's association. The oven's already on and pre-heated to the right temperatue folks...don't leave the door open too long or you'll let out all the heat.

[goodbye]

We dont actually need a Gap, Jcrew, Victoria's Secret. We already have them, they are in the Mall (Although, I would be back pedaling right now if you had mentioned a big name bookstore in your list ) I do agree that they have a place downtown, and that they will bring more people and money downtown. These are all very good things. We do, however, need the local retailers, they dont exist anywhere else and are a key component of what defines and differentiates one retail destination from another. I could go to just about any mall, in any city, and the overwhelming majority will be almost identical. I would not book a trip to Dallas to go to Jcrew, I have one right here at the mall. My main concern is that while beneficial to downtown, the national retailers drive rents up and local retailers out, and that will take away from the uniqueness of downtown Greenville as a retail destination. I think we need both national and local retailers, and we also need to plan a way to prevent the phenomenon which squashes our local retailers so we can have both. It is already occuring even without the national retailers here, local businesses are closing down. It is clear that we do not have a mechanism in place to ensure that our local retailers can thrive, and this will get worse.

I agree to a certain extent, however I do wonder where the line should be drawn regarding denying national retailers from entering the downtown marketplace. Considering most of our "local retailers" sell products that can be bought in countless other stores (not to mention on the Internet), I view the unique Main Street atmosphere and diversity of pleasant people as the real qualifications for defining our retail destination rather than the shops themselves at this point. I did not always feel this way - in fact, it was only approximately two years ago that I decided to face the facts and look at things a bit differently. I adored Bentley's Bookshop, The Map Shop, Venti, Eden Limited, Earshot, etc... What I had to force myself to realize was that while perhaps unique in name and character, these places offered very few products not already found for much less on the Internet or elsewhere. While I agree with you and prefer these quaint shops over the generic big-name/big-box supermarkets, most people are not on the same page and therefore will not support them, thus our little shops eventually fail from lack of steady support. Edited May 17, 2008 by Skyliner

[B&R]

Variety and choices seem to me to be the ideal you should aim for. One of the characteristics of downtown is that there is room available. If Main St. fills up then just move a block or two to the side. Lively side streets would be a great upgrade.

Years ago my family stopped in New Orleans for a couple of days on vacation. I don't think that McDonalds on Canal Street was going to run off the owners of those French Quarter restaurants.

[KristenL]

I agree that a mix of retailers would be of benefit everyone. The rent on Main St. is already high. Yes, it would probably go up even higher when bigger fish come in but locally owned stores with strong sales should be able to adjust to that through increased revenue gained by an increase in people who are downtown to shop...not just to eat out and see the river.

I do not think we need stores we are already have that are in every mall in the country though. I believe we would be better off with stores we don't already have in the area (i.e. Urban Outfitters, Anthropologie, Crate & Barrel, etc.). I still think it will be a little while before national retailers come downtown due what is going on with Woodruff Road. Corporate retailers will see that as a better fit and more of a sure thing...especially with the economy like it is right now. If they put a location on Woodruff they will then study to see if the population and their local customer base is high enough to support opening an additional store in the area.

Once you get a nationally recognizable retailer (one who everyone has heard of) in a space downtown who is succesful at that location others will follow.

The average retail sales per square foot downtown are not high enough yet to bring them there. If they were, getting one in would be a non-issue. Those figures allow them to differentiate between a sea of possible places to put locations throughout the country and give a degree of certainty to the locations that they choose. National retailers have higher overhead and they need high retail sales per square foot to be successful.

Edited May 19, 2008 by KristenL

[vwsam]

Dunkin' Donuts Like No Other Coming To Greenville

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777797

After a search throughout the Southeast, the multimillion-dollar company decided to put its flagship shop on the corner of Coffee and Main streets.

Dunkin' Donuts tells WYFF News 4 that the store-front shop will have two stories, leather seating and plasma TVs.

The company is partnering on the project with the Boston Red Sox, parent organization of the Greenville Drive.

[swu_BA_student]

Dunkin' Donuts Like No Other Coming To Greenville

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777797

After a search throughout the Southeast, the multimillion-dollar company decided to put its flagship shop on the corner of Coffee and Main streets.

Dunkin' Donuts tells WYFF News 4 that the store-front shop will have two stories, leather seating and plasma TVs.

The company is partnering on the project with the Boston Red Sox, parent organization of the Greenville Drive.

This is awesome, can't wait. Here come the nationals.

[linkerjpatrick]

Dunkin' Donuts Like No Other Coming To Greenville

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777797

After a search throughout the Southeast, the multimillion-dollar company decided to put its flagship shop on the corner of Coffee and Main streets.

Dunkin' Donuts tells WYFF News 4 that the store-front shop will have two stories, leather seating and plasma TVs.

The company is partnering on the project with the Boston Red Sox, parent organization of the Greenville Drive.

I don't care if it is two stories, has leather furniture and plasma TV's if they are stale tasting as they are in the other shops around town I'd rather indulge in the Krispy Kreme experience. I don't go to a donut shop to sit on my butt and watch TV I go to enjoy donuts, that is if Dunkin is actually still selling donuts by the time they get the shop built.

[GvilleSC]

I don't care if it is two stories, has leather furniture and plasma TV's if they are stale tasting as they are in the other shops around town I'd rather indulge in the Krispy Kreme experience. I don't go to a donut shop to sit on my butt and watch TV I go to enjoy donuts, that is if Dunkin is actually still selling donuts by the time they get the shop built.

While Dunkin' Donuts is not my favorite place to get donuts, I think one would be missing the IMPORTANCE of this store as a major development downtown, if they just don't like their offerings. It seems to me to be more in line with the Michelin on Main store in this sense. Some people never will see its purpose, because they'll never have the need or desire to visit the place. But, just like how Michelin on Main represents a major investment and commitment to downtown, Dunkin's "flagship store" will be just as iconic perhaps and reveal the true dimensionality of life in our urban core.

[linkerjpatrick]

While Dunkin' Donuts is not my favorite place to get donuts, I think one would be missing the IMPORTANCE of this store as a major development downtown, if they just don't like their offerings. It seems to me to be more in line with the Michelin on Main store in this sense. Some people never will see its purpose, because they'll never have the need or desire to visit the place. But, just like how Michelin on Main represents a major investment and commitment to downtown, Dunkin's "flagship store" will be just as iconic perhaps and reveal the true dimensionality of life in our urban core.

No offense but I think the Michelin on Main is not the best use of space. I could see M.O.M. being a better fit at the Airport or maybe closer to the ball field and tied in with a sponsorship or something. Their was talk about the iPlace store being above it but I would rather see something like that or a real Apple Store on that corner.

I can sort of see the excitement of DD putting the "flagship store" there but that doesn't excuse the inferior product or lack of product focus.

[Greenville]

This is great news! I know we heard this mentioned a few weeks ago, but it's nice that it is "official" per MSNBC and WYFF. It says a lot about our downtown that Dunkin' Donuts is putting this unique version of their store in our downtown. Better still, it's not in the West End. This gives us another nice attraction, even if it doesn't appeal to everyone.

Just wait, guys. This in combination with the Main at Washington development in the old Woolworth's location will be HUGE for our downtown.

[gs3]

Dunkin' Donuts Like No Other Coming To Greenville

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777797

After a search throughout the Southeast, the multimillion-dollar company decided to put its flagship shop on the corner of Coffee and Main streets.

Dunkin' Donuts tells WYFF News 4 that the store-front shop will have two stories, leather seating and plasma TVs.

The company is partnering on the project with the Boston Red Sox, parent organization of the Greenville Drive.

Not planning to eat many donuts myself (too much middle age spread happening), but this is great to see. Hopefully with the leather furniture, wi-fi, plasmas, etc, it will be another good choice to spend work hours on a laptop.

[swu_BA_student]

I hope its gonna be 24 hours. Back in New York there's a ton of 24 hour dinners and DDs. One of the things I miss is the night life. If you don't sleep well you always had company.

[linkerjpatrick]

I hope its gonna be 24 hours. Back in New York there's a ton of 24 hour dinners and DDs. One of the things I miss is the night life. If you don't sleep well you always had company.

Maybe if they have an on site bakery I will give them a change but it disturbs me they didn't mention one.

[gman]

We already have enough eating establishments and coffee shops downtown. What we need more of is retail. This does not excite me at all.