The State of Downtown Retail

[gs3]

I assumed we were talking about Charleston.

Gotcha.

[gman430]

I'm surpised this story hasn't been posted yet. It talks about local and national retailers/restaurants for downtown: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....07250339/-1/rss

[gvegascple]

I'm surpised this story hasn't been posted yet. It talks about local and national retailers/restaurants for downtown: http://www.greenvilleonline.com/apps/pbcs....07250339/-1/rss

I am glad that such an article was written, it is apparent that we are approaching a crossroad with downtown Greenville's popularity rising, but with rising rents, and many unique boutiques and cafe's starting fall to the wayside.

I disagree with the comparison between Greenville and Charleston made by Bob Hughes. I also could not disagree more about the "positive" effect that having a Subway and Gap has had for downtown Charleston. People do not go to Charleston for the GAP, they go for a unique quality provided by the area, whether it is the people, that water, the restaurants, old word charm etc. We are still building on that draw, and crowding out our unique boutiques with national retailers in a manner that does not also support local business would hurt our growth. There is a big difference between having national retailers located where tourists are flocking to take advantage of those tourist dollars and saying those retailers are the REASON the people/tourists are there. People have not booked flights to, or decided to pack up and move to Charleston because they found out that King St. has a Subway and a Victoria's Secret. Now, once there, they may spend their money in those places, that I do not disagree with. I think of national retailers more as parasites that move in and take advantage of an area's success once established but with some negative consequence. (But we do need a Borders, that I can not argue against). If I were to think of why folks come downtown, The falls, The Peace Center, Mast General, Soby's, etc, no where does a national retailer fall into that category.

Also, for the few local businesses that OWN their stores, they are much better positioned than those that seem to be closing left and right. Those that have had the vision and opportunity to purchase their buildings I feel are currently the only unique boutiques that have a fighting chance unless the city comes up with a better plan to provide for both national retailers and unique boutiques coexisting in the same place.

Edited July 26, 2008 by gvegascple

[GvilleSC]

If I were to think of why folks come downtown, The falls, The Peace Center, Mast General, Soby's, etc, no where does a national retailer fall into that category.

That is because this is downtown Greenville today that you're listing. Since there is no national retailers (other than something like Staples), how can you ask where they fit into that list?

[gvegascple]

That is because this is downtown Greenville today that you're listing. Since there is no national retailers (other than something like Staples), how can you ask where they fit into that list?

That statement further emphasizes my point then, people are definitely NOT coming downtown for national retailers, because obviously they are not present. They are not needed to draw a crowd, but show up to take advantage of that crowds' dollars. They then drive up rents, which drive out unique boutiques, and then downtown becomes very similar to its competition, the Magnolia parks, shops at Greenridge, Haywood Mall's, etc. Then its almost too late to turn back, rents will be too high to lure unique boutiques and cafe's back. Greenville will then loose some of it's unique charm and folks will start just going to the shopping center with the same national retailers that are closer to their homes instead.

Any national retailer would have to be specialized in the manner that Mast is. I could see Smith and Hawken, or American Apparel, Anthropology types fitting in, as they tend to coexist better with the local unique stores and would add to Greenville's downtown as a "destination" vibe.

[gman430]

That statement further emphasizes my point then, people are definitely NOT coming downtown for national retailers, because obviously they are not present. They are not needed to draw a crowd, but show up to take advantage of that crowds' dollars. They then drive up rents, which drive out unique boutiques, and then downtown becomes very similar to its competition, the Magnolia parks, shops at Greenridge, Haywood Mall's, etc. Then its almost too late to turn back, rents will be too high to lure unique boutiques and cafe's back. Greenville will then loose some of it's unique charm and folks will start just going to the shopping center with the same national retailers that are closer to their homes instead.

Any national retailer would have to be specialized in the manner that Mast is. I could see Smith and Hawken, or American Apparel, Anthropology types fitting in, as they tend to coexist better with the local unique stores and would add to Greenville's downtown as a "destination" vibe.

Actually Hughes has got it right not wrong. Ever since Staples and Publix opened, I have found myself going downtown to go shopping at these stores and the local ones more then I previously did. I have visited Charleston just to check out Gucci and Saks Fifth Avenue. I personally would love to see some national retailers downtown. No, i'm not talking about McDonald's and Walmart. I'm talking about stores like Borders and Walgreens. I don't see how something along the lines of these would hurt downtown. There isn't a store downtown now that would compete with these two. Instead it would draw more people downtown and they would shop and eat more at the local establishments. It would be compliment not competition to the downtown retail scene. If local retailers/restaurants can't survive downtown due to the high rent rates then they shouldn't have been there in the first place. That's just the way the world works and you can't stop it. Oh and I thought this would be a good time to mention that Zaidee Estella's along Main Street in the West End will be closing down. Don't worry though, the store is relocating not going away: http://www.croxtongray.com/listings/wp-con...n.pdfcompletely.

Edited July 26, 2008 by citylife

[gvegascple]

Actually Hughes has got it right not wrong. Ever since Staples and Publix opened, I have found myself going downtown to go shopping at these stores and the local ones more then I previously did.

These stores are not on Main St, and are you saying that someone from Simpsonville is going to drive past their Staples to come to the one in the McBee shopping center? I cant imagine someone thinking, "hey, lets go to downtown Greenville, they have a Staples there" from Easley, Simpsonvile, Asheville, etc.

I have visited Charleston just to check out Gucci and Saks Fifth Avenue.

These are boutiques not commonly found elsewhere and would not deter from downtown as a destination. Stores such as these bolster my point and add to the uniqueness of downtown as a destination.

If local retailers/restaurants can't survive downtown due to the high rent rates then they shouldn't have been there in the first place. That's just the way the world works and you can't stop it. Oh and I thought this would be a good time to mention that Zaidee Estella's along Main Street in the West End will be closing down. Don't worry though, the store is relocating not going away: http://www.croxtongray.com/listings/wp-con...n.pdfcompletely.

I certainly hope that proper long term planning can help sustain Downtown Greenville's growth and stop the demise of local retailers including the one you have mentioned downtown. If there is nothing unique about it, folks will just go to whatever is closest to them instead. I do not think letting marketplace economics solely determine our future is a good idea.

[swu_BA_student]

I actually live downtown near pendelton west and I use Publix and Staples all the time. These places are for the poeple that live here not people in Simpsonville. I hate having to get in a car and drive to big box retail in other areas. I wish we had a really well done lifestyle center downtown that could take care of all my needs. I would never leave. Most people on this board still look at Greenville as some type of tourist attraction, but for more and more people it is home. I need more of these type of places to fufill my needs beyond a $7 cup of coffee. Also, big box retail drives foot traffic up which can only be good for businesses. If rent goes up and your business is to weak to compete you need to move on to the next "hot spot." As the city grows, more hip locations will open up to become the new great investment, think West Greenville and Stone Ave. One day these places will be the cool, non-commercial/sell out places to be, mark my words.

[gvegascple]

I actually live downtown near pendelton west and I use Publix and Staples all the time. These places are for the poeple that live here not people in Simpsonville. I hate having to get in a car and drive to big box retail in other areas. I wish we had a really well done lifestyle center downtown that could take care of all my needs. I would never leave. Most people on this board still look at Greenville as some type of tourist attraction, but for more and more people it is home. I need more of these type of places to fufill my needs beyond a $7 cup of coffee. Also, big box retail drives foot traffic up which can only be good for businesses. If rent goes up and your business is to weak to compete you need to move on to the next "hot spot." As the city grows, more hip locations will open up to become the new great investment, think West Greenville and Stone Ave. One day these places will be the cool, non-commercial/sell out places to be, mark my words.

I am not sure how this became the "why downtown needs a grocery store and staples" thread. I totally agree that downtown needs such places to support its inhabitants. A pharmacy too. I completely agree that there must be infrastructure to support locals. I don't think that the GAP or McDonalds moving in next to Soby's falls into this category. Hey, if everyone wants all of the unique retailers and cafe's downtown replaced by fast food and mall stores, than maybe I am in the minority and I need to get with the times.

[gman430]

I am not sure how this became the "why downtown needs a grocery store and staples" thread. I totally agree that downtown needs such places to support its inhabitants. A pharmacy too. I completely agree that there must be infrastructure to support locals. I don't think that the GAP or McDonalds moving in next to Soby's falls into this category. Hey, if everyone wants all of the unique retailers and cafe's downtown replaced by fast food and mall stores, than maybe I am in the minority and I need to get with the times.

What's wrong with GAP downtown? People living downtown, on the westside of Greenville, Easley, etc. wouldn't have to drive over to Haywood Mall anymore. Times Square in New York City has a McDonald's and that gets tons of tourists and foot traffic. A lot of the problem with stores downtown is that they are too unique. They only cater to a certain group of people and there just aren't enough of them to keep the store going. I never stepped foot inside Venti before they closed and only visited Uptown Downtown once before they went under. Mast General though, which I have been to many times before is not like that and that's why they have been successful where they are. They offer a broader range of products then most stores downtown do. Also, take a look at Union Square in San Francisco. That's full of national retailers and look how many tourists it gets every year.

Edited July 27, 2008 by citylife

[gvegascple]

What's wrong with GAP downtown? People living downtown, on the westside of Greenville, Easley, etc. wouldn't have to drive over to Haywood Mall anymore. Times Square in New York City has a McDonald's and that gets tons of tourists and foot traffic. A lot of the problem with stores downtown is that they are too unique. They only cater to a certain group of people and there just aren't enough of them to keep the store going. I never stepped foot inside Venti before they closed and only visited Uptown Downtown once before they went under. Mast General though, which I have been to many times before is not like that and that's why they have been successful where they are. They offer a broader range of products then most stores downtown do. Also, take a look at Union Square in San Francisco. That's full of national retailers and look how many tourists it gets every year.

The issue is that you are looking at this from the perspective of how great it would be to have these stores in addition to what we currently have to support the locals and add to the downtown experience. I think that is great, but that it is a short-sighted view. My concern is that there aren't enough people to support these stores (yet) and their presence too quickly will drive out the unique vibe that Greenville has and make it less of a destination. You are comparing downtown Greenville with Times Square in NYC and Union Square in San Francisco. I think we are 50 years from being anywhere near as popular or crowded as those places (if we are lucky) and we will NEVER get there if we loose stores like Venti and the uptown downtown (which many who have grown up downtown have very fond memories of). It is those kind of places that make Greenville a unique destination. It is those kind of places that (originally) made the Time Square's and Union Square's of the world develop into the success stories that they are today.

[motonenterprises]

I say the folks doing this are pros and probably know what downtown needs and will be successful with more than we do. I don't worry about it! Somebody's doing something right in Greenville that only other cities can dream about.

[mallguy]

I agree that downtown needs locally-owned or other retailers that don't exist on Haywood and Woodruff Roads, but there's space downtown for both national chains and locally-owned stores, and downtown has traditionally had both. Other downtowns around the Southeast have also traditionally had both.

There are plenty of parking lots and other undeveloped areas downtown that could be built to accommodate more retail space.

Until the early '80s, downtown Greenville had both national chains- from Belk, JC Penney and more, such as some clothing stores, and locally-owned stores, such as Hale's. Columbia had the same until the mid-90s, with Macy's and Belk's and locally-owned clothing stores, and even now, downtown Charleston, Charlotte and Atlanta have both.

I'd say that having more national chains would be a sign of success- that downtown has enough foot traffic and sales that national retailers would be interested in locating there, and there's little risk of locally-owned stores being pushed totally out of downtown in the near future. Even Charleston, which has a Saks, a Gucci and other very desirable national chains, has plenty of locally-owned stores in it.

I strongly prefer national chains but shop downtown just because I like being in an urban area. If it had more national chains, I'd be more likely to shop there- and given the crowds flocking to Woodruff Road's national chains vs. the fewer people who shop downtown, I'd think that having at least a few national chains, while maintaining a lot of locally-owned stores to differentiate downtown, would definitely help.

[Greenville]

I think the uniqueness of downtown gets overemphasized sometimes when it comes to retail. Honestly, who goes downtown so they can go to the local stores with a very narrow range of products?!? I know I don't.

I go downtown because it's fun. It has great tree-lined streets. It has an amazing urban park with beautiful water falls. It has great architecture. It has pedestrians galore. It has a vibe. It has a neat skyline. You get the point. I don't see how more national retailers will change any of that. In fact, I think their increased presence will make our downtown more appealing and successful. It's the next logical step in our downtown's growth and development.

With national retailers, many people would actually start shopping downtown instead of just going to eat, see a show, or stroll. You would see more pedestrians downtown. More money would be spent by tourists and locals alike. And I firmly believe that the good local retailers with appealing products will survive without a problem.

[distortedlogic]

Interesting discussion. Incidentally there was a blurb in this weeks journal (in the "This weeks news" section) that mentioned there was a pole taken about what people want to see DT, and someone actually wants to see a Wal-mart DT. I think most of us all agree that a Walmart would be about the WORST thing that could possibly be DT! Other things mentioned were more familiar such as a movie theater, grocery store, bowling alley. I do think more chains are coming, it is just the nature of cities and business. And some, like a bookstore, would be very positive. I just hope the city and it's leaders use good judgment on which one will compliment DT (ie NOT Walmart)!

[gvegascple]

Interesting discussion. Incidentally there was a blurb in this weeks journal (in the "This weeks news" section) that mentioned there was a pole taken about what people want to see DT, and someone actually wants to see a Wal-mart DT. I think most of us all agree that a Walmart would be about the WORST thing that could possibly be DT! Other things mentioned were more familiar such as a movie theater, grocery store, bowling alley. I do think more chains are coming, it is just the nature of cities and business. And some, like a bookstore, would be very positive. I just hope the city and it's leaders use good judgment on which one will compliment DT (ie NOT Walmart)!

Walmart? Yikes! I can see them bulldozing over falls park and paving it for their parking lot...

I think one of the challenges of having the mall stores and restaurant chains coexist with unique boutiques and cafes downtown is how downtown is currently laid out as one long street with no clearly defined back street or side street set up to support more potential customer traffic. Not having a lower rent alternative to main street makes everyone compete for the same spots and only the national chains will be able to pay the higher rents.

As downtown grows, if we were to focus on developing streets one and then two off from Main into areas that people will want to walk to, shop and eat, then there would be room for both the big name stores everyone knows and for the local businesses to coexist and benefit from each others' draw on downtown.

Edited July 28, 2008 by gvegascple

[breed]

I think one of the challenges of having the mall stores and restaurant chains coexist with unique boutiques and cafes downtown is how downtown is currently laid out as one long street with no clearly defined back street or side street set up to support more potential customer traffic. Not having a lower rent alternative to main street makes everyone compete for the same spots and only the national chains will be able to pay the higher rents.

As downtown grows, if we were to focus on developing streets one and then two off from Main into areas that people will want to walk to, shop and eat, then there would be room for both the big name stores everyone knows and for the local businesses to coexist and benefit from each others' draw on downtown.

My thoughts exactly... there's one very easy way to do this...

Charge for parking on Main Street... viola, instant expansion of downtown.

[benjamesriddle]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Greenville]

My thoughts exactly... there's one very easy way to do this...

Charge for parking on Main Street... viola, instant expansion of downtown.

This is one of the things recommended by Sasaki & Associates in their recent master plan for downtown. I am not sure where I stand on that issue (I can see both sides), but their recommendation is intriguing nonetheless.

[linkerjpatrick]

This is one of the things recommended by Sasaki & Associates in their recent master plan for downtown. I am not sure where I stand on that issue (I can see both sides), but their recommendation is intriguing nonetheless.

Well it's annoying enough to park on Main Street anyway but wouldn't it be a good idea to maybe have more handicap spot on Main Street in front of all the shop or just restrict spots to loading zones or letting passengers off. While I think it's a good thing for county offices and the Health Dept. etc. to be located downtown I think one thing that is slows things down is a good connector road on the southern side of downtown. University Ridge would be ok except it terminates at a little two lane or smaller road (Harris St.) before you get to Augusta Rd. Looking at the map it would be nice a good road could be connected between Church Street, through the current run down Haynie Street neighborhood or Maybe reroute University Ridge down the current Thurston Street and connect to Dunbar.

As much as I love the Liberty Bridge and Falls Park I do miss the access between the west and east side of downtown provided by the Camperdown Bridge.

[benjamesriddle]

Please don't speak of the horror that is Camperdown Bridge!

[mallguy]

Just had to add re: Wal-Mart- there WAS a Wal-Mart predecessor- a chain called Edwards, which Wal-Mart bought, located at Bell Tower Mall, in the anchor spot on the main level closest to the movie theater- downtown-ish for awhile. I recall the space being covered by a blue board as it was vacant by the early '80s.

There was also a Woolworth's on N. Main until probably 1993, and there was a Woolco anchoring Bell Tower Mall, so basically in the West End, until 1982, so similar stores have been downtown in the past.

I'd prefer a Target, but a big-box discount store, done in an "urban" format somewhere downtown, would help draw people who don't like locally-owned stores.

[linkerjpatrick]

Just had to add re: Wal-Mart- there WAS a Wal-Mart predecessor- a chain called Edwards, which Wal-Mart bought, located at Bell Tower Mall, in the anchor spot on the main level closest to the movie theater- downtown-ish for awhile. I recall the space being covered by a blue board as it was vacant by the early '80s.

There was also a Woolworth's on N. Main until probably 1993, and there was a Woolco anchoring Bell Tower Mall, so basically in the West End, until 1982, so similar stores have been downtown in the past.

I'd prefer a Target, but a big-box discount store, done in an "urban" format somewhere downtown, would help draw people who don't like locally-owned stores.

Speaking of Target wasn't their a rumor a while back of one being built on the old Beatie Huff Property (large field next to Berea High School)? Anyone know why that property has never been developed? I'm surprised as it looks like a nice prime spot for something.

[benjamesriddle]

A Target similar to the one shown on this board before would be just fine downtown IMO.

[Galley]

There is a 2-story Target in downtown Minneapolis. It has a vermaport (shopping cart escalator). A smaller, multi-story Target might work in the N. Main area.