The State of Downtown Retail

[GvilleSC]

The parking arrangement looks suburban.

[krazeeboi]

Again, not that much different than McBee Station. You can have some regular parking spaces plus a garage.

[GvilleSC]

The parking in front of Publix and Staples are parallel spots until you get to the stacked, structured parking spaces.

[goodbye]

I'd need to see one of these "urban" stores in context before making a final decision. If the extrerior is any indication of what sits behind the storefront, then I would probably prefer an urban Trader Joe's.

[vicupstate]

I would love to see a Trader Joe's in our urban core, but I doubt the items sold in these 'Marketside' stores overlaps much with a Trader Joe's. Trader Joe's is strictly food and wine.

[gs3]

Looks good to me, and doesn't look like by 'urban' they mean NYC or Chicago.

Snoby anti-Wal-Mart comments coming in 5, 4, 3, 2,..

Don't want to disappoint you Vic....snotty comment coming up below!

Lets add this Wal-Mart downtown, and then while we are at it, turn the Hyatt and Westin in Motel 6 and Super 8. Who needs Blueberry Frog premium fro-yo, I mean really, shouldn't it just be a place that sales Pet Icemilk? New condos, why bother with bricks, just stack mobile homes on top of each other and call it a day. I do dream of the day to see our downtown streets lined with Family Dollar, Dollar General and Freds. Won't it be heaven!

Honestly, on a Wal-Mart downtown, why? Why bring the worst of the burbs with cheap Chinese garbage into downtown? What will be accomplished?

[vicupstate]

What would be accomplished?

Not having to drive to the suburbs to buy a trash can, a mop, socks, underwear, camping gear, CD's or a whole host of things that 85% of the US population buys at a Wal-Mart/Target (yes, they are the same thing), but can't be found Downtown now.

Understand?

[gman430]

Honestly, I think a good compromised location for an urban Walmart or Target to keep the debates down like you saw with Waffle House would be on Church Street across from Zaxby's. Not in the heart of downtown but not too far away either.

Edited November 5, 2010 by citylife

[gman430]

Not having to drive to the suburbs to buy a trash can, a mop, socks, underwear, camping gear, CD's or a whole host of things that 85% of the US population buys at a Wal-Mart/Target (yes, they are the same thing), but can't be found Downtown now.

Understand?

Not saying I disagree with you or anything, but don't these people that move downtown know before hand that retailers such as Walmart and Target don't exist there? If they wanted those retailers, why didn't they just move to the suburbs? Maybe the reason they moved downtown was to get away from the suburban big box stores and not attract them.

Edited November 5, 2010 by citylife

[gs3]

Not having to drive to the suburbs to buy a trash can, a mop, socks, underwear, camping gear, CD's or a whole host of things that 85% of the US population buys at a Wal-Mart/Target (yes, they are the same thing), but can't be found Downtown now.

Understand?

Well lets see....mops and household items are available downtown (Publix, Bi-Lo), socks, underewar available at numerous downtown clothing stores for both men and women, camping gear....doubtful a small urban Wal-Mart would have this, but then why would they need to have it stocked, as Mast General has that niche coverd quite well. CD's, moot point (since they are a thing of the past in the I-Pod age....). Seems most needs can be met downtown.

Since you bring up Target, if a suburban store were to go downtown, a small Target would work, since Target at least has a taste level, IMO.

Not saying I disagree with you or anything, but don't these people that move downtown know before hand that retailers such as Walmart and Target don't exist there? If they wanted those retailers, why didn't they just move to the suburbs? Maybe the reason they moved downtown was to get away from the suburban big box stores and not attract them.

That is an excellent point.

[krazeeboi]

Not saying I disagree with you or anything, but don't these people that move downtown know before hand that retailers such as Walmart and Target don't exist there? If they wanted those retailers, why didn't they just move to the suburbs? Maybe the reason they moved downtown was to get away from the suburban big box stores and not attract them.

But it's not going to be a suburban big box store. You could have made that same argument before Publix came to McBee Station, but the form the store took was very much appropriate for an urban location and was in response to a downtown with a growing population. Same thing with this Marketside concept.

[kristib726]

Not saying I disagree with you or anything, but don't these people that move downtown know before hand that retailers such as Walmart and Target don't exist there? If they wanted those retailers, why didn't they just move to the suburbs? Maybe the reason they moved downtown was to get away from the suburban big box stores and not attract them.

As one of "these people" who actually lives downtown, I sometimes read these threads and shake my head. To answer your question, yes when I moved into my condo almost 9 years ago I knew that I was going to have to schlep out to Woodruff or Haywood Rd. to go to a store like Walmart or Target, but that doesn't mean that I along with other residents in downtown don't appreciate convenience as much as the next person. My moving downtown had nothing to do with getting away from a big box store or suburbia for that matter and it's fairly simplistic to assume that and I don't think that I should have to move to Mauldin or Simpsonville, etc. to have access to stores like Target ,Best Buy, etc. Personally I'm not a fan of Walmart, but having a Target or a tasteful walmart (and the urban stores are fine) would be fantastic. The day that Publix and Staples opened in McBee Station was one of the happiest days of my life because it's super convenient. While I do still go to the Publix south pleasantburg store, it's generally for things that I can't find at the downtown store or to go to Fresh Market. When SAMS and Walmart were on Laurens rd. it wasn't such an huge task to run down to pick up items that I needed, but since they've moved to Woodruff rd., I can count on both hands the number of times that I've visited either one.

Well lets see....mops and household items are available downtown (Publix, Bi-Lo), socks, underewar available at numerous downtown clothing stores for both men and women, camping gear....doubtful a small urban Wal-Mart would have this, but then why would they need to have it stocked, as Mast General has that niche coverd quite well. CD's, moot point (since they are a thing of the past in the I-Pod age....). Seems most needs can be met downtown.

Bless your heart, but it's more expensive to buy certain household items at stores like Publix and Bi-Lo. I've lived in downtown as I mentioned previously for almost 9 years and I have yet to buy underwear down here...lol and to be honest I'm not sure which store would carry it..lol. Just because I live downtown doesn't mean that I want to pay twice the amount for certain items or have less choice and availability.

Just the two cents of a downtown resident....

Kris

Edited November 7, 2010 by kristib726

[DowntownCityGirl]

As one of "these people" who actually lives downtown, I sometimes read these threads and shake my head. To answer your question, yes when I moved into my condo almost 9 years ago I knew that I was going to have to schlep out to Woodruff or Haywood Rd. to go to a store like Walmart or Target, but that doesn't mean that I along with other residents in downtown don't appreciate convenience as much as the next person. My moving downtown had nothing to do with getting away from a big box store or suburbia for that matter and it's fairly simplistic to assume that and I don't think that I should have to move to Mauldin or Simpsonville, etc. to have access to stores like Target ,Best Buy, etc. Personally I'm not a fan of Walmart, but having a Target or a tasteful walmart (and the urban stores are fine) would be fantastic. The day that Publix and Staples opened in McBee Station was one of the happiest days of my life because it's super convenient. While I do still go to the Publix south pleasantburg store, it's generally for things that I can't find at the downtown store or to go to Fresh Market. When SAMS and Walmart were on Laurens rd. it wasn't such an huge task to run down to pick up items that I needed, but since they've moved to Woodruff rd., I can count on both hands the number of times that I've visited either one.

Bless your heart, but it's more expensive to buy certain household items at stores like Publix and Bi-Lo. I've lived in downtown as I mentioned previously for almost 9 years and I have yet to buy underwear down here...lol and to be honest I'm not sure which store would carry it..lol. Just because I live downtown doesn't mean that I want to pay twice the amount for certain items or have less choice and availability.

Just the two cents of a downtown resident....

Kris

Downtown 6 years; couldn't have said it better myself.

[swu_BA_student]

Downtown 6 years; couldn't have said it better myself.

Ditto, I use the White Horse WM and hate the thought of even having to be there for a few minutes. I would love to have more of these stores, in an urban form of course. Some people are millionaires and think the city should only be for them and their type. These are the same brilliant minds which have brought us into this wonderful economy we are in because they believed we could exist on services without production. Kind of like what they believe the entire DT business scene should look like. I am a downtown home owner, not a renter, and we need some reasonably priced options for regular day to day goods downtown if we are going to grow it as a place to live. In Atlanta they have a Target within a few blocks of urban housing and condos, right in the city as well. I don't understand why people here complain about big box retail.

[GvilleSC]

In Atlanta they have a Target within a few blocks of urban housing and condos, right in the city as well. I don't understand why people here complain about big box retail.

I hope this was just the first example you could think of, and you're not suggesting that we use Atlanta as our model for urban growth...

[Greenville]

I don't think anyone here would be against a well-planned urban Target, especially since they have succeeded with urban locations in other cities. What most of us don't want is a pathetic attempt by Wal-Mart to use our great downtown as an experiment in their quest to create "urban" stores.

[gs3]

I don't understand why people here complain about big box retail.

I've already stated I would support an urban Target. I was all for Publix coming to downtown. I would support an urban Best Buy, an urban Whole Foods, an urban Trader Joes, an urban Walgreens, an urban Bed, Bath & Beyond, on and on and on....

I do NOT support an urban Wal-Mart as I do not support Wal-Mart in general. Wal-Mart is the company that will open a suburban store, only to open a newer one a few years later one block away, and then an even newer store, a few years later, another few blocks away. The national retail landscape is littered with closed Wal-Mart locations....closed for no other reason than a newer Wal-Mart located nearby. Wal-Mart is the number one retailer that contributes to brownfields. Sorry, but this company has no respect for the public.....they are simply bottom dollar feeders.

[vicupstate]

While you have a point gsupstate, Walmart is not the only retailer that follows that pattern. If it were, McAllister Square would still be a mall, and Greenville Mall would not be a largely vacant parcel of land. Neither one had a Walmart at any time, yet both fell to sprawl-mania.

At least with this action, Walmart is returning to areas that previously had been forsaken for retail.

[gs3]

While you have a point gsupstate, Walmart is not the only retailer that follows that pattern. If it were, McAllister Square would still be a mall, and Greenville Mall would not be a largely vacant parcel of land. Neither one had a Walmart at any time, yet both fell to sprawl-mania.

Not exactly an accurate comparison, as neither mall was a decision by a specific company (like Wal-Mart), based completely on moving a few blocks away to increase the parking lot size and build a new store the way Wal-Mart does. Mall failures are based on numerous factors, one being competition, two being that traditional malls overall are somewhat of a dying way to shop, demographics, multiple company decisions, etc, etc, etc.

Wal-Mart purposely and single handedly makes the decision to create their numerous brownfields.

Thank you but no. They need to stay out of beautiful downtown Greenville. If they want to open in a depressed area on Buncombe, NEAR downtown, fine, but in downtown, no.

[krazeeboi]

I hope this was just the first example you could think of, and you're not suggesting that we use Atlanta as our model for urban growth...

For recent modern urban infill, absolutely. Sounds like swu_BA_student was referring specifically to Atlantic Station which received the EPA's 2004 Phoenix Award as the Best National Brownfield Redevelopment and the Sierra Club's 2005 America's Best New Development award. It's an excellent example of an urban mixed-use development.

[mallguy]

Not exactly an accurate comparison, as neither mall was a decision by a specific company (like Wal-Mart), based completely on moving a few blocks away to increase the parking lot size and build a new store the way Wal-Mart does.

Actually, McAlister Square's failure was largely due to "a decision by a specific company...based completely on moving a few blocks away to increase the parking lot size and build a new store..."

In McAlister Square's case, that company was Dillard's. The mall struggled on for a few more years, but it went from being a solid #2 in the market and a decently performing mall to a distant #3, headed to deadmalls.com.

For everyone bashing an urban Wal-Mart, as I've posted, go to White Plains, NY. The urban Wal-Mart there is diagonally across from a Barnes & Noble/Target complex and a block or so north of a Ritz-Carlton residential tower (with a BLT Steak restaurant in the bottom), and three blocks away from a Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom-anchored mall.

[GvilleSC]

For recent modern urban infill, absolutely. Sounds like swu_BA_student was referring specifically to Atlantic Station which received the EPA's 2004 Phoenix Award as the Best National Brownfield Redevelopment and the Sierra Club's 2005 America's Best New Development award. It's an excellent example of an urban mixed-use development.

Atlantic Station is great INSIDE of Atlantic Station. It's not connected well to the rest of Midtown, and 17th Street is ridiculously intimidating (much less possible to cross; it has 2 crosswalks over a 5 block section of 6 lanes). Some of it has to do with the site.

[krazeeboi]

Atlantic Station is great INSIDE of Atlantic Station. It's not connected well to the rest of Midtown, and 17th Street is ridiculously intimidating (much less possible to cross; it has 2 crosswalks over a 5 block section of 6 lanes). Some of it has to do with the site.

It was the best possible outcome given how constrained that site is; it's pretty hard to be connected to the rest of Midtown when you're up against the Downtown Connector. The development is well connected to the adjacent neighborhood, however.

[Greenville]

For everyone bashing an urban Wal-Mart, as I've posted, go to White Plains, NY. The urban Wal-Mart there is diagonally across from a Barnes & Noble/Target complex and a block or so north of a Ritz-Carlton residential tower (with a BLT Steak restaurant in the bottom), and three blocks away from a Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom-anchored mall.

Funny you posted this, because I was in White Plains last night and noticed the "urban" Walmart. I thought about how out of place it seemed, and how I would hate to see something like that in downtown Greenville.

[mallguy]

Funny you posted this, because I was in White Plains last night and noticed the "urban" Walmart. I thought about how out of place it seemed, and how I would hate to see something like that in downtown Greenville.

I trust that you noticed that there has been zero "spillover" of low-end stores due to the Wal-Mart; to the contrary, I trust that you noticed that the Wal-Mart is surrounded by higher-end developments. ETA: and I trust that you noticed that the Wal-Mart is a former Sears and that the only thing on the exterior of the building that changed is the store name.

Thus I'm not sure what's so bad about "something like that".

Also, for everyone, there WAS a downtown Wal-Mart, briefly. The anchor at Bell Tower Mall (2nd level, on the side of the movie theater- now a courthouse or something) was a chain called Edwards, based out of Charleston. Wal-Mart bought the chain and changed its name, and then it closed.

Edited November 9, 2010 by mallguy