The State of Downtown Retail

[gs3]

I hope they do a better job of addressing Augusta than Walgreens did. Their current set-up is fine if they just reproduce that. Although, moving it closer to the street and putting the parking in the back with a mix of uses would phenomenal.

From what I've heard, it will be good. Right up to the sidewalk...all parking behind. Two floors up from Augusta and one basement level down, for a total of three.

[gman430]

From what I've heard, it will be good. Right up to the sidewalk...all parking behind. Two floors up from Augusta and one basement level down, for a total of three.

Do you know who the developer is? Thanks.

[GvilleSC]

From what I've heard, it will be good. Right up to the sidewalk...all parking behind. Two floors up from Augusta and one basement level down, for a total of three.

Wow, that would be incredible! The development that has the Starbucks, Zoe's, Greenville First, etc was laid out pretty well. Something like what you describe being directly across the street would be fantastic! Augusta Street has such great bones for this type of development.

[GVLbikeNboard]

I heard a rumor at one time that they were trying to acquire the Duncan Hardware Store on Augusta to tear down but it fell through.

Duncan's is still open for business, so unless they were trying to shut it down and tear it down I don't see that happening for a while.

[GvilleSC]

Duncan's is still open for business, so unless they were trying to shut it down and tear it down I don't see that happening for a while.

And, Duncan's has good urban form. I'd hate to see any of the storefronts that are against the sidewalk torn down for the sake of anything, even Chickfila.

[GvilleSC]

I completed my Christmas shopping this morning at the Dark Corner Distillery and the Greenville shop. Both have great offerings!

[goodbye]

I completed my Christmas shopping this morning at the Dark Corner Distillery and the Greenville shop. Both have great offerings!

What "Greenville shop?" Are you referring to the temporary shop in the Westin Poinsett next to Nose Dive? I initially thought you were referring to Greenville Beer Exchange, which is a great place as well.

[GvilleSC]

What "Greenville shop?" Are you referring to the temporary shop in the Westin Poinsett next to Nose Dive? I initially thought you were referring to Greenville Beer Exchange, which is a great place as well.

Yea, the one at the Westin. They have some awesome stuff in there!

[gman430]

New restaurant from Larkins opening in former Hot Dog King spot in Spring 2012.

[Greenville]

New restaurant from Larkins opening in former Hot Dog King spot in Spring 2012.

Yes! This is great! I look forward to seeing what they do with the space.

[StrangeCock]

Wonderful...another overpriced restaurant downtown.

Chick-fil-a or die.

[GvilleSC]

Wonderful...another overpriced restaurant downtown.

Chick-fil-a or die.

I hope they do a good bit of work to the building.

[RiverWalker]

New restaurant from Larkins opening in former Hot Dog King spot in Spring 2012.

Although it is nice to hear that the old Hot Dog King space won't remain empty for long, I would have preferred that the nondescript, old, single-story building be replaced completely, preferably with a multi-story mixed-use structure, perhaps combined with development of the adjacent parking lot. That whole chunk of land between Soby's and Broad Street and extending along Broad to over to Falls Street just begs to be revitalized with an impressive new development. Oh, the possibilities.

[gman430]

Well, Mojito's has either closed or they're renovating again. Seems like they shut down every three months only to reopen again a month later. What a weird establishment.

Edited December 31, 2011 by citylife

[gman430]

Looks like Atlanta Bread Company's space has been leased. Available sign is gone and construction workers were gutting the interior of the space.

[GvilleSC]

That space seems too large for a Pita Pit, but I'm still anxiously awaiting their arrival...

Edited January 11, 2012 by GvilleSC

[StrangeCock]

I will assume each new downtown development is a Chick-fil-A until the day that one finally materializes. I mean, there's still a chance One is actually going to stand for One Huge Chick-fil-A.

Right?

[GvilleSC]

I will assume each new downtown development is a Chick-fil-A until the day that one finally materializes. I mean, there's still a chance One is actually going to stand for One Huge Chick-fil-A.

Right?

Chickfila would be nice to have somewhere off of Main Street, IMO. Not sure if it's big enough, but the empty retail spot on Washington Street next to Sticky Fingers would be good, or in the ground floor of 100 East. McBee Station wouldn't be a bad choice either.

[HomerJay]

I see they're doing work on the retail space under/adjacent to the Hyatt. I'm wondering what they'll put there, given that there aren't many (if any) entrances from the street.

[HomerJay]

I'm reaffirming my vote for NO CHAIN RESTAURANTS ON MAIN STREET. There are a million other Chick-fil-A's in the world and no reason to undermine the integrity of downtown Greenville by putting one there. I'd be fine with one on a side street, but not on the main stretch.

Relatedly, I also don't understand the obsession with getting national chain stores downtown. I'll admit that reasonable arguments can be made in some circumstances. For example, Barnes and Noble would be a good addition to Main Street. Not as good as an independent bookseller, but these are difficult times, so I'll take what I can get. In general, however, keep that junk in the mall where it belongs.

[mallguy]

I'm reaffirming my vote for NO CHAIN RESTAURANTS ON MAIN STREET. There are a million other Chick-fil-A's in the world and no reason to undermine the integrity of downtown Greenville by putting one there. I'd be fine with one on a side street, but not on the main stretch.

Relatedly, I also don't understand the obsession with getting national chain stores downtown. I'll admit that reasonable arguments can be made in some circumstances. For example, Barnes and Noble would be a good addition to Main Street. Not as good as an independent bookseller, but these are difficult times, so I'll take what I can get. In general, however, keep that junk in the mall where it belongs.

There are already plenty of chain restaurants on Main, and there long have been. Quizno's, Subway, Marble Slab Creamery (or whatever the ice cream place is), City Tavern and, before, Fuddrucker's, Atlanta Bread Co., etc. There was also a Chick-fil-A before, in the Daniel Building.

Why get national chains downtown? Because they are the stores of choice for most people and draw more customers than most mom & pop stores do, and they pay higher rents than mom and pop stores usually can, which means more money available to invest in building upkeep, renovations and appearances. The more national chains there are downtown, the more customers will be available for all stores downtown- both mom & pop and chains.

Plus national chains have deeper pockets for advertising, for survival during "drought" periods, etc., and a "prestige" national chain will help attract other stores. Few mom & pop stores can do those things, all of which help downtown as a whole.

B&N isn't as good as an independent bookseller? Every B&N I've been to is nicer than the run-down Open Book at Pleasantburg Shopping Center was, for example, and since I now have a Nook, I'll go to a B&N over a competitor.

Keep in mind that the mom & pop store image of downtown is a recent thing; until around 1980, downtown consisted of large chain department stores, smaller mall-type stores and just a few local stores. The mom & pop stores arrived downtown only when the national chains left.

Edited January 12, 2012 by mallguy

[HomerJay]

You make some reasonable points. But, I still maintain that downtown is a desirable destination not because of the chain restaurants, but despite them. Where is Fuddrucker's now? Why did Atlanta Bread Co go out of business? I'd like to think it's because people realize that you can get better sandwiches and burgers from other places that do not serve institutional food.

I also think you overstate the value of the national chains. They are the destination of choice because that's the choice that most people have. One negative of the higher rents that the national chains pay it creates a barrier to entry for innovative startups. You say that the national chains can weather a drought. Then why did they leave? Because they have absolutely no loyalty to a city or a neighborhood, that's why. I wasn't here during the time you describe, but I know what followed. I'd hate to see that familiar cycle where interesting independents revitalize an area only to see the national chains swoop down and push them out thanks to their deep pockets. As I intimated, a few chains might be appropriate. But, there's a definite tipping point where a neighborhood character will change and then it's not easy to go back without enduring that bust phase.

A lot of what I'm concerned with is the intangible quality that independents bring. According to your logic, we should have the 'most popular' restaurants and chains fill Main Street. What would that look like? I'll tell you what it would look like - every strip mall in every city in the country. You seem to have different associations with independents than I do. In the case of independent booksellers, while you think Open Book, I think of Powells in Portland, a bookstore that people seek out and identify with the city. It adds character that a B&N can never offer. Maybe I'm naive, but I like to believe that our consumer culture can change for the better and that people, if given good choices, will opt for interesting, non-chain businesses more often than not.

When I look at the great cities of the country and the world, I see unique neighborhoods that are identifiable with those cities. There might be some national chains, but they don't define the neighborhoods. In Greenville, I would support a downtown chain only if it offers something that is not available in other parts of the city or by more independent businesses. Developing a vibrant neighborhood based on independents (and local/regional chains) takes work, but the payoff is greater than the alternative route of chasing what is already established.

[mallguy]

For higher-end dining, I prefer non-chains. (Is there such a thing as high-end chain dining anyhow?) But for retail, I prefer chains.

Having a downtown full of chains would look like King Street in Charleston--one of the Southeast's most popular shopping streets-- or downtown Princeton, NJ, which is stunningly attractive. There is plenty of undeveloped land downtown and in neighboring areas. Non-chains will have plenty of space, although they probably wouldn't have the prime locations.

I live in NYC, and the most popular and desirable shopping streets are all full of chains. Broadway in SoHo, 57th Street, Columbus Circle, Fifth Avenue, Madison Avenue, etc. all are. The non-chains are still generally prevalent, but the start-ups are more in cheaper-rent areas such as Williamsburgh, Brooklyn.

And why did chains leave downtown Greenville? Because the department stores closed and all stores moved out- chains and the few non-chains that were there. The mom & pop stores returned first, because rents were low. Now that customer traffic has increased, chains will consider downtown.

I also don't think that mom & pop stores alone create a desirable ambiance. Greenville Mall in its final days was populated by mom & pop stores only; the chains had left. How desirable was that? Great architecture, trees, well-designed sidewalks and public spaces, etc., whether or not the stores are chains, make an attractive downtown. Check out Princeton, NJ, Greenwich, CT, Westport, CT, etc.- all chain-filled downtowns, and all very attractive and very popular places to shop.

Let the free market (i.e., dollars of all citizens) decide what stores are downtown (although I'd fully support government intervening to spruce up downtown's infrastructure and public spaces so that it is an attractive and pleasant area). Don't restrict what I can buy, and where, based on your own preferences of what stores are desirable.

Edited January 12, 2012 by mallguy

[HomerJay]

As a native New Yorker, I have a different take on your description of the city. Those areas you describe as the most popular and desirable shopping streets are the high end shopping streets. If you're a high end shopper, well done. That might be the crux of our disagreement. I'm not and I generally don't shop in those areas when I'm in the city. Maybe Soho before all the national chains moved in an removed all that was interesting about the area. Give me the Village and East Village any day. And don't try to tell me that Greenwich Village is not a popular shopping area. What I want is a downtown Greenville for the non-Tiffany crowd, something interesting and unique and not just functional. We have Woodruff Road and the Haywood Mall - why duplicate that downtown? King Street is an interesting case. I don't shop on that lower part, but I think it fits into the fabric of the city. Those high end stores don't dominate all of Charleston, just that section.

Your free market argument is just a distraction. I never mentioned anything about government intervention in what stores move downtown. I'm merely expressing my preferences. I'm not trying to restrict what you can buy any more than you are restricting me by expressing your preference for national chains. But, the character of downtown does have real effects on what our consumer choices are, which is why I don't want to see downtown become just another street of the same old shops. If there were more side street locations off of Main, it might be a different scenario. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much room for coexistence, so I vote for independents.

Are you really telling me that you think Subway and Fuddruckers is the best you can do for sandwiches and burgers? Both are okay chains, but I can name probably half a dozen better burgers in downtown Greenville. You're not one of those people who buys pizza from Sbarro's in the city are you? You of all people should have a good appreciation for non-national chains. Why eat at the Olive Garden when you can go to any of a thousand better Italian restaurants? Chains offer predictability through standardization. I think some messiness and uncertainty is essential for good cities.

[StrangeCock]

I would love to have a local alternative to something like Chick-fil-A, but there isn't one. Finding a $5 lunch downtown is nearly impossible. Sometimes it seems like no one in Greenville wants to open a restaurant without pretense. Street vendors are run off. The Hot Dog King was run out of downtown. Look at Nose Dive (which I really do like). It can't just serve good food. No. It has to be a "gastropub." Yeesh. Their $8 burgers/sandwiches are good. But sometimes a $4 one can be just as rewarding.

Downtown Greenville is not a gated community. The lack of a GOOD bargain lunch is a major hole...and a huge opportunity.