The State of Downtown Retail

[vicupstate]

Nobody ran Hot Dog King out of town. They simply couldn't make a profit.

[gman430]

I see they're doing work on the retail space under/adjacent to the Hyatt. I'm wondering what they'll put there, given that there aren't many (if any) entrances from the street.

Provencia will be moving from inside the Hyatt to the courtyard area that fronts Main Street. Studio 220 will also call this area home. Not sure if any other tenants are lined up yet.

[gman430]

Tender Greens Soups Salads and Sandwiches is now open next to Mellow Mushroom.

[mallguy]

As a native New Yorker, I have a different take on your description of the city. Those areas you describe as the most popular and desirable shopping streets are the high end shopping streets. ...

You of all people should have a good appreciation for non-national chains. Why eat at the Olive Garden when you can go to any of a thousand better Italian restaurants? Chains offer predictability through standardization. I think some messiness and uncertainty is essential for good cities.

34th Street is definitely not high end- anchored by Macy's on one end, a bad mall on the other and with Old Navy and cheap jewelry stores in between, it's definitely downscale. Apart from 57th Street and Madison Avenue, the other streets I mentioned may have some high-end stores, but they have plenty of non-upscale ones.

You may wish to re-read my post about restaurants--I specifically state that for higher-end dining, I do not prefer chains.

No, my free market argument is not a distraction. Greenville is not Portland, OR (which is a beautiful city; I've been there), or NY, where activists run government and do things such as keeping out chains and putting restrictions on what stores can sell. (Ever try to buy beer at Target in Manhattan?) I don't want that in Greenville. If an individual property owner does not rent his/her building to a chain because he doesn't like them, fine, but I don't want the "keep downtown weird" crowd running the show.

Downtown does need retail and other attractions that are not in other parts of town. It has great public spaces such as Falls Park, and it's much more aesthetically attractive than, say, Haywood Road. And yes, it needs stores that aren't elsewhere in town. But if those stores are chains that aren't elsewhere in town (e.g., Anthropologie, coming soon), I think it's great. If the goal is mom & pop stores, since they allegedly don't duplicate retail in other parts of town...driven down Augusta Road lately?

Edited January 13, 2012 by mallguy

[GvilleSC]

The Journal's TBA's this week rumor a running store to be opening somewhere downtown. Downtown Greenville must have more active sports stores per capita than anywhere else in the Carolinas... I like it, though!

[apaladin]

Nobody ran Hot Dog King out of town. They simply couldn't make a profit.

They had been there a long time. I think they were just ready to retire. If profits was the problem you would think they would have been open more than 15 hours a week.

[RiverWalker]

Our first glimpses of the restaurant to be opened in the former Hot Dog King space are now available, in the form of an applicaiton for approval of exterior changes to the building. http://www.greenvillesc.gov/PlanningZoning/PlanningApplications/Applications/2012/FEBRUARY/DesignReviewBoard/02-02-2012/CA-12-24-209SouthMainStreet.pdf Similar to several other storefront dining spots, the entrance will be moved back into the building to allow for outdoor table space that won't interfere with pedestrian traffic but will allow al fresco dining even during inclement weather. The architectural renderings suggest that the new eatery might be named "Marks."

[RiverWalker]

The retail space facing Main Street in the downtown CVS building appears to have been leased, or is in the process of being leased. A Certificate of Appropriateness application has been submitted for new signage on behalf of Fifth Third Bank, a Michigan-based financial institution with about ten offices in Western North Carolina. The Greenvillle office, the first in South Carolina for Fifth Third Bank, apparently will establish mortgage operations initially. http://www.greenvillesc.gov/PlanningZoning/PlanningApplications/Applications/2012/FEBRUARY/DesignReviewBoard/02-02-2012/CA-12-23-33SouthMainStreet.pdf

[GvilleSC]

I like the upgrades for the old Hot Dog King space!

The retail space facing Main Street in the downtown CVS building appears to have been leased, or is in the process of being leased. A Certificate of Appropriateness application has been submitted for new signage on behalf of Fifth Third Bank, a Michigan-based financial institution with about ten offices in Western North Carolina. The Greenvillle office, the first in South Carolina for Fifth Third Bank, apparently will establish mortgage operations initially. http://www.greenvill...hMainStreet.pdf

So, they're occupying one storefront and the upstair office space? It's great to have the office space off the market!

[RiverWalker]

So, they're occupying one storefront and the upstair office space? It's great to have the office space off the market!

I couldn't tell from the application itself, but I was able to find more on the KDS Properties web site. "The bank will occupy approximately 4,304 sf of office space comprising the entire second floor of the CVS building located at 31 South Main Street." (from http://www.kdsproperties.com/news-articles/fifth-third-bank-signs-lease-for-31-s-main-street)

[GvilleSC]

I couldn't tell from the application itself, but I was able to find more on the KDS Properties web site. "The bank will occupy approximately 4,304 sf of office space comprising the entire second floor of the CVS building located at 31 South Main Street." (from http://www.kdsproper...1-s-main-street)

NICE! Great find!

Does anyone know anything about the running store that the Greenville Journal is rumoring?

[greenvilleguy]

Our first glimpses of the restaurant to be opened in the former Hot Dog King space are now available, in the form of an applicaiton for approval of exterior changes to the building. http://www.greenvill...hMainStreet.pdf Similar to several other storefront dining spots, the entrance will be moved back into the building to allow for outdoor table space that won't interfere with pedestrian traffic but will allow al fresco dining even during inclement weather. The architectural renderings suggest that the new eatery might be named "Marks."

If you look at the picture showing the outside of the building, it shows a glass roll up door. Then if you look at the floorplan it shows a bar that goes all the way to the front of the building with barstools. 4 of the barstools are on the patio area as if you will be able to sit at the bar both inside and outside with the glass door rolled up. That will be awesome!

[Gville2012]

If you look at the picture showing the outside of the building, it shows a glass roll up door. Then if you look at the floorplan it shows a bar that goes all the way to the front of the building with barstools. 4 of the barstools are on the patio area as if you will be able to sit at the bar both inside and outside with the glass door rolled up. That will be awesome!

Saw this also... would Greenville allow for an indoor/outdoor bar? Seems like it could lead to spilling out onto the streets. I hope they do because it could be a cooool addition to DT.

[johnpro318]

If you look at the picture showing the outside of the building, it shows a glass roll up door. Then if you look at the floorplan it shows a bar that goes all the way to the front of the building with barstools. 4 of the barstools are on the patio area as if you will be able to sit at the bar both inside and outside with the glass door rolled up. That will be awesome!

This is similar to a place I ate at in Asheville. It was called Lexington Avenue Brewery and it was a great experience being able to actively watch the street and crowds while you eat.

[RiverWalker]

Saw this also... would Greenville allow for an indoor/outdoor bar? Seems like it could lead to spilling out onto the streets. I hope they do because it could be a cooool addition to DT.

I doubt it would be much different from when Soby's opens up all the doors across the front of its bar area.

[Gville2012]

I doubt it would be much different from when Soby's opens up all the doors across the front of its bar area.

True... but in that case Soby's actual bar is still in the inside portion and there are tables infront of the windows facing main. In this the bar will literally be on the outside(with some tables acting as a buffer). I am guessing more of a restaurant than a late night spot though. Either way... I hope it works.

[RiverWalker]

True... but in that case Soby's actual bar is still in the inside portion and there are tables infront of the windows facing main. In this the bar will literally be on the outside(with some tables acting as a buffer).

From a licensing perspective, the bar will be well within the perimeter of the bulding footprint and thus would be considered "interior," I guess, even though it can be opened to the outside air. This design, by the way, seems to follow the trend in recent years to take greater advantage of Greenville's generally agreeable weather by blending the traditional concepts of "inside" and "outside." (Think the movable glass roof and walls of Carolina Alehouse as well as the several storefront eateries that already have been renovated to move the front wall back to allow covered "outdoor" seating within the actual footprint of the licensed establishment, as mentioned in my original post.) This layout, however, takes that blending to a whole new level.

I am guessing more of a restaurant than a late night spot though.

Maybe, maybe not. The last page of the application shows a rendering of the logo that reads: "marks on main {sodEmoji.|} best burgers & fries {sodEmoji.|} shakes - wine - beer - drinks." Clearly not targeting the fine dining crowd, I'd say. (It is curious to note that there appears to be a period in the logo between "mar" and "ks" so that it reads "mar.ks" in red. I wonder if that is intentional or if that is an artifact.)

[RiverWalker]

I'm reaffirming my vote for NO CHAIN RESTAURANTS ON MAIN STREET. There are a million other Chick-fil-A's in the world and no reason to undermine the integrity of downtown Greenville by putting one there. I'd be fine with one on a side street, but not on the main stretch.

Relatedly, I also don't understand the obsession with getting national chain stores downtown. I'll admit that reasonable arguments can be made in some circumstances. For example, Barnes and Noble would be a good addition to Main Street. Not as good as an independent bookseller, but these are difficult times, so I'll take what I can get. In general, however, keep that junk in the mall where it belongs.

The Sonoma, California, City Council is currently pondering whether to enact a temporary moratorium or even a permanent ordinance barring retail chains from locating in the downtown area. The irony is that such a move could prevent giant upscale cookware retailer Williams-Sonoma from reopening on the site of its first store. http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20120114/ARTICLES/120119677

Williams-Sonoma is an example of the kind of upscale chain that should be welcomed in any downtown area, including Main Street in downtown Greenville: a destination store, much like Mast General Store (which certainly qualifies as a chain, albeit a regional one). A store of the W-S calibre draws consumers of the type that Greenville wants - those with money to spend up and down Main Street. A business that attracts people to Main Street is much more desirable than one that merely provides services those who are already downtown. On the other hand, I do not get excited about the mundane stores that can be found on almost any street corner in America, a category that incudes factory-food franchises like Chick-Fil-A. It's not the organizational structure of a business that matters but the uniqueness and desirability as perceived by people who have many choices as to where they want to shop. So, while the new CVS on Main Street may be beneficial to people who live and work in downtown, it does very little to attract people from outside the downtown area, who can travel to any one of more than a dozen other CVS locations within a five-mile radius or the dozen or so equivalent Walgreens stores within the same area. (Personally, I prefer to go to the Publix just a couple of blocks away, even though the new CVS is closer to my office; I can get more done in just one stop.)

[mallguy]

I agree completely- higher-end chains in particular, or chains in general that don't have other locations in town, are ideal.

Re: no chain restaurants on Main? Not that Greenville is getting one, but that would exclude restaurants such as Le Cirque, Jean-Georges (part of a chain run by celebrity chef Jean-Georges Vongerichten), any Alain Ducasse, Mario Batali, Danny Meyer or David Bouley restaurants...and even Morton's.

See a sample of high-end chain restaurants listed here:

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/how-danny-meyer-is-going-global-01112012_page_2.html

[Birdbrain]

I like the idea of no chains, but if you live downtown, need to grab something quick; you can't beat hitting Subway and getting on your way. (Not promiting them, just an example.) Unfortunately, reality and our wish list will never meet. Walk down Main and count the chains. Geez, in the past couple of weeks - I ate at several places that would have to be run out of town: Subway, Bertolos, Grouchos, Wild Wings, Carolina Ale house, Mellow Mushroom -- and those are just a very few off the top of my pointy head.... (heck no I can't cook!) :-)

[gman430]

[GvilleSC]

I LOVE the difference that the new paint color makes for the old Rio space.

[gman430]

Catama Bar and Grill for old Mojitos space.

[GvilleSC]

Catama Bar and Grill for old Mojitos space.

Is this by the same owners?

[gman430]

Manna Deli has closed on Coffee Street.

Is this by the same owners?

Not sure.