Housing Prices

[Liamlunchtray]

I think one of the issues with the Arts community in Providence is that they are at times so wrapped up in being "real" artists that they arent creating anything self sufficient. Ft Thunder was a good example. It was an amazing space that did amazing things and will be looked back historically as an important "happening" in the world of music. Providence will be known for the contributions of Ft Thunder for years to come, and it was a real shame that the whole thing went down the way it did. That being said - Why where they not trying to buy their spaces? Why did they never turn it into a legit licensed and documented space like AS220? Why did they not find a building to purchase? I think that the underground arts scene in Providence has frequently shot itself in the foot. After Ft Thunder went down everything moved to Olneyville, which is great - Lots of space, cheap rent, etc. But once again we have the same problem - Lots of people crowding into unlicenced unregulated buildings and then everyone gets booted out in the cold in the middle of winter. Please keep in mind that these are generalizations and I know that there have been a few projects where buildings have been purchased and rehabbed - Which is awesome! Until there is more of this the arts people are going to be at the mercy of their landlords, but for the most part its their own damn fault.

There is an awful lot of wallowing in self pity, and it frequently outpaces any organized forward momentum. I also see a lot of this type of behavior from people who goto school here, stay in providence doing the starving artist routine for a couple years, whine about being pushed around by development, and then move out. They arent doing the city a favor by subjecting us to a couple years of halfassed performance art and then leaving. If you want to make things better, be the next Bert Crenca. Lay down some roots and make a change.

Liam

[ArtInRuins]

This is a very complex issue, and everybody is making well informed, and well articulated points. This has been a subject on my mind, and lots of other people's, and I will invite them all to the forum to chime in. I believe a diverse population (race, sexual preference, income, job) will make a city viable for the long term. That said, I must agree with Miriam a little.

I moved here in 1999. I grew up in North Smithfield, went to school in CT for four years, worked in Boston for 2, and then my wife wanted to go to grad school at RISD. We bought a 2 family house off Camp Street for $85,000. We put more money into it getting it up to speed. She went to school, I started my business out of an extra room, and tenants helped pay the mortgage. All I know for sure is that I could never have done that now, five years later. That house is assessed for $320,000 now. Without the house, I wouldn't have started a business, I would have worked for one. In fact, with prices like that, we wouldn't have moved here.

Do I want to see Providence move forward: yes. Do I want to see more investment and interest in the city: yes (the real question may still be how much interest can we support). Do I want to see people with money move in: yes, because we need someone to support the arts scene, which goes beyond just AS220 (PPAC, RISD, shops on the West Side, restaurants, businesses like mine). Do I want to see the whole city full of consumers, not producers: Absolutely not. Again, a mixed culture of consumers and producers of all races and backgrounds, all economic strata... idealistic, I know, but not completely out of reach. Maybe, just maybe, these new developments are bringing Providence into more of a balance of all these forces.

And FYI: AS220 is expanding again... they will be converting a building on Washington Street into more affordable live/work units, possibly with more dorm style (shared kitchen) floors, but also with private suites. A bar tenant will occupy the ground floor. Their cafe and performance space on Empire Street will be expanding as well. They too would have a much harder time buying space downtown now; luckily, they bought their space 20 years ago. But what amazing organization is forced to look elsewhere in today's market?

[eltron]

Well, since nobody else has done it...

Welcome to the board Miriam!

I for one appreciate your viewpoints. I think you raise some very important issues here that ARE to a certain extent steamrolled and gussied up by the excitement surrounding all of the new development going on. I think this particular discussion is pretty enlightening - I think discourse on some of the underlying complexities of all these new developments is to an extent ignored in the name of "progress," and at least as long as people are talking about it, there will be some acknowledgement of the deep implications the projects have on many people, some of it not very good.

That said, I think everyone else has brought up some very valid points. Gentrification is not necessarily a dirty word. Any city is a living, breathing thing, and change is part of its lifecycle. Was it nice when, if you were brave and averse to sketchiness, you could live for next to nothing in rough neighborhoods in cool spaces? Sure, but for the same reasons it attracted the trailblazers in the first place, it attracted people with vision and more importantly, capital, that wanted to put down roots and make that place better. Liam said it. If the folks at Fort Thunder had the vision, they would've said, hey, we don't own this building, people just like us in Boston and New York in the EXACT same situation were kicked out on the street five-ten years ago, maybe we should do something about it, start negotiating with the owner ourselves or start looking for a building we can call our own...

But of course, hindsight is 20-20. We really do need to look at the affordabilty issue very, very closely. As I have said before, Providence is now in dire need of an inclusionary zoning ordinance that would ensure affordable units get built to counter the displacement that is occuring with all of the new high-end development. Part of this could and should include an artist's live/work component. In fact, with the City's zoning ordinance currently undergoing review, NOW is the time to call or write the mayor and your city councilor to encourage their backing of an inclusionary zoning ordinance!

[Cotuit]

Well, since nobody else has done it...

Welcome to the board Miriam!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed! Sorry Miriam, welcome to UP!

It may seem that we are all ganging up against you, but I think I speak for everyone when I say we all very much identify with where you are coming from and and we all agree that a thriving arts community is vital for the future of Providence.

[Liamlunchtray]

We really do need to look at the affordabilty issue very, very closely. As I have said before, Providence is now in dire need of an inclusionary zoning ordinance that would ensure affordable units get built to counter the displacement that is occuring with all of the new high-end development. Part of this could and should include an artist's live/work component. In fact, with the City's zoning ordinance currently undergoing review, NOW is the time to call or write the mayor and your city councilor to encourage their backing of an inclusionary zoning ordinance!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YES YES!!! Making sure that low income living/working spaces are REQUIRED in new development is key!!! Give them tax incentives! Make it worth their while! But by all means make the developers do it!!! It will ease the low income housing shortage, and will reduce the amount of folks being displaced in gentrified neighborhoods. Combining low income folks in mixed income developments can help a myriad of social woes (gangs, drug dealing, etc). Keeping low income people in projects that are nothing more than po'folk warehouses creates these type of problems ion the first place.

Liam

[guerrillaRock]

i believe with art in ruins that we must see balanced improvements on all sides of this matter. i however am still saddened by people's blatant disrespect for real living people like cotuit. "There was nothing desirable about Olneyville or the Promenade before the developers came in and started rehabbing the mill structures. The only thing desireable was that there were nearly abandoned buildings that artists could squat in for little or no money." really how dare you, that is so low of you! and i really want to swear my mouth off, but i'll refrain. there is plently desirable! and on a national, even international level! you must look to the future, many young artists look to providence as a mecca, and that is sure something worth trying to work/look foward to developing! a few articles in the mainstream media lime light have helped this increasingly. and there are young people out there that are extremely interested in live/work space, and buying space to renovate...but first you need some initial affordable housing, or these people coming to the city will just end homeless like they have in the past, and homeless rates will just increase when it is already at a high. some of the things attracting people here in the first place is ONLEYVILLE, is that Fort Thunder had existed, that people were doing living in mills illegal or not. last winter the olneyville evictions really brought things to a national awareness in the underground, people came out from everywhere to try and hell, people wanted to try and buy there spaces, but i am sorry there is deffinately alot of curruption involved too. the idea that they could improve the city, make legal spaces, once they worked hard enough to do so, that apeals to alot of these people who want to move in come in. i'm still very young myself, but I ran a homemade record label/artist collective myself starting with others midway through high school, and the word i know is out there, i have had other people e-mailing me weekly, almost daily about this city. and now i am at uri and i run a radio show entiled guerrillaRock that focuses on this city's music, along with the general other music in the underground, and i have gotten calls from listeners online as far as chicago, montanta, and california about our city, and this music. and i know i don't know alot about this on an economic level, but i am trying, i am starting, i'd love to start something like bert at as220 has,...but the internatial youth art/music underground (i'm saying kids from early teens 15 to the 25 mark) really looks to providence as a vibrant arts city, and then they get here and see all this promise disapear in front of their eyes. here is a few sites that have brought huge attention to the city for these young people. i'll just list a few:

A Spin Mag Article Focusing On The Onleyville Noise Rock scene among other things:

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:WyxOM...+of+noise&hl=en

Pitchforkmedia.com article:

http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/interviews/m...03/index2.shtml

Phoenix Article

http://www.providencephoenix.com/features/...ts/03599594.asp

And so many other things...but the fact is, this city is appealing, and the type of lifestyle in olneyville that was happening was appealing to people, just check how many people from all over have recently joined the local art's community forums at lotsofnoise.com. people want to do their art coming in/into this city either way they can make it happen, illegal or legal, and they want to, i know they do, so just please take this into consideration, it is something worth trying to develop on. thank you.

i am open to criticism.

peace.

[Cotuit]

i however am still saddened by people's blatant disrespect for real living people like cotuit. "There was nothing desirable about Olneyville or the Promenade before the developers came in and started rehabbing the mill structures. The only thing desireable was that there were nearly abandoned buildings that artists could squat in for little or no money." really how dare you, that is so low of you!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How dare I? Because it is true. I'm a real living person myself you know. I have a job, I struggle to make ends meet. I'm not going to be living in one of the luxury units downtown in a couple years. But anyone who thinks that the development going on in Olneyville today is a result of the arts scene there is mistaken. You're about as likely to get shot in Olneyville as you are to visit a gallery. The developers are taking a giant risk going in there. Shame on the artists for not buying their spaces when they had the chance.

I'd like to see the city and state do nearly anything it can to foster the arts community in the city. But I'm not allowing my tax money to go into a scene where artists chose to live a lifestyle of entitlement. Go to New York or Boston or LA and talk to the artists there, no one gave them anything.

I'm an art school drop out myself. Why did I drop out? Because I knew that I couldn't attain a level of living that I would be happy with by pursuing a career purely in art. I chose to make my money to support myself at a level that I personally feel comfortable outside of art. The artists in Providence are making a choice. They need to work to support themselves because ultimately they are the only ones who are responsible for themselves.

[guerrillaRock]

I actually want to apologize and just say that part of my post where i quoted cocuit was largly misdirected frustration. But one point I do want to still point out is that it is still was something faily desirable, what was going on in onleyville, I may know crap about everything else, but I am just starting to try and get involved, and help this city grow in the arts. Sincerely my apologies.

And on that note, I agree with you on many of your comments on this board also. Just for starters: "Shame on the artists for not buying their spaces when they had the chance. I'd like to see the city and state do nearly anything it can to foster the arts community in the city. But I'm not allowing my tax money to go into a scene where artists chose to live a lifestyle of entitlement."

I really have a huge belief, that there should have been more done if these people really wanted their lofts, etc by themselves, put there own support into it. And just because they lived there before, doesn't mean they should be entitled to it. But it isn't a bad idea to start things up in an area that is already famous for what was there before, as well as the rest of the city and state.

Yet again I'm just an 18 year old pushing out most likely crap ideas, because their goals are probably too lofty, but I at least still feel they hold some weight, however misguided they may be.

Peace.

[Cotuit]

I actually want to apologize and just say that part of my post where i quoted cotuit was largly misdirected frustration.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No worries, I'm just glad you refrained from swearing your mouth off.

But one point I do want to still emphasise is that it is still was something faily desirable, I may know crap about everything else, but I am just starting to try and get involved, and help this city grow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I do agree that it was and is desirable to a certain group of people, and those people do have something to add both economically, and especially, culturally to the city. And those people are important to the city. But they will be more important to the city when they can add more on the economic side. Current happenings certainly aren't the death knell for this scene, perhaps it can be a wake up call, and I think the loss of Fort Thunder prompting projects like Puente (?) prove that it was a wake up call.

I really have a huge belief, that there should have been more done if these people really wanted their lofts, etc by themselves, put there own support into it. And just because they lived there before, doesn't mean they should be entitled to it. But it isn't a bad idea to start things up in an area that is already famous for what was there before, as well as the rest of the city and state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The idea of squatters rights isn't totally ridiculous in and of itself. Amsterdam has squatter laws that allow art groups (or any group really) to occupy a space and at some point acheive ownership of it. I'm not sure of all the legalese of it, but it is something that is done in other places. I don't know if it could or would work in Rhode Island or under US property law.

I think in the long run it might be in artist's best interest to look to new construction, rather than occupying highly sought after loft space. I would support grants and tax schemes to encourage this if the artists had a money making business plan, and if the building would generate significant public interest to gentrify the neighbourhood it was in. I think government can work to keep arts spaces affordable for the good of attracting ancilliary businesses to the surrounding area.

[guerrillaRock]

i don't know if any one has heard about this they were trying it for a while, but wasn't some group, maybe miriam would know about this, but were they not trying to make a band/art house, that would bring neighborhood education/live/work/performance all together, somewhat joint with the city building from scratch? what happened to this?

[Cotuit]

I mentioned Puente in one of my posts up there.

Here's there website for anyone who hasn't heard of it.

[Cotuit]

If any of the artists popping in to join the disscussions would like to publicize upcoming events, gallery openings, gigs... feel free to post info in the Local Happenings thread.

[Cotuit]

YES YES!!! Making sure that low income living/working spaces are REQUIRED in new development is key!!! Give them tax incentives! Make it worth their while! But by all means make the developers do it!!! It will ease the low income housing shortage, and will reduce the amount of folks being displaced in gentrified neighborhoods. Combining low income folks in mixed income developments can help a myriad of social woes (gangs, drug dealing, etc).  Keeping low income people in projects that are nothing more than po'folk warehouses creates these type of problems ion the first place.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I agree that their are lots of creative things we can and should be doing and mandating to ensure that we have mixed income residential units spread throughout the city. I think it is very hard with these mill structures and maybe even more so with the buildings that Buff Chase is dealing with Downcity to make affordability work. They already are getting tax breaks and they still can't make it affordable to the lower-middleclass (me) and below. But as densely populated as Providence is, there are vast stretches of vacant land, much of it intermingled with current luxury developments where new construction can be built more affordably and ensure a mix of incomes can co-exist. I'm thinking of Snowe Street Downcity as a prime example. You have Buff Chase's luxury stuff at either end of Westminster and in-between you can build a ribbon of new construction on the current parking lots. The Jewelry District is chock-a-block with vacant lots. Federal Hill has a lot of vacant land off of Atwells, even right on Atwells. We're far from built-out around here.

[ArtInRuins]

A very active local message board on the Lots of Noise website posted a link to this discussion, and that is why UP is seeing some new young members, which I think is great. Here is the link to the message thread.

Lots of Noise is a great calendar page of music events, and local archive of local underground music. Not only that, they have a great message board with a different slant, and they were instrumental during the Olneyville Oak street evictions, in letting people know what was happening, who to talk to, how to appeal to the fire marshall, and then finally the reaction AFTER the evictions.

There's a lot going on on this board, and I think it reflects how heated these topics are. The Soho effect still works, and has been actively used by city planners for a decade or two now. And I mean city planners KNOW that it works, and use it to their advantage. If you ask me, Cornish used the idea to get people to live downtown, but the buzz worked so well, they didn't have to offer the units to pioneering artists; other people quickly stepped forward and wanted to live there instead, because of the promise of an artistic funky downcity.

There are other things that make a city like Providence vital. Artists help, but there are other factors, like small mom-and-pop business ownership. And posters... posters are the sign of a thriving scene, but the new downcity improvement district (Providence DID) threatens to sanitize the streets. AS220 and others have tried to convince them that posters are a self regulating communications tool for great performances, discussion groups, small theatre acts, and the like, but so far they have been slow to respond.

I think the buzz around what kind of people will be moving to Providence plays right into the question of "what kind of city do you want Providence to become?"

I think we need to think like good ole Buddy wanted us to: THINK BIG. Think idealistic. Nows the time. What's the plan, what kind of city do we want? We might just be able to steer the city now as these developments are in their infancy.

More public transportation? More bike paths? Better sidewalks? Better zoning? Development credits for affordable units? Less surface parking and more structures? More historic rehab or more new architecture? or both? More support for PPAC and AS220? Hit the universities up for taxes instead of burdening the rest of us? Amtrack in Olneyville?

As more and more people pay attention to this board, we might be surprised at what ideas can start to float around in the ether and effect change.

[Cotuit]

A very active local message board on the Lots of Noise website posted a link to this discussion, and that is why UP is seeing some new young members, which I think is great. Here is the link to the message thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll have to add a link to them under the arts & entertainment section of the City Profile.

And posters... posters are the sign of a thriving scene, but the new downcity improvement district (Providence DID) threatens to sanitize the streets. AS220 and others have tried to convince them that posters are a self regulating communications tool for great performances, discussion groups, small theatre acts, and the like, but so far they have been slow to respond.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a balance that needs to be struck with that kind of viral marketing. Eventually you end up with things like the Linux campaign in New York last year. They were spraypainting penguin logos on city sidewalks and the city was like: "hold on a minute." It's hard to say that it's OK for these low and no-profit ventures to be placarding the city, then trying to tell big business they can't. There should be designated zones for such. And local businesses like Tazza and Urban Kitchen can help too. Someone in the arts community (be it AS220 or someone else) needs to adopt these publicity zones as well. Regularly clearing out the stale posters, ensuring the posting board is maintained...

Aside from posting about events, we need some public art Downcity. It's supposed to be a fuinky hip neighbourhood but where are the sculptures, where are the murals, where are the street performers (OK, there's not enough traffic yet for a busker to make a living, but soon).

More public transportation? More bike paths? Better sidewalks? Better zoning? Development credits for affordable units? Less surface parking and more structures? More historic rehab or more new architecture? or both? More support for PPAC and AS220? Hit the universities up for taxes instead of burdening the rest of us? Amtrack in Olneyville?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes to everything, and more! Much more!

[lauram]

hey quick question

is an inclusionary affordable housing policy something we should be thinking about asking for in the new citywide re-zoning ordinance? is now the right time (maybe)?

[Cotuit]

hey quick question

is an inclusionary affordable housing policy something we should be thinking about asking for in the new citywide re-zoning ordinance?  is now the right time (maybe)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, and yes.

But don't expect that to mean that every development will have affordable units set aside within it. At times that would be the case, but it could, and often would mean, that a developer of not-so-affordable, or downright luxurious developments, may build affordable units elsewhere in the city to offset it. Though I would like to see the law written in such a way that in such cases, the developer would be required to build or fund affordable development within the same geographic area as his/her luxury developement. That way we have a fabric of mixed income communities and not a luxury zone with an affordable sector off somewhere on the edge of town.

[eltron]

hey quick question

is an inclusionary affordable housing policy something we should be thinking about asking for in the new citywide re-zoning ordinance?  is now the right time (maybe)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely! YES YES YES!

An inclusionary zoning ordinance is desperately needed AND feasible NOW!

The Buff Chace apartments WERE difficult to finance, but I think that was more the fact that those buildings were really visionary and trailblazing, the market was far from definite, and banks were reluctant to fund them because of that. It is now quite obvious to everyone that the market is there, especially with all of the new high-end projects that have recently been announced. At the scale and price point of developments now, an inclusionary ordinance, or even a fee-in-lieu-of-units, would have a negligiable impact on financial numbers.

Now that that ball is rolling full-speed downhill, we can step back and start to address the long-term needs to create true neighborhoods for the sorts of people- wealthy, middle-income, and low-income, (you know, teachers, firemen, artists, waiters, musicians, bankers, stock brokers) that make our city vibrant in the first place.

At Pearl Street, 5 of the 19 units for sale are lightly subsidized to make them more affordable (middle-income), and that was not an easy project to make work financially. Trust me, it is NOT going to be a problem for the OTW, Waterplaces, and Foundrys of the future.

[eltron]

BTW, for any artists looking for cool affordable living space, I would check out the Rau Fastener project listed in Providence projects 2.0. It is going to offer fantastic spaces and is an affordable rental project, so while not free, it will be equivalent to the "luxury" lofts at a fraction of the price.

Call West Elmwood Housing Development Corporation on Cranston Street and get on the waiting list. It'll probably be ready in the fall and is going to be well worth the wait.

[lauram]

ok so lobbying for inclusionary zoning seems like a good idea right now, then..

has anyone started the lobbying process? has anyone drafted something to deller about it? is there someone I can follow up with that knows more about this?

I would definitely be interested in working on this part of the equation, but it seems like we need to hurry up, as the re-zoning process is ramping up..

-lm

[eltron]

ok so lobbying for inclusionary zoning seems like a good idea right now, then..

has anyone started the lobbying process?  has anyone drafted something to deller about it?  is there someone I can follow up with that knows more about this?

I would definitely be interested in working on this part of the equation, but it seems like we need to hurry up, as the re-zoning process is ramping up..

-lm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

lm-

I emailed you off the board about this. lets talk.

[provid]

Bluff chase is just a small section of downtown ( and one where no one lived before )

[ArtInRuins]

Bluff chase is just a small section of downtown

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, and a larger part is Paolino. Notice all the vacant property on Weybosset has Paolino signs in the windows. I think he is sitting on his property, writing off the lost rent, and waiting for the buzz surrounding RISD's 15 West and Cornish's projects to drive interest into his properties. He isn't interested in any idea that will require him to reinvest the way Buff is. Paolino wont join the loft game when he has instead been lobbying to raze buildings for parking lots. I dont know how this will hinder the redevelopment of Downcity. Maybe his office space will fill up with people who live in Buff's apartments?

[provid]

The Peerless buidling is really neat. I put pictures in the Projects v2.1 section. RISD's 15 should also be a interesting building for students ( whenever its done )

[Cotuit]

David Seagal is the Green Party member of the City Council. He's a bit of a flake at times, but he's the one who would probably be the most receptive to discussing issues surrounding zoning for affordable housing, and encouraging city initiatives for artist spaces.

I know the mayor is very interested in maintaining a good mix of economic groups in the city. He's very difficult to track down because he's constatnly on the move. But he has mayor's night in/outs where you can get an audience with him to speak about anything.

Of course the City Councilor in your own district should be very reseptive to meeting with you and discussing issues, he wants to be sure you vote for him next tiime around. If you can get a group of 5 people together to meet with your city councilor, I'm sure he or she will make time to come to your house and talk to you about any issue.

State reps and senators are the same way, though usually they want to talk about specific legislation and you might want to try to get 10 people together (voters in his or her district).