Housing Prices

[ArtInRuins]

Of course the City Councilor in your own district should be very reseptive to meeting with you and discussing issues, he wants to be sure you vote for him next tiime around. If you can get a group of 5 people together to meet with your city councilor, I'm sure he or she will make time to come to your house and talk to you about any issue.

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This is true for most people, but my rep doesn't like me because he is tight with one of my neighbors, who for whatever reason, hates me. So I'll try to sit down with Cicilline, Thomas Deller, or Cliff Wood first.

[Cotuit]

This is true for most people, but my rep doesn't like me because he is tight with one of my neighbors, who for whatever reason, hates me. So I'll try to sit down with Cicilline, Thomas Deller, or Cliff Wood first.

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HaHa! You can get into situations like that too. You need to get enough friends in the neighbourhood behind you to show him you are a greater force to be reckoned with.

[RCBrickman]

Hi,

First off, I'm new to this board. Just stumbled on it today. I recently moved to Fox Point after being priced out of my illegal loft in olneyville. So I've been wondering a lot about who's going to fill in all these luxury lofts.

Here's what I don't get. In my circle of friends, most of whom are either artists, service industry workers, or work in the non-profit sector, I can count on one hand the number of people who make more than 20K a year. Senior staff at AS220 don't make that much a year, yet AS220 is referenced as a major selling point by urban redevelopers looking to sell Providence's hip and artsy image. When I first moved to Providence, I enjoyed a high standard of living at about 10K a year and that was only six years ago.

Now with all this "revitalization" affordable housing for me and my peers is becoming more and more scarce. Buying is nearly impossible, especially when rising rent precludes most from saving for a down payment. It seems like every year or so an out of state investor buys the building I'm renting in and doubles the rent, sending me scurrying to find a new place to live. The building that I'm living in now -- a shabby two-unit -- is on the market for almost 600K.

I heard on NPR the other day that homelessness in RI is at an all-time high. I think that's pretty shameful considering how much new housing is currently under construction.

So maybe the negative stuff we're hearing about all this new development isn't so much pessimism as it is resentment. I'm tired of hearing that a "Rising Sun" raises all boats. All that seems to be going up is the rent. I honestly don't see how all this development is going to help the average Rhode Islander.

m.

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i'm new on the board today too - but not a minute too soon for me. i'm moving from Berkshire County in Massachusetts, to Providence. I know Providence, and am glad to return. But your point about salaries for arts administrators/artists being terribly low - against a selling point for people to come to he neighborhood, is such an odd tension. The mythology of artists, almost - the Zoo feel to it. "let's go look at the artists" - part of my resonating to your thoughts is having just gone through a process, in a small town, to participate in a Mill/loft renovation-which fell apart, partially because even before completion, city folk were lined up. The currency somehow becomes to be near a creative community, while your presence there can increase the cost of living for the original folks. Even having those corners of artists living/working near each other, is part of a city's growth, before it's discovered - the city itself. It all ebbs and flows from there. I guess my thoughts are about the tension of artists as a "class" - they can be revered by wealthy, non artists, a magnet somehow, but rarely have their own lifestyles benefit. So too, the people who lived there before the artists started the ruckus in the first place.

[scheffler]

If Providence becomes a Boston bedroom community, then you're replacing these concerned locals with people who spend 8 hours in an office in another state and three hours commuting five days a week. Where does their coveted capital go? To the banks if their mortgaging or landlords if they're renting? To a private school and the service industry? To MA income taxes? How does this help Providnce? What's trickling down and where?

I'm all about getting more money and commerce into this city if it will improve the lives of its residents, but I don't think that the type of economic growth going on right now is necessarily the recipe for improving quality of life here.

Miriam

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[provid]

Hey scheffler,

I agree with you and infact I feel riding the train into Boston is a great opportunity for people. Its quick and stress free comminute that allows people to escape ( live ) into a city ( providence ) that I feel is much more livable a friendly.

Were are you considering moving too? If you need any recommendations of places within walking distance of the train station feel free to ask. I

[billypc99]

"How does this help Providnce?"

I think the one of the most overlooked benefits to providence is the addition of skilled and qualified workers. This will serve as an incentive for companies to acquire office space in providence. If you haven't noticed there haven't been any announcements of new office space besides G-Tech & at that they will be seeking tennants. The problem is supply of skilled workers. There are many people "from Providence" that are skilled and qualified, but have moved on to Boston & NYC. I think once more residents start flowing in or I should say continue to flow in as they are, then when companies do research as to what kind of workforce exists they will be enticed to set up shop. BTW, this is not an original thought as this scenario has been mentioned by others on this board.

[provid]

The newspaper said 90% of new metro loft residents

[raypacia]

Amen to Scheffler's comments. While the ideal is for people to both live and work in Providence en masse, we are still a city on the move, with a long way to go to fulfilling that vision. There is right now, as we all know, a demand for downcity housing. All those houses, on the supply side, will create a ripe environment for downtown business to take hold. That's basic econ. I am a proud Rhode Islander, albeit an expatriate for the next few years. I do dream of returning to the state for good some day. What if I find a great job in Boston but I want to live downcity and use my tax dollars to contribute to my home state? Should I be punished for that and pigeonhold as some sort of villain to the artist community? I would hope not.

While Boston commuters are obviously important to the downcity housing boom, I don't think they are the only factor; our city has lots of potential independent of beantown. But for the time being, I think it's completely unfair to blackball people who work in Boston and want to live in Providence. I'm sure most everyone would prefer a walk from Westminster to Weybosset St. for a morning commute over an hour ride on the T. But the jobs simply aren't there right now. Hopefully they will be some day, and companies will relocate to Providence when they see what an amazing place to live it is becoming.

[RCBrickman]

The newspaper said 90% of new metro loft residents

[Jenkins]

I happen to be one of those Bostonians who moved to Providence, but still commute back to Boston to work. I live in the north end, right off 95, so it's actually easier to take the train out of South Attleboro. My wife drives up to Hopkington Mass. to work. We both would of course love to work right in Providence, but until industry comes here, we are happy to commute. Nothing wrong with being a bedroom community of Boston. Hell, half of Connecticut and NJ have done just fine for themselves feeding off the economic engine of New York City. But I also agree with what was said before - let's first at least get skilled people living in Providence, then industry will develop. Nothing wrong with that at all. In the meantime, I may be paying Mass. income taxes, but Lord knows I am paying Providence property and sales taxes I also do really wish that the Providence school systems weren't so bad, because if/when we have youngins that would mean we would have to move out of Providence.

[provid]

That is a good point you bring up about providence schools but thats would need an entire new forum to disscuss all those problems

A vaild point however becasue good or not so good schools could really become the center of all hot talk in the future if providence finds itself with a booming workers market.

[Garris]

[snip]...but until industry comes here, we are happy to commute.

My prediction is that there is a huge pent up supply of talent in Providence that is waiting to be tapped... I think it was a year or so ago that a report came out showing that Providence was in the bottem 5 or 10 cities in the U.S. of the ratio of people being trained/educated in a metro to the number of jobs in that metro to employ them when they're done. Bad stuff... My girlfriend is struggling with this now... She has been trained by Brown in her field, but unless Brown hires her in that field, she's completely shut out of this area all together. There's no one else to hire her. She'd need to go to Boston, Western Mass, CT, or NYC.

Nothing wrong with being a bedroom community of Boston. Hell, half of Connecticut and NJ have done just fine for themselves feeding off the economic engine of New York City.

As a person who grew up in that NYC bedroom zone, let me assure you there are problems with being a fiefdom of such a place. Quoting from my own message in another thread, "the mindset of NYC being the only place anything of character, entertainment, or edge being desired or needed will always hold back the NY area sub-cities. For this reason too, NIMBY-ism in the New York Metro suburbs and cities tends to be greater than anywhere else I've ever lived. In their modern incarnations, cities such as Danbury and Peekskill are population centers that were started as cities long ago, but desperately wish to be suburbs today. If only they didn't have their pesky density, downtowns, and issues to deal with!"

I also do really wish that the Providence school systems weren't so bad, because if/when we have youngins that would mean we would have to move out of Providence.

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I think this is a huge problem no one is talking enough about. In only 9 or so months in Providence, I've known a lot of people who've moved out in order to go to areas with much better school systems.

- Garris

[scheffler]

Hey scheffler,

I agree with you and infact I feel riding the train into Boston is a great opportunity for people.  Its quick and stress free comminute that allows people to escape ( live )  into a city ( providence ) that I feel is much more livable a friendly.

Were are you considering moving too? If you need any recommendations of places within walking distance of the train station feel free to ask. I

[Garris]

In your opininon, do you think on a nice day that I could walk to the rail from the west end, or way too far?

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The West End is something of a large area, so it depends where you are, but in my opinion, it's probably too far... I wouldn't want to do that walk regularly, especially in darker hours. You could take a bus to Kennedy Plaza and walk from there.

- Garris

[Liamlunchtray]

The West End is something of a large area, so it depends where you are, but in my opinion, it's probably too far...  I wouldn't want to do that walk regularly, especially in darker hours.  You could take a bus to Kennedy Plaza and walk from there.

- Garris

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If your in the east end of the west end (boy that makes sense doesnt it) you can walk that. A little far, but really not too bad. We live right next to Dexter St and I have done that walk before. We have had tenants that worked at the mall who walked every day.

In unrelated West End news, they have started demo'ing a building on Westminster that abuts the Paolino lofts (not sure what the proper name is of that project). There is also another vacant lot there that has been fenced off with a condos coming soon sign. (this is all in the stretch of Westminster between Bridgham St and Canonicus Square)

Liam

[Cotuit]

If your in the east end of the west end (boy that makes sense doesnt it) you can walk that. A little far, but really not too bad. We live right next to Dexter St and I have done that walk before. We have had tenants that worked at the mall who walked every day.

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I live on Federal Hill and walk regularly to work near Benefit Street. Of course I'm often lazy and take the bus, and with all the snow this winter walking was a hassle, so I took the bus a lot on snowy days. But it is certainly walkable from parts of the West Side.

In unrelated West End news, they have started demo'ing a building on Westminster that abuts the Paolino lofts (not sure what the proper name is of that project). There is also another vacant lot there that has been fenced off with a condos coming soon sign. (this is all in the stretch of Westminster between Bridgham St and Canonicus Square)

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Now that the weather's improving, and the sun is out later, I really need to take a walk around the West Side.

[Cotuit]

ProJo article on the Housing Bubble.

[eltron]

ProJo article on the Housing Bubble.

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Pretty lame article and full of generalizations, imho.

I think the media is fishing on this one...

[Cotuit]

Phoenix article about artists spaces in Providence and Pawtucket.

[scheffler]

Hey What's up Providence. Since this thread has been analyzing the "housing bubble" in Providence I though I would offer this link so y'all could see how cnn rates Providence on the scale compared to other national markets.

http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/home_valuations/

[provid]

Interesting find.

[Jenkins]

Interesting find.

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Good to see they have Providence listed in the "Fairly Valued" category, even if it is 5% over. Boston is 14% over... Also interesting to see some of the cities they listed as undervalued. Having to a fair amount of them (i.e. Oklahoma City, Tulsa, Hartford ) it doesn't surprise me people are not breaking down the doors to move there.

[ruchele]

How realistic do you all think pricing of the new downtown lofts and condos is? I've seen prices up to $1m. People always seem to say "It would be twice as much in Boston!" but I don't think they're comparing apples to apples. Sure, a condo in Back Bay or the South End is going for twice as much, but it seems you can buy condos (or whole houses) in the residential areas in and around Boston for less then they're asking here in Prov. The assumption seems to be that people will buy here and commute, but why would they bother commuting from Providence, when it costs the same or less to buy and commute from, say, Jamaica Plain, Ashmont Hill or Davis Square?

Will all these luxury apts be vacant because they're just not worth it?

Ideas?

[Jenkins]

How realistic do you all think pricing of the new downtown lofts and condos is?

[Garris]

How realistic do you all think pricing of the new downtown lofts and condos is?  I've seen prices up to $1m.  People always seem to say "It would be twice as much in Boston!" but I don't think they're comparing apples to apples.  Sure, a condo in Back Bay or the South End is going for twice as much, but it seems you can buy condos (or whole houses) in the residential areas in and around Boston for less then they're asking here in Prov. The assumption seems to be that people will buy here and commute, but why would they bother commuting from Providence, when it costs the same or less to buy and commute from, say, Jamaica Plain, Ashmont Hill or Davis Square?

Will all these luxury apts be vacant because they're just not worth it?

Ideas?

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Hard for me to say, since I don't know the Boston market that well. I will say that I know people in Boston who have been condo shopping of late, and they were strongly considering Providence. They ended up in Watertown, and still will have a mass transit commute not much shorter than if they moved to Providence. And they're a bit disappointed too since they're living in more of a suburban style neighborhood.

I think the thing is this... If you want truly NYC, Chicago, Boston urban style living... You roll out of bed, walk to the corner restaurant, then walk to the bookstore, then walk to catch a show or a train... You want to feel like you're in the center of a densely populated, vibrant community... If you want to BUY a place in the center of that lifestyle in Boston right now and not commute into it, then you need a lot of cash (at least, that's what they say). For many people of more modest means (and I'm defining modest here by this couple looking to spend, I'm guessing, between $300,000 and $400,000), they just couldn't do it in Boston. Sure they could live in a more "suburban" surrounding town (which they ended up doing), but that's not what they wanted. That $300 - 400K could get them that lifestyle in Providence, however, in any number of neighborhoods (including many of the buildings proposed for Downcity).

The reason that all these luxury condos will fill (in my opinion) is that for people who truly desire European/Asian urban style in modern suburban America, there just aren't that many options. I mean, really, in the whole massive US of A, how many cities are there where you can really live easily (and desirably) without a car in a downtown metro?

Boston, Providence, NYC, Phily, DC, Chicago, SF, Portland, Seattle (maybe), LA (debatable), maybe Madison WI... It's late, and I'm forgetting a few, I'm sure, but not many... There are lots of great cities where this really isn't possible yet (including Minneapolis/St Paul, although this is changing, not really is Pittsburgh, I'm not sure about Miami, etc, etc...)

In those above metros, they're asking those crazy prices and getting them because there is a hard core urban living crowd with money and very, very few of those downtown residential properties... It's supply and demand... You only need a tiny sliver of the market of 2 million people with money who want to buy those 1500 units proposed for downtown.

As examples thus far, I think most of Eastside Commons under construction on the East Side in walkable Wayland Sq have been sold before it ever opens up. I think the Jefferson rentals and Avalon Sq are both essentially full... I think there has been enomous interest in the expensive Pratt Condos under constrution on the East Side... And I think the lofts downtown have been renting well thus far, I've heard... Isn't the mega expensive Cosmopolitan also nearly full?

I think of myself... For the fairly modest amount I paid for my Wayland Sq condo, I could have bought a place twice the size in Riverside or Cranston... But I wanted urban living... If I made triple my salary and could afford a 110 or a Cosmopolitan, I would have...

Also, I just recently read that the Providence market has one of the lowest percentages (like in the bottom 5 metros in the nation) of interest only mortages being done. The analysis (this was in BusinessWeek) suggested that this means those markets had the "truest" and "most durable" price increases.

- Garris