Interesting take on immigrants

[Snowguy716]

http://www.startribune.com/563/story/863886.html

So, the American Swedish Institute is celebrating St. Lucia Day today. Another group of immigrants who just don't get it. You are in America now. If you want to honor foreign traditions, eat rotten fish, dress up in funny clothes, speak Swedish and light candles on your head, what are you doing here? Go back to the old country. And, if you insist on displaying the Swedish flag, we'll just have to pass a law against that like Pahrump, Nev. Meanwhile, I've got to finish my Christmas baking. The Fruchtebrotchen are ready for the oven as soon as the Lebkuchen are done.

ROCHELLE EASTMAN, EDEN PRAIRIE

I laughed so hard when I read this. It's nice to know that others feel the same way I do about xenophobic Americans. Of course the debate is more complicated than this, but it speaks well.

This reminded me of a story a friend of mine from Germany told me, once. On weekdays during the morning, the subways in Cologne get very full and there are always more people trying to get into the train before it leaves. She said it was really interesting how people are always saying "Oh, come on! There's room for a few more! Make some room for us!" when they're on the outside, but once they get in, they're the ones trying to keep those on the outside from coming in because it'd be roomier inside the train.

This can, sadly, be extrapolated to the immigration debate. Wake up people, your German ancestors were going to German speaking schools until 1917 and speaking German at home and going to church services in German well into the 1950s. Nothing has changed.

[tamias6]

^This country as a people and culture is a patchwork of immigrants. Everything that makes America, America has at some point in time been adapted from elements from all other the world. Why else is this country called the melting pot of the world? As for the imigrents coming into this country, I just only ask that they come here via legel channels. That's all.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Yes, but 1) there wasn't a big social care system for them, and 2) they came over in much smaller numbers. Now we have public schools, social welfare, and other expensive things.

It's not a question of fear of these people, it's a question of why should I fit the bill for them.

[tamias6]

Not sure where you're going. Can you elaborate?

Yes, but 1) there wasn't a big social care system for them, and 2) they came over in much smaller numbers. Now we have public schools, social welfare, and other expensive things.

It's not a question of fear of these people, it's a question of why should I fit the bill for them.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

The original poster was comparing the immigrants of the past with the immigrants of the present. The country at the time of the immigrants of the past didn't have this social welfare system, nor did they have public schools. In addition, they came over in much smaller numbers. They didn't strain the system as much as immigrants do today, especially the illegals.

Today we have a huge social welfare system, and Hispanics are coming in by the millions each year. They have high birthrates (and receive services for these children) and don't make enough money to pay income taxes, we (the productive, that is, not the college students and not the lazy) have to foot the bills for their culture.

If you want to have those services

[davidals]

The original poster was comparing the immigrants of the past with the immigrants of the present. The country at the time of the immigrants of the past didn't have this social welfare system, nor did they have public schools. In addition, they came over in much smaller numbers. They didn't strain the system as much as immigrants do today, especially the illegals.

Today we have a huge social welfare system, and Hispanics are coming in by the millions each year. They have high birthrates (and receive services for these children) and don't make enough money to pay income taxes, we (the productive, that is, not the college students and not the lazy) have to foot the bills for their culture.

I don't want those services. I'd be totally happy with getting rid of them all together, and in the case of the schools, privatizing them.

[Gusterfell]

They didn't strain the system as much as immigrants do today, especially the illegals.

[Snowguy716]

It's not worth trying to convince "free-marketers" otherwise. Our country would be a utopian dream if only we could privatize schools and slash social security and medicare.

They've made it obvious that free-market ideals should be sought even if it will lead to increased human suffering.

I find it cold and a-moral, but that's my personal opinion. I can't stand to watch people suffer. Even if they "deserve it" because they were lazy, everyone deserves a warm meal and a roof over their head.. even if they are here illegally. We live in the richest nation in the world (In absolute, $ terms), and we can't make sure that every person has adequate access to medical care or an education?

The moral fiber of this country was not founded on capitalism and economic prowess. This country was a blip on the radar until after WWII. Free-market capitalism was long gone by then. The government's decisions have affected the way this country eats, where we live, what jobs we do, how we think of others in the world.. pretty much every aspect of our life. I would never have wanted to live in this country in the early 20th century. Upton Sinclair's The Jungle tells me enough about how "great" free-market no-regulation capitalism was.

If the government can give multi-billion dollar handouts from all tax payers to corporations while they rake in record profits, they can certainly pay to supplement retirement income and hospital bills.

And one question to Moonshield: Did you go to public schools? Ever driven on a public road? Used a sidewalk? Drank city water? Ate corn? Ate any processed food? Sugar? Used oil? Hired employees that went to public schools? And right on down the line.

I take it you're a self-employed businessman. You've benefitted from government "social programs" more than most of us.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

edit:

bah, I deleted the post because it was poorly written and largely incoherent.

[Pillsbury]

No one cares about Hispanic parades or festivals or anything like that. I happen to love Hispanic festivals (and every other festival that involves good food and drink). Who wouldn't? I go to these festivals and see every type of person there.

But I'm tired of being made to feel guilty simply because I'm an American. The Irish, Italians, et al never held demonstrations in the streets of our cities demanding that we make them legal citizens. They never insulted the inhabitants of their new country because they could only speak English. Give me a break. I have no problem with anyone coming to this nation. Every ethnic group save upper Europeans that has ever set foot on this land has faced discrmination at first--it's human nature. The only people who can complain about it in my opinion are African-Americans, whose ancestors were drug here against their will. They can complain. Everyone else can leave me alone.

Also, this country was more than a blip on the radar well before WWII. We were a reckoning economic force through the mid-19th Century, finally exerting our dominance after first World War.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Also, this country was more than a blip on the radar well before WWII. We were a reckoning economic force through the mid-19th Century, finally exerting our dominance after first World War.

[Snowguy716]

No one cares about Hispanic parades or festivals or anything like that. I happen to love Hispanic festivals (and every other festival that involves good food and drink). Who wouldn't? I go to these festivals and see every type of person there.

But I'm tired of being made to feel guilty simply because I'm an American. The Irish, Italians, et al never held demonstrations in the streets of our cities demanding that we make them legal citizens. They never insulted the inhabitants of their new country because they could only speak English. Give me a break. I have no problem with anyone coming to this nation. Every ethnic group save upper Europeans that has ever set foot on this land has faced discrmination at first--it's human nature. The only people who can complain about it in my opinion are African-Americans, whose ancestors were drug here against their will. They can complain. Everyone else can leave me alone.

Also, this country was more than a blip on the radar well before WWII. We were a reckoning economic force through the mid-19th Century, finally exerting our dominance after first World War.

[Pillsbury]

Snowguy, you've got me confused with Lou Dobbs or Pat Buchannan here okay? Of course immigrants from non-English speaking countries would not speak English, Mexicans included. I don't care if anyone learns English. You misread my statement. Also, I didn't mind them waving Mexican flags either. Couldn't careless---though I did think it was a bad idea and that they needed a better PR person.

Thank God this isn't 1890 and we've evolved a little bit since then. We have a huge social net right now (which I support), but the question, can we maintain that social net and have uncontrolled immigration? It raises questions that are rising from immigration that need to be answered:

1. Does that United States of America have the right to determine who enters its borders?

2. Should prefernce be given to citizens of South American countries and Mexico?

3. Should America open it borders to any person on earth who wishes to come here?

Asking these questions is not racist; nor is it xenophobic. I want whatever is best for the world and America.

Also, let me add that only thing that upset me about the protests was the fact that they were protesting when Bush wanted to offer them a route to citizenship. Why not protest the inept Mexican government that forced them to abadnon their homeland? How about that?

[monsoon]

There is a difference between immigrants of the past centuries and the "illegals" of today. The difference is the former group came to the USA to start a new life. Today's illegals come here to work and send their money back to to mostly Mexico. They have no intention of integrating into our society, adopting to our culture, or living here on a permanent basis. As as result they have no stake in our society's future.

[Captain Worley]

Very true. Seems that the system is milked for all that it will give and then they vamoose...

[Gusterfell]

Very true. Seems that the system is milked for all that it will give and then they vamoose...

[Pillsbury]

^ But who is anti-immigrant? And I was against the war in Iraq from day one. You probably won't find too many people who are anti-immigrant, but you will find many who are anti-illegal immigration, which should not be suprising. Come now, would any other nation on earth allow 12 million people in its country without having any idea who they are? How about the Mexican government, which screams so loud about our immigration policies? What do you think the Mexican government does if someone is there illegally? How about the European Union?

[Snowguy716]

1) Secure the borders.

2) Offer a path to citizenship for current illegal immigrants

3) Completely overhaul the INS to make it much easier for people that are A) seeking temporary employment in the U.S (no welfare), B) Permanent employment, but not citizenship (limited welfare), or C) seeking citizenship.

4) Make it easier for Canadians, Europeans, and east Asians to enter the country (countries that don't pose a terrorist threat and whose populations are stable). No visa required for 90 days. Visa required for 90-180 day stays. Residency permit required beyond 180 days that can be applied for within the country.

Entrance for Canadians with proof of citizenship and photo ID. (Driver's license plus birth certificate, for example). No Visa requirement for Canadians, but work permits required if they desire employment. Entrance for Europeans and others from overseas with valid passports.

People from countries where there is a chance that they would stay or countries that pose a national security threat would need a visa to enter the country no matter the length of stay.

More liberal laws for people seeking asylum, especially those from Iraq and other war torn/oppressed nations.

[Pillsbury]

^ Good ideas.....

[Gusterfell]

^ But who is anti-immigrant? And I was against the war in Iraq from day one. You probably won't find too many people who are anti-immigrant, but you will find many who are anti-illegal immigration, which should not be suprising. Come now, would any other nation on earth allow 12 million people in its country without having any idea who they are? How about the Mexican government, which screams so loud about our immigration policies? What do you think the Mexican government does if someone is there illegally? How about the European Union?

[Charlotte_native]

There is a difference between immigrants of the past centuries and the "illegals" of today. The difference is the former group came to the USA to start a new life. Today's illegals come here to work and send their money back to to mostly Mexico. They have no intention of integrating into our society, adopting to our culture, or living here on a permanent basis. As as result they have no stake in our society's future.

[Pillsbury]

Those who have made legal immigration incredibly difficult are certainly anti-immigrant. So are those who complain about immigrants, legal or otherwise, speaking their own language and celebrating their own heritage. Likewise complaining that immigrants are a drain on social services. Legal vs. illegal immigration wasn't an issue in this thread until the last couple posts, and yet there is plenty of griping about immigrants throughout.

[Gusterfell]

The racist call seems very unfair given that our current immigration policy discourages immigration from Europe, therein denying many poor in eastern Europe the opportunity to come here.

[monsoon]

Wow that sounds racist. "They" don't all do the same things. "They" are as varied as we are with their intentions for the future. Many from south of us do exactly what is written above, many more are actually settling here, working here, trying to become citizens.

We certainly have every right in the world to secure our borders and need to. It is more an issue of controlling who comes in, for what length of time, and for what reason. The open seive we have now gives us no control over anthing. Sound policy is lacking.

[Snowguy716]

How is it that you can tell people to go away for accusing others of being racist and then tell them they're not true Americans for supporting illegal immigrants that want amnesty?

Does it matter if its a race or an ethnicity? Either way, it's xenophobia.

How do you know that all illegal immigrants/migrant workers/whatever you want to call them today are just coming here to make money and then return to Mexico? A lot of illegal immigrants come here and send money back in hopes that the whole family can come here in the future. They should be doing this legally, but something tells me that if they did, they would never even come close to gaining entry into the country let alone attain citizenship.

In desparate situations, people resort to desparate measures. And Charlotte Native was right. Sound policy is lacking. We wouldn't be having this discussion if there was a decent immigration policy (or maybe we would anyway. Again, xenophobia).