Interesting take on immigrants

[Pillsbury]

However, there are plenty of illegals from eastern Europe, but you don't hear the venomous attacks against them that you do against Hispanics. Often, complaints about Hispanic immigrants don't differentiate between legal and illegal immigrants. That is when the criticm becomes racist.

[Charlotte_native]

You know, if you can't discuss this topic without calling others racist then go away. It means you are not willing or unable to address the issues at hand. And you didn't address any point I made. The fact remains that $45B of our GDP was transferred to Mexico alone last year via wire transfer by illegals. Illegals are not immigrants. They are people who came here illegally to leech off our system. 1 out of 7 workers in Mexico are not in the USA working illegally. They are here because corruption of the Mexican government denies any chance to get ahead in their society to a large segment of their population.

(BTW, Mexicans are not a race, it is a nationality., It might help to educate yourself on this topic)

These illegals have no similarity to the immigrants of past centuries who came here with the intention of starting a new life. Instead they march down our streets with the Mexican flag raised in protests in an attempt to gain amnesty for their illegal status. I don't see how any true American, immigrant or not, could be in support of that.

[monsoon]

.... Most of them are illegal immigrants from Mexico. It's the same way in North Carolina. And it's not racist to point it out. A racist is someone who believes that their race is superior to another race. If you want to see racism, drop down South of the Border and hang out down there and see they way the lighter-skinned "conquistador" descendants treat the darker-skinned people with Native American attributes....

[Snowguy716]

The problem is not as widepsread though---or if it is, it hasn't been reported by the media. I read an article sometime ago about illegal Irish immigrants. I've also read about Russian illegal immigrants settling around metro NYC. I've also read about Poles flooding into England this year, which has been cut off by the EU even though Poland is a member state. Oh well.

But these numbers are small compared to the 12 million illegal immigrants in this country. My state has something close to 1 million Hispanics right now. Most of them are illegal immigrants from Mexico. It's the same way in North Carolina. And it's not racist to point it out. A racist is someone who believes that their race is superior to another race. If you want to see racism, drop down South of the Border and hang out down there and see they way the lighter-skinned "conquistador" descendants treat the darker-skinned people with Native American attributes.

You're right that there is a danger to lump all Hispanics into one big category, which in reality is neither fair nor accurate.

[monsoon]

How is it that you can tell people to go away for accusing others of being racist and then tell them they're not true Americans for supporting illegal immigrants that want amnesty?

Does it matter if its a race or an ethnicity? Either way, it's xenophobia.

How do you know that all illegal immigrants/migrant workers/whatever you want to call them today are just coming here to make money and then return to Mexico? A lot of illegal immigrants come here and send money back in hopes that the whole family can come here in the future. They should be doing this legally, but something tells me that if they did, they would never even come close to gaining entry into the country let alone attain citizenship.

In desparate situations, people resort to desparate measures. And Charlotte Native was right. Sound policy is lacking. We wouldn't be having this discussion if there was a decent immigration policy (or maybe we would anyway. Again, xenophobia).

[Charlotte_native]

Indeed. The call of racism was a disingenious attempt to detract from the real issue at hand.

[monsoon]

... but painting all mexican illegals with one brush will make it hard to think through the huge differences between these people. ....

[Charlotte_native]

I did not say that all Mexicans were Illegals. Why don't you bother to actually read what I have written.

It would be helpful if you actually bothered to take the time to listen to the others who are posting in this thread.

[monsoon]

Until we separate the various reasons that illegal folks are in this country ...

[Snowguy716]

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/873084.html

INS workers arrested nearly 1300 unauthorized workers yesterday Swift & Co. Meatpacking plants all across the midwest, including 230 at a Swift & Co. meatpacking plant in Worthington, MN.

Officials had been investigating this for some time because of identity theft in order fo the immigrants to appear legal.

65 of the 1282 were charged with identity theft for using authentic social security numbers to get jobs. None of those arrested in MN were charged with identity theft.

Swift & Co. had been informed ahead of time that the government would remove unauthorized employees on Dec. 4th, and the company asked a judge not to allow the raids, as it would cost the company great harm. 40% of its employees are undocumented workers. The 1282 arrested represents about 10% of the company's total 13,000 employees.

It will be interesting to see what happens. The company will have to find new, legal employees to replace those arrested and they will no doubt have to pay these people more.

The meatpacking industry has been ravaged by union busting and illegal immigrant labor. Wages at some plants are flat in gross terms with wages in the late 1960s.

Now you see why Bush is so nonplussed about engaging in the immigration debate. His friends ($$$- and campaign donations) rely on cheap illegal immigrant labor to keep their profits higher.

I mostly enjoy watching the company recoil after being stung. I feel for the immigrants' families as they will spend Christmas without relatives and without income. But I think it will teach the companies that hire illegal immigrants a lesson: You make deals with the devil, you pay the consequences.

[Captain Worley]

Here's a good question related to the identity theft. In SC, they are trying to put the onus on the companies to prove their workers are legal. A local electrical contractor had a ditch cave in and two people were killed. It turned out that the driver's license and Social Security cards they gave were fakes, but had valid names and numbers, so they checked out. The contractor was fined for having illegal workers.

How far is an employer to go to demonstrate his workers are legal?

[Snowguy716]

It all depends on how you look at it. Companies shouldn't knowingly hire illegal immigrants. If it can be proven that the company knowingly hired illegal immigrants, they should be fined pretty substantially.

If they hire immigrants and they have papers that check out, they shouldn't be fined if it turns out they're illegal, as long as the company didn't know that.

The government has taken the responsibility of protecting our borders by putting border control there and building fences and patrolling it. The government is then responsible if illegal immigrants come into the country. Of course being here is illegal, but the government seems to come out on top here: They get to patrol the border in a half-ass way AND collect fines on companies that hire illegal immigrants.

In many cases, though, the company knows full well what is going on. There was a meat-processing plant in St. Paul that sent buses down to the Mexico/Texas border and picked up illegal immigrants, drove them to St. Paul, and dropped them off at the homeless shelter for a place to sleep until they got paid. That's just sick.

That only adds more fuel to my distrust and general cynicism of Corporate America.

[monsoon]

http://www.startribune.com/462/story/873084.html

....But I think it will teach the companies that hire illegal immigrants a lesson: You make deals with the devil, you pay the consequences.

[dubone]

I would support the entire country of Mexico moving here. But I want there to be a system for registration, and granting of a work permit. As part of that, I would want there to be an exception to minimum wage laws for foreign workers, and a ban on public subsidies for them (such as welfare, medicaid, and free schooling, etc.).

I think that having both allowances for any number to come, and a reduction in handouts available to them could help reduce the controversy of it. I'm not xenophobic, and I don't mind pressing 1 for English, and I don't mind hearing spanish, or having bilingual signs everywhere. However, our system of laws should be honest and at the same time not bankrupt local governments. Local governments and schools are struggling to meet the demands of what is expected of them because of the illegals. I think if we took away the welfare accommodations at the same time as the xenophobic rules, that would be fair.

[MadVlad]

I don't think it matters much why someone is in this country illegally. It's Illegal, breaking the law, illegetimate. Nobody can join a society when they have no legitimatacy to be here in the first place. Never mind, they are breaking the laws and making it harder for the immigrants who do choose to respect the process for moving to the USA.

There is nothing good about it for Americans.

[Snowguy716]

That raid I posted about earlier has had some major effects on the communities involved. In Worthington, for example, schools have had to prepare crisis management plans because many students were in school when their parents were arrested, and they had no one to go home to.

One woman is being released because her young child was with a baby sitter when she was arrested.

Business has dropped drastically at many businesses as the illegal immigrants are too afraid to shop and many of them are leaving town.

This leaves the meat packing plants with many open positions that nobody will take.

What will this mean? A) A rise in wages to attract legal workers resulting in higher production costs and a natural disadvantage in competition as other meat packing companies were not targeted, but employ illegals just the same... or B) Another wave of illegal immigrants comes in to fill in the positions and the process just carries on.

What do we do about mothers who have children that are American citizens? No judge is going to separate a 15 month old child from its mother when the child has a right to be here.

What about the schools that stand to lose 10-20% of their enrolled students, and thus 10-20% of their funding and the resulting cuts in programs, school closures, and teacher cuts?

The businesses that rely on immigrant purchases such as grocery stores and other small businesses that have suffered a huge decline in sales since last week right at what is normally a very busy time of year?

Please, someone tell me how this is good for our country. Unfairly targeting certain communities and certain companies and sending shockwaves through those communities does nothing but harm them.

I'm sure some of the conservative old white fogeys are happy about the bust, but they'll soon realize as the jobs dry up and their youngens leave town that the immigrants were actually the life support of their long-time dying communities.

[Pillsbury]

^ That is sad. A similar raid down here resulted in about the same things happening. One difference, however, was that convicted felons have been brought into fill the positions. I think it's a wonderful idea considering that many times felons (even non-violent felons) have trouble finding employment. At least it's honest work.

[Snowguy716]

THat's true. I feel, however, that the same people that cheered the exodus of illegal immigrants due to the raid would be hearkening back to the good ole' days of Rosita's Mexican food when they have 300 convincted felons working down at the packing plant

[Pillsbury]

^ Hard to argue that!!!

[Captain Worley]

^ That is sad. A similar raid down here resulted in about the same things happening. One difference, however, was that convicted felons have been brought into fill the positions. I think it's a wonderful idea considering that many times felons (even non-violent felons) have trouble finding employment. At least it's honest work.

[Pillsbury]

^ Sounds marketable to me.

[monsoon]

...

This leaves the meat packing plants with many open positions that nobody will take......

[MadVlad]

So I guess they are suggesting that wages that nobody will work for EXCEPT illegals are competitive wages? Guys, you need to come with some better arguements than that....

[Snowguy716]

I think it'll be a good thing if wages go up in that sector. The illegal immigrants have been driving the wages down, but for the government to target one company in particular when you and I know darn well that all of the companies do the same thing is a bit unfair.

The fact is, if they were paying what they did 30 years ago, people would be making $25/hr right now at meat packing plants. In stead, they're making anywhere from $8-12/hr. Then again, who wants to pay $3-4 for a pound of hamburger?

[waccamatt]

I am pro immigration, but I don't think we should encourage people to have children. That goes for increased benefits and for tax deductions. Single people without children give everything and get nothing in return. People should have children because they want them and will care for them, not because it will increase their social service support. Other than that I say make legal immigration much easier and support new immigrants with English for (fill in the blank) speakers.