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tiblerbrit

Surface Parking Lot at Trade and Poplar

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Does anyone know who owns this lot, and if there are any plans for it? I haven't read any on here, but if this lot were developed it would really help the West Trade canyon and continuity down to Gateway Village. It's pretty much the closest undeveloped lot to the Square now (discounting the Carillion's pocket park).

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Yeah, the church owns that lot, and I've never even heard rumblings about anything on that block. I also somwhat doubt the church will be that willing to give up the revenue and the church parking.

But it is certainly possible, as I believe all churches uptown should do, and that is the sell the land back and with a portion of the proceeds, get a lease for as many spaces back.

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Yeah, the church owns that lot, and I've never even heard rumblings about anything on that block. I also somwhat doubt the church will be that willing to give up the revenue and the church parking.

But it is certainly possible, as I believe all churches uptown should do, and that is the sell the land back and with a portion of the proceeds, get a lease for as many spaces back.

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Drifting off topic, but speaking of churches with parking lots and nearby parking garages...

I think it would be neat if Mount Moriah Primitive Baptist Church on West Trade used parking in the Cedar Street deck across the way instead of surface parking on their own lot. Then they could rip up their asphalt (except for some handicapped spaces and a service driveway) and plant some trees in its place. So in 50 years, rather than having lots of asphault that detracts from the urban streetscape of Gateway Village, they could end up with a nicely forested parkscape that really adds a lot, like (for example) Christ Episcopal Church or in New BernAll Souls Episcopal Church in Ashevlle.

However, I'm sure that the Cedar Street deck generates plenty of revenue from football games on Sunday, and the church doesn't own any extra land to sell and gain parking rights on Sunday, so they have little to gain from this deal beyond prettier surroundings for their building. Unless the owner of the Cedar Street deck wants to 'donate' the parking spaces as a tax write-off, I really can't see this happening. That deck is privately owned & operated, isn't it?

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Drifting off topic, but speaking of churches with parking lots and nearby parking garages...

I think it would be neat if Mount Moriah Primitive Baptist Church on West Trade used parking in the Cedar Street deck across the way instead of surface parking on their own lot. Then they could rip up their asphalt (except for some handicapped spaces and a service driveway) and plant some trees in its place. So in 50 years, rather than having lots of asphault that detracts from the urban streetscape of Gateway Village, they could end up with a nicely forested parkscape that really adds a lot, like (for example) Christ Episcopal Church or in New BernAll Souls Episcopal Church in Ashevlle.

However, I'm sure that the Cedar Street deck generates plenty of revenue from football games on Sunday, and the church doesn't own any extra land to sell and gain parking rights on Sunday, so they have little to gain from this deal beyond prettier surroundings for their building. Unless the owner of the Cedar Street deck wants to 'donate' the parking spaces as a tax write-off, I really can't see this happening. That deck is privately owned & operated, isn't it?

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when i went to the Vue sales office (many months ago), they told me that they had done a lot of work to pick their site. they told me their first choice was that parking lot under discussion here, and they made an offer to the church that did include the church having parking on sundays and for other needs and the church said no. the reason they told me this was they were selling the idea that the lot would not be developed and steal the view from the Vue. they used as a selling point the fact that the curch declined their rich offer.

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However, I'm sure that the Cedar Street deck generates plenty of revenue from football games on Sunday, and the church doesn't own any extra land to sell and gain parking rights on Sunday, so they have little to gain from this deal beyond prettier surroundings for their building. Unless the owner of the Cedar Street deck wants to 'donate' the parking spaces as a tax write-off, I really can't see this happening. That deck is privately owned & operated, isn't it?

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when i went to the Vue sales office (many months ago), they told me that they had done a lot of work to pick their site. they told me their first choice was that parking lot under discussion here, and they made an offer to the church that did include the church having parking on sundays and for other needs and the church said no. the reason they told me this was they were selling the idea that the lot would not be developed and steal the view from the Vue. they used as a selling point the fact that the curch declined their rich offer.

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If they declined a rich offer, I wouldn't be surprised if the church is just waiting it out for another decade or two. I think it is reasonable for the Vue to say that, as long as they tell that story, but admit that eventually something will go there.

That land will keep solid appreciation for a long time, and the church expects to be there forever, so why not wait, especially if they don't need the cash for anything at the moment.

I do think it would be in the best interest of the church to sell it in pieces, maybe 1/4 at a time. They could maximize the money that way, and force much more density. The Vue is going on 1/4 of a block, so image in 15-20 years, they could fit 3 or 4 Vues there.

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......

I do think it would be in the best interest of the church to sell it in pieces, maybe 1/4 at a time. They could maximize the money that way, and force much more density. The Vue is going on 1/4 of a block, so image in 15-20 years, they could fit 3 or 4 Vues there.

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regarding this parking lot, One of the greatest ideas I remember from the charette for the 2010 plan was to connect 4th ward park across the tryon street hill to the (then proposed) 3rd ward park. It would have used the site which became 5th & Poplar, this lot surrounding the historic home that was then a B&B(now a facelift parlor). It could have gone on either side of carillon then had a pedestrian link to the third ward site.

The whole premise was you can have a "bigger park" experience if there is pedestrian connectivity. It didn't get support of course. Too bad.

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That does sound like a cool idea.

Charettes often have great ideas that never pan out due to money.

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Except of course, the Church depends upon that parking. Any plan to re-develop that property in the near future is going to have to have an accommodation for that. Remember the true purpose of most churches is not to make money but rather to spread the word of God.

It's my guess the Church is more interested in it's flock having good access to the Church rather than making high profits on land. Aside from Sunday services, this is a particularly busy church during the week as all kinds of meetings, events and programs take place there. The Church validates the parking ticket of anyone that comes into the Church for an event so it helps to bring people in.

The last thing I think they would consider would be to sell of that land and then see attendance drop off because people can't get to the church anymore. Given the historic architecture here I don't see them moving, so I think it is a very good guess there won't be any changes to this lot anytime soon.

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This is all true, but churches still experience financial pressure -- to fund their charitable programs, to maintain historic properties, etc. And other urban churches have decided to develop lots simply because they felt a responsibility to unlock the value and spend it on those charitable programs. So there is hope.

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I'd actually rather see this entire block stay in control of the church than to see their grove of old trees taken out for expansion. That grove just a block from the square is quite powerful. I noticed it my first time in Charlotte, and have every time I travel Trade.

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Don't know why the church won't work out a deal with someone like the church on North Tryon did, i e, sell land but have a guaranteed parking level.

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They don't pay taxes on the land, and it is held in trust by a church that making cash flow from the land and likes having the easy parking for its members.

At this point in the market, our wishing should probably be spent on the project already announced than hoping for other than to be developed right now :). Go Vue!

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They should be paying taxes if the majority of the time, the property is used to produce income. I'm not sure how this is resolved, but my feeling is they should pay taxes on 6/7th of the property value (minus whatever % of spaces are permanently reserved for church use)

Actually...from looking at the tax bills, it looks like they pay full appraised value (which will likely increase dramatically after revaluation). The combined tax bill for their multiple parcels is just over $50k. Another way of looking at that is $200 in taxes per weekday. Considering in the Polaris aerial view of the lot, I counted 275 cars (we'll assume that's average), and that lot is probably at least $5/day, the church is profiting almost $1,200/weekday on that lot, or over $250,000/year. Slap a loaded cap rate of 5% (very low risk) on it, and the lot is worth about $5M dollars to the church (assuming they'd still be able to have free parking in a future development). The lot is about 2.5 undeveveloped acres, so the land has value to the church at about $2M an acre.

All that said, I don't think its outside the realm of possibility to see this sold during the next development cycle. The church's taxes will go up, which will reduce the value of the land (unless they raise parking costs). A developer would easily be willing to pay more than $2M an acre (and the church would of course want a substantial profit margin) and still be able to dedicate sunday parking spaces.

Disclaimer: All this assumes parking at $5/day and that the Peace Building and spa don't have long-term lower cost leases on a certain number of spaces.

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Thanks for the correction atlrvr, that breaks an assumption I have had for a long time about all of the church owned parking blocks downtown. (For some churches that don't let their parking lots be used, I wonder if this is what stops them.)

Apparently, then, the answer is just that the church leaders are prepared to wait a long time in the status quo. It seems that if the Vue with their deep pockets and their highly dense landuse can't bring them to the table, then I suspect it will be a little while before they could be convinced to sell.

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I would add that Church is a meeting place for many non-profit organizations during the day, they also run a number of their own daily programs, I do believe there is also some kind of school or day school or something for kids, etc. All of the people involved or attending these functions do not pay to park in that lot. The church validates the parking ticket for anyone attending one of these events.

My guess is that because of this, their revenue from that parking lot on weekdays is a lot less than what an inventory of the cars in it would suggest. Without this free parking many of the meetings in the church would not be possible.

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I would add that Church is a meeting place for many non-profit organizations during the day, they also run a number of their own daily programs, I do believe there is also some kind of school or day school or something for kids, etc. All of the people involved or attending these functions do not pay to park in that lot. The church validates the parking ticket for anyone attending one of these events.

My guess is that because of this, their revenue from that parking lot on weekdays is a lot less than what an inventory of the cars in it would suggest. Without this free parking many of the meetings in the church would not be possible.

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No one is suggesting the church go away, or that they give up free parking for their members. We are saying they should follow the model that the Episcopals and the Methodists did uptown, where they sold the land, but retained the right to a either a number of spaces or free parking during church hours. (Maybe they can work it out so that you validate your ticket during communion?... sorry, bad joke.)

I suspect they have a formula for determining how much is taxable. I noticed that while it is not on this one, the land across from First Baptist is listed something like '60%'. I have no clue, but I wonder if that was the indicator for what is considered for profit vs not-for-profit.

It is probably being primarily held as an investment, and I'd probably agree that they are better off holding it for a while since they CAN.

But from the perspective of the urban fabric, it would be nice of all the block-large surface lots were to be developed in some fashion.

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No one is suggesting the church go away, or that they give up free parking for their members. We are saying they should follow the model that the Episcopals and the Methodists did uptown, where they sold the land, but retained the right to a either a number of spaces or free parking during church hours. (Maybe they can work it out so that you validate your ticket during communion?... sorry, bad joke.)

I suspect they have a formula for determining how much is taxable. I noticed that while it is not on this one, the land across from First Baptist is listed something like '60%'. I have no clue, but I wonder if that was the indicator for what is considered for profit vs not-for-profit.

It is probably being primarily held as an investment, and I'd probably agree that they are better off holding it for a while since they CAN.

But from the perspective of the urban fabric, it would be nice of all the block-large surface lots were to be developed in some fashion.

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