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Our City's Image in The Region.


Rizzo

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I should have been more specific to this topic. By region I mean the entire CMSA, the traditional areas thought to be West Michigan.

Dad you posted some very interesting stuff there, Thanks!

I think something should be done about the parking situation. Of course I keep saying what that "something" should be and some of you do to.

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Let me re-clarify my statement...

One of the people that I know that will not venture into downtown lives in one of the outer suburbs. He and his wife (both in their late 20’s) say that they do not feel safe walking from their car in the parking garages to the bars and what not. The only reason that they ever come into town is for events at VAA in which they will park in the deck next door and go to the BOB for dinner and then to VAA. They don’t feel comfortable walking out beyond that.

Part of their problem is how the Media intensifies reporting any time anything bad happens in downtown. Additionally, until you get into the core of downtown, (area around the exists other than Pearl street) some of the buildings don’t give a good impression.

They both grew up by Traverse City and went to MSU for school. They tell me that they feel safer in Chicago because it does have large visitor population in the downtown area, and there is a noticeable police and safety presents in the downtown core. More so, no one comes into downtown on a Sunday because everything seems to be closed.

It is all about the perception that people take, and much of it is understandable. All too often, (from what people have told me who live in other areas of GR and East GR that I am friends with), people say that they do not feel welcome in downtown. They see big vacant lots at major intersections, old warehouse buildings, graffiti, and dirty streets and sidewalks. They see garbage in and around bus shelters, homeless people asking for handouts or sleeping on the side streets, and interactions of questionable nature.

The first impression of a place is visual. There is no doubt that the core of Grand Rapids is amazing and getting better every day. But then you have the poorly lit, monotonous grey interior of parking garages where the stairwells smell like urine. The roads into downtown are not a fleet of welcoming signs either. Most people from outside of the community come into downtown on 131 or I-196. Look around those exits, what impression do you get? Part of it is because of the State and the condition of these interstates, but it is also the property owners around them and into downtown, the City Streets departments maintaining the streets and sidewalks, lack of street trees in many sections, and other elements that don’t say, Welcome to Grand Rapids, We are happy that you are here.

I agree that we need more stores in downtown, but remember that these store owners will also see these things that could detract people from coming into downtown.

I hate to say this, but it is one of the things that make the Life Style Centers so terrific. The company that owns the development and total control on the private streets and realizes how important the image is to the customers and potential residents. They make it as welcoming as possible, and in return the business will fall over themselves to get a prime location.

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More stores, period. Some people have stereotypes about crime, but I don't think that's nearly as prevalent here as in other much larger cities. People still perceive Grand Rapids as a small town. People go downtown Chicago for the shopping, but not Grand Rapids. We just don't have shopping downtown, and I think any new stores will have a hard time staying business without that critical mass of other stores to increase foot traffic.

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What would really help is an unified metropolitian area behind GR; developing a team mentality. Breaking down barriers and developing relationships between our city and the suburbs would seem to have an impact.

I believe our local pro sports may be the key to a unified region... just a hunch... Nothing like seeing NBC play Rampage's full game an not think positive of that city 20 miles down the road... :thumbsup: (Just an experience with some suburbanites to go on)

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I just don't see some of these statements made above. yes some people might be affraid of downtown, but they are probably also affraid of every other downtown they go to.

DT GR is really nice, I just don't see much trash, graffitti, crime, bums, crackheads, beggers, ect. ect. that were mentioned as scaring people away. I've worked there, I go to the bars there, my dad works there I've been DT at all times of the day all year and can tell you that I just don't possiby see how someone could feel unsafe there, unless they are just affraid of density and cities in general.

The root problem may be that 10 or 15 years ago this would have been a different story. There was far less to do DT, the appearance was hidious. Divion had so much trash and crackheads ect. I remember noticing a lot more trash in general around DT and buildings appearances were rundown. So maybe some old-timers might saty away if their stuck with the 1990 perception,

yes parking can be bad, you have to know where to go, the lots south of the arena are free at night so are all the meters as well as weekend besides monroe center. theres a street next to GVSU behind the admiral station that has no meters, GVSU is free in the summer.....so there are places, traffic usually is not that bad unless right araound 5pm or in a construction zone, or large event getting out. the main problem drawing people has to be lack of stores because the resons I know people to go there are work, eat, bars, and events and thats pretty much it

Face it there are some people who just don't LIKE dt and dense environments, my brothers one of them, and trust me he's not affraid of ANYpart of the city

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Not to point out the obvious...but we can post "I have this friend who thinks downtown is crime-ridden" but that makes no difference.

All you need to do is look at the scientific survey posted above to see what the issues are. Address them in order and you've solved downtown's "problem." Truth is, I think they're already working on those, but I read the #1 issue ("Nothing to do - 34%") as "Lack of shopping". We've got everything else reasoably covered (eating, drinking, art'ing, reading at the Library) but there's nothing to do outside, for normal people except shop.

Parking will take care of itself if there's enough of a reason to get people down here. Just ask "$20-a-day" downtown Chicago. :)

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^I think you quoted it wrong. I would assume he is saying that the mostly white suburban woman that would be teachers are not from the same realities of who they would be teaching.

If you simplify how to get there while lowering the cost to stay there I think you'd be on the right track. I think the point on simplifying how to get there isn't merely pointing them the right way or using vintage looking way finding signs, but getting them there without the cost of bringing their car.

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Again, please read the attached survey. The perceptions you mention are not held by the majority of Grand Rapids metro residents. Downtown is perceived as clean and safe, period. I think perhaps you have a negative impression of downtown for some reason. My guess is when people from Traverse City or Northern Michigan talk about "Chicago" feeling safer, they mean the areas around their hotel and Michigan Ave. That's not at all real Chicago. I've had extended stays in Chicago, and everything is closed on Sundays there too.

As far as bad things happening downtown, the only thing I can think of lately is a bunch of white guys who jumped an asian guy at the BOB. So stay away from large groups of obnoxious white guys apparently.

Sure the "gateways" into downtown could use some focal points, but what exactly is wrong with the arrival into downtown on Ottawa near Michigan? (the Trust Building is stunning) Or Pearl Street crossing the river near the Amway Grand? (new hotel going up, the museums, then you arrive at Monroe/Pearl and beautiful McKay Tower) Or coming down Fulton from Heritage Hill (beautiful view and buildings IMO). Division is about the only corridor that needs major work, and it is slowly getting there.

I'm absolutely perplexed by your feelings on this.

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List of improvements from the survey:

Better stores: 26%

Parking: 25%

Improve traffic flow: 12%

Cheaper parking: 10%

GRDad mentioned in an earlier post about the negative perception of parking. I too find it alarming that the list of improvements in the survey suggest that parking and car movement rate SO high. This parking thing is a red herring at best, and I do not think that it can be solved physically. The perception will need to change.

Traffic flow is better DT than 28th St, Rivertown or Alpine Ave.

DT parking is cheap, although not free and I guess that is what people want. Although I do NOT think that the lack of parking and the relative high price of parking keep people from downtown Chicago...maybe that is because the draw of the retail that is there off-sets the parking issue.

Afterall people still go out to 28th St, Rivertown and Alpine and fight absolute insane traffic, because of the draw of the retailers and fry-pits.

So I guess what that all means, is that the "better stores" is the only thing worth addressing at this point.

If someone were to ask me, I'd say as far as large scale retail downtown "build it and they will come". There is just no way to squeeze any kind of national retailers into the existing spaces. They're just not big enough, and won't do it stand-alone (you'll never see a GAP in the Ledyard Building). You have to build something new, IMO.
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The "East v. West" rivalry goes deeper than politics. I know too many Metro Detroiters who consider W.Michigan "the country," akin to rural Wisconsin--farmland and prairie grass. And while we know better, that's their perception.

We have fewer freeeways, fewer people, fewer events, less shopping and less sprawl than the D, so it's easy to understand why. For a Metro Detroiter, the question needs to be asked, "why would I drive to Grand Rapids? And even then, why would I go downtown?"

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I've never really noticed, but do any of retail outfits have a unified image? What about asking all the downtown business that package their goods in bags for customers to put a small logo of the city with a "Glad you visited! Downtown Grand Rapids." I think it would display appreciation and remind visitors that downtown is there.

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You're wrong, questions were asked about both safety/security and aesthetics. When asked to rate downtown for these different qualities, guess how they rated? (scale of 1 to 5):

"Safe and secure feeling" - 4.06/3.99 (intercepts/phone)

"Appearance of the area - well cared for" - 3.96/3.84

With "safe and secure" landing in the top 5 favorable things about downtown.

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In my humble opinion, one of the problems with Grand Rapids is people's fear of public transportation, not parking prices. Most locals would love to see Grand Rapids grow into a relatively powerful economic link between Chicago and Detroit. Unfortunately, as cities grow and property values go up, land owners must charge more for parking. Otherwise, it would be a poor economic decision for them to build a parking structure and not a building full of office/condo space. The way you deal with the high parking prices is public transportation. For the most part, the public transportation in Grand Rapids is used by people of lower income levels. In a city like Chicago, people of all economic classes utilize public transportation (busses and trains). I'm not saying we need an L-train...we're just not that big. On the other, the bussing system could use some improvement along with the support of a larger cross-section of the population.

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I don't think so...but my neighbor used to run a needle exchange program for addicts to exchange their used needles for new ones. I showed her my find, and she was certain that they were not just insulin needles. Also, I'm sure most diabetics have the know-how to dispose of them at the correct location. These were thrown over my fence from an alley.
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Sorry to veer off topic in my last post. As to the image of Grand Rapids, most of my friends and relatives who live in bigger cities, i.e. Chicago, New York, would kill to come back here. They have had to move in order not to be underemployed and to find work in their chosen fields. Grand Rapids has a great blend of art, culture and entertainment possibilities that did not exist here 20 years ago and it just keeps getting better. It is city living that still retains that small-town, midwest feel. The cost of housing is low compared to bigger cities, especially on the coasts, crime is relatively low. We have wonderful historic housing districts that have been preserved and are still being saved house by house, block by block every day.

I traveled the entire US, Mexico and Canada working for that crazy CyberNet guy before he blew his brains out. There is not truly a BAD side of Grand Rapids when compared to say Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, Mexico City, etc. One simply needs to use a little common sense when out and about.

On the negative side, I do get the feeling when talking to friends living in other cities that Grand Rapids tends to be viewed as somewhat backwater and "behind the times" in terms of tolerating differences in ethnicity, income levels, religion, sexual preferences, and people think that "good old boy" business deals are still the norm here.

I just hope the good impressions outweigh the bad and that the powers that be can get the word out about what a great town GR is.

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What makes you think the survey doesn't have a large enough sample to be scientifically accurate? How many people were polled? I seem to remember in my statistics class back in college that a very accurate sample of the entire US could be achieve with only 1,000 or so participants. I'm not expert, though a good friend of mine is and I could ask. He just got his masters degree from Western in stats.

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What makes you think the survey doesn't have a large enough sample to be scientifically accurate? How many people were polled? I seem to remember in my statistics class back in college that a very accurate sample of the entire US could be achieve with only 1,000 or so participants. I'm not expert, though a good friend of mine is and I could ask. He just got his masters degree from Western in stats.
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All the arguing about the survey circles a single statement: Is crime and the perception of danger a reason for people to avoid downtown or not?

It seems even the arguments put forth against the survey don't address why crime wasn't anywhere in the list of top reasons to avoid downtown.

Truth is, clearly, by any measure, that is not the main reason people don't go downtown. It might be a reason for some people (anecdotally it obviously is) but it's not the reason people avoid it in droves.

Incidentally, my empirical research jives well with the survey. Parking is the love of suburbanites who have been taught that free "close" parking is only to be found at Target, 300 yards from the front door.

Yesterday, I parked in the "Leo's Ramp" (I don't know the real name) downtown where you get 60 minutes of parking for free. I swear the walk from there, down the Monroe Center exit, across the street and into River City Books was less (or no worse) than if I'd visited Barnes and Noble and parked 100 cars from the entrance.

Added benefit: It was pouring rain and the only time I was outside was for a dash across Monroe Center. That's a one-lane road....50 feet wide maybe? The rest of the walk was inside the parking garage, down the hallway, and through the building to the bookstore.

My conclusion? Lack of parking is at least partly a problem of perception, not reality.

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As I said, the people don't do any research before-hand as to where parking is relative to their destination. People frequently downtown know where to park, but your average joe suburbanite isn't going to know they can park at the Leo's ramp, or that the ramp is even there, nor that it has 60 minutes free parking, nor that there's a hallways connecting it with Monroe Center. They know only where their destination is, and once reached, when they don't see any parking outside, they assume that none nearby is available.

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Grand Rapids has a lot to be thankful in terms of its DT really. They are fortunate that while many problem areas do exist in part of the city, most of these areas are not relatively close to downtown and are more concentrated in the areas closer to Wyoming and Kentwood on the south and southeast side.

Many cities don't have that luxury of having their ghettos a far distance from DT. Places like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, and Washington D.C. have them literally on their DT's door step. GR's is probably suffering a little from globalization in that respect which is why going DT still seems out of the question for many. They just don't know any better.

I found it funny the mentioning of the reaction of surbanites to "Division." Being a child of the GR suburbs I can tell you there is one thing that comes to mind when Division is mentioned and that is prostitutes. Its quite the running gag. I knew a lot of suburban HS kids who would drive down Division just for the fun of it because of that mystique.

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I found it funny the mentioning of the reaction of surbanites to "Division." Being a child of the GR suburbs I can tell you there is one thing that comes to mind when Division is mentioned and that is prostitutes. Its quite the running gag. I knew a lot of suburban HS kids who would drive down Division just for the fun of it because of that mystique.
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