Our City's Image in The Region.

[Mark Miller]

Grand Rapids, like every single other urban cnter in America, has its problems that are merely a result of being just that, an urban center. There are always going to be seedy people roaming the streets and areas of town that may seem unattractive to people, thats just the way it is. We need to understand that Grand Rapids is in a much better sictuation then any other city in Michigan (besides possibly Ann Arbor). We are a shining beacon of what other cities in our state, and all over the Midwest hope to become. We are light years ahead of where we were just 10 years ago and we continue to grow and better ourselves; most cities would kill for $2billion in new investment in their downtowns. We need to all be thankful for this amazing city that we live in and if certain people in the region can't see that then they are blinded by their own ignorance.

[GRDadof3]

While I think michaelskis is correct in some respects, I think it's mainly the parking "perception" problem too. I'm in downtown a lot, and I know how to circumnavigate the area to get a good parking spot. However, MOST people do not have the "spacial" gene (as my wife calls it). They have a hard time looking at a 3 dimensional world and picturing it on a 2 dimensional map, or especially vice versa.

Scenario: I'm Jane Suburbanite wanting to check out Monroe Center. I drive downtown and I arrive at Pearl and Monroe, and start driving up Monroe Center. I can park near the Ledyard Building, because I've heard about the new cool bookstore, but my one main destination is Little Bohemia, so I'll keep driving up Monroe Center to see if I can find a metered spot. No luck. I reach Division and now what do I do? I look left, wow, the Civic Theater looks nice and I see a parking lot that way, but it doesn't look very inviting. I look straight ahead and I see that beautiful reddish brick building that is still boarded up (I thought people said downtown was really looking good). I look right, and I see the dirty old JA Building. Hmmm. I've heard there is a Monroe Center ramp with free parking, but how do I get to it now? I know it's above Leo's (We had an anniversary dinner there), but where is Leo's again? I think I turn right and then right again. OK, here we go, turn right on Division, turn right on Fulton, go down Fulton, there's the arena wait, now I'm by the arena, now what? Oh wait, I remember Leo's is on Ottawa by the new art museum, and there's Ottawa. D**n, can't make a right on Ottawa. OK, I guess I'll turn back down Monroe to Monroe Center and start all over again.

And this scenario of someone with an above average knowledge of downtown (arena, Leo's, heard about free parking, had been to Little Bohemia before).

Why isn't there a big sign at Monroe Center and Ottawa saying "Covered Monroe Center Parking" with an arrow to the right? Or better yet, why isn't Ionia a two-way street from Monroe Center to Fulton? Why does the two-way stop at Fulton? Then people could make a right at Ionia from Monroe Center and bam! you're right there at the ramp entrance by Louis Benton's, or you could continue on down Ionia.

There's plenty of parking, but there is a legitimate perception of parking inconvenience, I think mainly because of lack of signage, IMO. Even in large cities, you can pick out the parking ramps because they have large SELF PARK signs sticking out over the sidewalks. The only one downtown GR that has that is the Ellis ramp between Pearl and Lyon (that I can think of).

[torgo]

I think Jeff raises a good point. People who do not frequent downtown find it intimidating. Driving around suburbia, there are huge signs for everything. If I am in Anytown, USA, I can drive to a shopping center, find a parking spot, and get inside the building without even thinking about it. However, if I drive into the downtown of a City I am not familiar with, I have no idea where anything is. I don't know where the streets go, which streets are one-way, and where the enterances to parking ramps are. There are all these big buildings and trees blocking my view down side streets. I can't putz along at 15 mph ad figure it out without five cars piling up behind me, which gets me even more flustered. With these five cars behind me, if I see a spot on the street I might not parallel park because then I make those five cars, whose occupants already hate me, wait even longer. I might try to drive around the block and try again, only to find that I can't because the next street is a one-way. There have been many times where I take some friends downtown and they are absolutely amazed at my "ability" to find stuff, parallel park, etc. To many suburbanites, DT is scary, not because of crazy murderers, but because they are unfamiliarity with it and its not what they are used to.

I don't think we need to bend over backwards trying to get your typical suburbanite to come downtown instead of Rivertown, because its a losing battle. Instead, we should be trying to attracting new residents to increase the number of "regulars" we have DT. And we are doing pretty well, so far. Don't get me wrong, getting suburbanites to come downtown would be good, but I think there are more effective and sustainable ways of increasing the livelihood of DT than convincing people to drive in from 30 minutes away.

[Mark Miller]

Scenario: I'm Jane Suburbanite wanting to check out Monroe Center. I drive downtown and I arrive at Pearl and Monroe, and start driving up Monroe Center. I can park near the Ledyard Building, because I've heard about the new cool bookstore, but my one main destination is Little Bohemia, so I'll keep driving up Monroe Center to see if I can find a metered spot. No luck. I reach Division and now what do I do? I look left, wow, the Civic Theater looks nice and I see a parking lot that way, but it doesn't look very inviting. I look straight ahead and I see that beautiful reddish brick building that is still boarded up (I thought people said downtown was really looking good). I look right, and I see the dirty old JA Building. Hmmm. I've heard there is a Monroe Center ramp with free parking, but how do I get to it now? I know it's above Leo's (We had an anniversary dinner there), but where is Leo's again? I think I turn right and then right again. OK, here we go, turn right on Division, turn right on Fulton, go down Fulton, there's the arena wait, now I'm by the arena, now what? Oh wait, I remember Leo's is on Ottawa by the new art museum, and there's Ottawa. D**n, can't make a right on Ottawa. OK, I guess I'll turn back down Monroe to Monroe Center and start all over again.

And this scenario of someone with an above average knowledge of downtown (arena, Leo's, heard about free parking, had been to Little Bohemia before).

Why isn't there a big sign at Monroe Center and Ottawa saying "Covered Monroe Center Parking" with an arrow to the right? Or better yet, why isn't Ionia a two-way street from Monroe Center to Fulton? Why does the two-way stop at Fulton? Then people could make a right at Ionia from Monroe Center and bam! you're right there at the ramp entrance by Louis Benton's, or you could continue on down Ionia.

There's plenty of parking, but there is a legitimate perception of parking inconvenience, I think mainly because of lack of signage, IMO. Even in large cities, you can pick out the parking ramps because they have large signs sticking out over the sidewalks. The only one downtown GR that has that is the Ellis ramp between Pearl and Lyon (that I can think of).

[torgo]

Your Jane Suburbanite example is only likely to happen once, the next time she comes DT (if she does, after seeing all the boarded up buildings) she will know her way around and not need any additional signage.

[GRDadof3]

Funny stuff.

If she knew any better she wouldn't be looking for parking on Monroe Center, but a couple blocks in any direction would probably do the trick.

Maybe Jane Suburbanite should do a little research on the internet before trying to navigate someplace that she is not familiar with. A little research will go a long long way. It is what I do before going to someplace that I am not familiar with, whether it is Three Rivers or Pasadena.

Your Jane Suburbanite example is only likely to happen once, the next time she comes DT (if she does, after seeing all the boarded up buildings) she will know her way around and not need any additional signage.

[Rizzo]

That's what I mean by having bags with the city's logo and a little text saying how appreciative downtown business is to your patronage. That goes in the same category as marketing downtown as a "destination."

[suydam]

Maybe Jane Suburbanite should do a little research on the internet before trying to navigate someplace that she is not familiar with. A little research will go a long long way. It is what I do before going to someplace that I am not familiar with, whether it is Three Rivers or Pasadena.

[Mark Miller]

The malls are for the people who are lazy and have that 11th grade reading level.

The rest of us can figure out how to navigate a city. I am definately not in favor of homogenizing, dumbing down or turning our city into Generica with a bunch of signage telling them exactly how to get from their garage to the front door of the business. I think the current wayfinding system is adequate for anyone using downtown.

As an additional service, maybe the DDA can print up some maps of downtown, showing all the parking, the one-way streets, the hallway from the ramp to Monroe Center and even key stores. I am not sure how to get these to Jane S., but we would have to start at her typical habitats - the mall, the soccer fields, the MVP sportplex, maybe mass mailings to Forest Hills, Jenison, Hudsonville, Cascade, Cannon Township, etc, etc.

In addition to this, we should include a pamphlet on how to live, shop and play in a real urban environment - title it something like "How to Use the City". That way she will know, in advance, that she will most likely not get a free parking spot for her Lincoln Navigator, within 10 feet of her destination.

Seriously though, downtown needs to be made into a real destination. In order for it to be a destination, it will also need an anchor as a draw, both for other smaller retail to come and for shoppers who are used to being spoon fed.

If it is a destination, it will not matter how hard it is to navigate for Jane S., she will just have to go there, because she heard it was the place to be and be seen, and she definately wants to be cool, since her suburban lifestyle has left her totally dependent on what other people think.

[Veloise]

That's what I mean by having bags with the city's logo and a little text saying how appreciative downtown business is to your patronage. That goes in the same category as marketing downtown as a "destination."

[Veloise]

While I think michaelskis is correct in some respects, I think it's mainly the parking "perception" problem too. I'm in downtown a lot, and I know how to circumnavigate the area to get a good parking spot. However, MOST people do not have the "spacial" gene (as my wife calls it). They have a hard time looking at a 3 dimensional world and picturing it on a 2 dimensional map, or especially vice versa.

...

[WOT]

The malls are for the people who are lazy and have that 11th grade reading level.

The rest of us can figure out how to navigate a city. I am definately not in favor of homogenizing, dumbing down or turning our city into Generica with a bunch of signage telling them exactly how to get from their garage to the front door of the business. I think the current wayfinding system is adequate for anyone using downtown.

As an additional service, maybe the DDA can print up some maps of downtown, showing all the parking, the one-way streets, the hallway from the ramp to Monroe Center and even key stores. I am not sure how to get these to Jane S., but we would have to start at her typical habitats - the mall, the soccer fields, the MVP sportplex, maybe mass mailings to Forest Hills, Jenison, Hudsonville, Cascade, Cannon Township, etc, etc.

In addition to this, we should include a pamphlet on how to live, shop and play in a real urban environment - title it something like "How to Use the City". That way she will know, in advance, that she will most likely not get a free parking spot for her Lincoln Navigator, within 10 feet of her destination.

Seriously though, downtown needs to be made into a real destination. In order for it to be a destination, it will also need an anchor as a draw, both for other smaller retail to come and for shoppers who are used to being spoon fed.

If it is a destination, it will not matter how hard it is to navigate for Jane S., she will just have to go there, because she heard it was the place to be and be seen, and she definately wants to be cool, since her suburban lifestyle has left her totally dependent on what other people think.

[Mark Miller]

Just a little bit of ANGST going on in there somewhere?

[GRDadof3]

Just brought this to the attention of TPTB.

[Allison Slater]

Hell when I was DJing this past Saturday downtown, there was a few times I cued up some dutch tracks (very long cooldowns often lasting a minute or more) so i could run outside, hop on the cell, and help people get to my party who were lost trying to find parking.

[torgo]

Also, there is a BIG new billboard on Plainfield/4 Mile with the DDA campaign on it. But it doesn't say "Keep it a Secret", it says something like "Because it won't be this way for long.......something something...

http://www.downtowngr.org/

[Veloise]

Thanks! Who is TPTB?

[GRDadof3]

You know who I mean! (The Powers That Be)

When I drive (as in four-wheeler) DT, I can't find anything nor my way around. Too used to cutting through the butterfly lot then leaving the bike in Sam's restaurant, taking other shortcuts too. And sheesh, I have free parking in every block.

It might be Detroit (yes, you read correctly!) where there are large P-in-a-circle signs with directional arrows.

[Veloise]

Oh right. Thanks for doing that. It would be great if they had signs at the end of Monroe Center too, directing people back to Fulton, right on Louis and then they would see the ramp on Ionia. Just thinking out loud, and I know it all costs money.

[GRDadof3]

This video documentary produced by a graduate of UofM's Urban Planning school provides some specific insights at to what creates a lively downtown, focusing on downtown Ann Arbor's success:

http://www.mlive.com/aanews/video/flash/in..._livelydowntown

(19 minute video)

Some specifics:

An accentuated core - Can people picture downtown in a clear way? Are there unique architectural landmarks that people can identify with? Is there a "center" that people identify with downtown Grand Rapids?

Having a seemless area where people can use the words "all those, lots of, a lot of" things to see and do.

People want visual cues that they are approaching a lively area, and where that area ends.

Places to see and be seen.

Different elements of Ann Arbor's "dead" areas.

With downtown Grand Rapids' retail areas being so segmented, is there a block long retail/restaurant corridor like Main Street in Ann Arbor? This MAP (2004) shows places where you can buy retail goods in downtown GR. It looks pretty segmented.

Looking at Monroe Center, walking East from Monroe toward Ottawa is not bad and very walkable and stimulating (except for the gap before the Ledyard Bldg). As you get to Riverbank Books and the Steketee Bldg, it suddenly stops. You then have Morton Party Store and Drink Lounge, then a bank. Finally you get to the Chinese restaurant and again you have a somewhat lively area, but with a gap where City Market used to be. As you reach Division, the vacant buildings are definitely a cue that your trip is over.

Cross the street. Police station, not much to look at. Then some interesting window displays at Minados, then the market, a sub shop or two, then the naked building on the corner. What's up with that? Continuing West, you have the Christian Science Reading Room (boring), a couple of vacant storefronts, Van Hoeck's Shoes (again boring), and a now empty space on the corner. You then pass the Art Museum, that in hindsight would have made a great spot for an ANCHOR retail complex that would have transformed the area. Die is cast, moving on.

After watching that video, I don't think Ann Arbor's student population is the only reason their downtown is successful. And I don't think it's out of reach for downtown GR to fill in these gaps and make a huge transformation. I really believe that if you build it, they will come. If not suburbanites en masse, I definitely think GVSU and GRCC students will venture to unique shops like those shown.

Agree, disagree?

(Sorry for the long posts)

[tamias6]

I think the video hits the tnail on the head. People attracting people is the most powerful way to get some energy into a city. That's why I love places like Chicago and would go back again and again. Its being amongst people that is the main attraction in being in a good and lively urban center. DT GR is well underway to setting the stage for getting people DT. With a little more work I could see DT GR as lively as Ann Arbor.

[Mark Miller]

GRDad-

OK, now I want to move back to Ann Arbor. Thanks for digging this up, I appreciate you finding stuff like this.

An accentuated core - Can people picture downtown in a clear way? Are there unique architectural landmarks that people can identify with? Is there a "center" that people identify with downtown Grand Rapids?

I feel like the accentuated core is Monroe Center and I think that the resulting analysis in your post is right on with this. It is not there yet. It lacks cohesiveness, especially in regard to retail. The Art Museum MAY prove detrimental to this experience - or it may help. Time will tell.

Some important physical requirements of the core would seem to be narrow parcels, continuous frontage, architectural detail, variety, lots of storefronts, wide sidewalks, and the private realm (seating and signage) spilling into the public realm.

Monroe Center seems to have some of this stuff, but not enough.

Interestingly Ann Arbor's downtown has thrived and competed with the suburban monsters of Briarwood Mall and its debris field. But it has not tried to compete directly - it offers a distinctly different option. It has not degraded itself with the same entourage of the suburbs. Likewise DT Grand Rapids does not have to lower its standards, it needs to provide something different.

I have always been a proponent of a big anchor retail piece, but Ann Arbor does not have one and it is very successful. What it does have, is much of its restaurants and shops mixed together in a concentrated few blocks along Main and this critical mass seems to work.

Grand Rapids is a bit more fragmented, but the bones are there for it to pull things together. This process is going to take a long time to come into being.

"After watching that video, I don't think Ann Arbor's student population is the only reason their downtown is successful. And I don't think it's out of reach for downtown GR to fill in these gaps and make a huge transformation. I really believe that if you build it, they will come. If not suburbanites en masse, I definitely think GVSU and GRCC students will venture to unique shops like those shown."

I agree with this. We do not need to rely solely on suburbanites, but they will come once they are told it is the cool place to be.

[GRDadof3]

Thanks GRTP, I'm just learning as I go. I have no formal education in any of this. Credit should go to jdkacz for originally posting the video in the A2 forum.

Here's some more ammunition on the retail front:

Ms. Dunn asked for feedback that has been received from conference attendees about

downtown Grand Rapids. Mr. Wilson explained that downtown rated very high in

cleanliness as well as safety standards. However, there has been negative feedback about

the lack of downtown retail. Mr. Mayhue asked about the major attraction of downtown

Grand Rapids, other than sit, eat and drink. Mr. Wilson answered that the major

attractions are the ability to easily walk around downtown and the number of hotels and

restaurants within walking distance.

DDA Minutes from October's meeting

I agree that we have a great starting point with Monroe Center/Monroe/Pearl being a beautiful and distinct "city center". From that spot, you can see right up Monroe Center, but also to different points around downtown. You can easily find it on a map, and you can easily determine which way is NSEW. Conversely, if dressed up and more lively, Monument Park at the far East end of Monroe Center is a perfect visual cue as to the end of Monroe Center. Gee, our city founders had this all figured out long before we did. We had to go and ruin it.

Perhaps the city is trying to "shoot too high" with capturing more retail downtown (Area 4/5, RiverGrand, etc.), which might act to actually fragment the retail potential along Monroe Center further. Maybe they should be aggressively partnering with the brokers who control the empty spaces along Monroe Center (Two Choppers, City Market, Kendall Bldg, Fox Building, Van Hoecks, one spot on the ground floor of Front Row Condos) and give targeted incentives to get them filled with with unique merchanidisers like those in East Hills, Holland or A2. Be pro-active instead of waiting for developers or brokers to approach them. They should also put some pressure on Morton Party Store to do something with that facade, and nix the iron gates.

Make it THE #1 PRIORITY. And as michaelskis suggested, also come up with some kind of tailored window coverings to at least give the empty spaces character until they can get filled.

Imagine the surprise and delight of convention goers to come around the corner onto Monroe Center and have a bustling retail corridor like Main Street in Ann Arbor.

Monroe Center certainly has the architectural flair and some very distinct buildings to leave a lasting impression in visitors' minds, if packaged and filled effectively.

Many of the elements are already there:

[mpchicago]

The foundation is already in place. Some may even argue that Monroe Center actually has a more attractive streetscape than Ann Arbor's Main Street. Monroe Center even has the snowmelt.

[TheCityGuy]

The malls are for the people who are lazy and have that 11th grade reading level.

If it is a destination, it will not matter how hard it is to navigate for Jane S., she will just have to go there, because she heard it was the place to be and be seen, and she definately wants to be cool, since her suburban lifestyle has left her totally dependent on what other people think.