What would it take to get Belk to Uptown Charlotte?

[dubone]

There are a lot of double decker big boxes with parking decks in the burbs

I know many who agree with you crispin. Target's recent emphasis on product design has allowed it to become even more popular for less costly fashion, and decor, and so on. As they have won in the market place, it does tend to be one of the places you can go for many items.

I suppose that that is the strategy that the developers have gone with. The big box retail world is all around 485, leaving a big gap in the middle. But the mall-type retail world is so close to downtown, it is maybe to risky to pursue that hard. So now we'll likely have the basic big boxes in a couple years downtown. But I'm hoping for an urban department store to act as an anchor and symbol for retail downtown. There is something like 1.5 or 2 million sf of retail, but it is a complete waste for most people because it is hidden in the bowells of the buildings. An anchor department store could open that retail back up.

[crispin]

There are a lot of double decker big boxes with parking decks in the burbs

I know many who agree with you crispin. Target's recent emphasis on product design has allowed it to become even more popular for less costly fashion, and decor, and so on. As they have won in the market place, it does tend to be one of the places you can go for many items.

I suppose that that is the strategy that the developers have gone with. The big box retail world is all around 485, leaving a big gap in the middle. But the mall-type retail world is so close to downtown, it is maybe to risky to pursue that hard. So now we'll likely have the basic big boxes in a couple years downtown. But I'm hoping for an urban department store to act as an anchor and symbol for retail downtown. There is something like 1.5 or 2 million sf of retail, but it is a complete waste for most people because it is hidden in the bowells of the buildings. An anchor department store could open that retail back up.

[crispin]

It also does well because it's located in the suburbs where most rich people live and it's fronted by an absolute sea of parking.

It's the Disney World version of a vibrant downtown, and I don't think that would be easy -- or desireable -- to replicate Uptown.

[mallguy]

Why doesn't somebody just call Belk and ask what it would take to get them uptown? Preferably somebody who works for a real estate developer and who could have a business reason to ask- in order to get a more legitimate answer.

[dubone]

A few years ago, a poster with ties to a Belk employee claimed that Belk could locate where the Epicenter project ended up going. Is that poster still around? Did those plans fizzle per permanent reasons? Was there anything to that rumor ever?

I would like a developer to find out what are the sticking points. I'm not wildly interested in a subsidy for them, but it would seem like the banks and the CCP could try to lobby for this, and work through details of a potential business deal if there is any hope for this to succeed.

Spectrum should really try to get the hooked into 300 S Tryon. That really would be the most amazing spot for them, with a Tryon address, between the campuses of the two banks, having a facade at the head of the new 3rd Ward Park being modeled after Bryant Park, which already has plans to be completely surrounded by high rise residential development. It would also be only 2 blocks from the convention center, 3 blocks from the Nascar museum, 2 blocks from the light rail, and so on.

But then again, I'm somewhat doubting they would have tried for it, and reworking the tower for the deliveries associated to a department store might be tough.

[dubone]

I would generally support of it, although the density would be a fraction of what land values could support intown. I think Pappas started out with Birkdale Village as the model for Midtown, but he had to go taller/denser (and get a STIF for parking deck assistance) to make the numbers work. I'm sure he is keeping the ground level designs fairly in keeping with Birkdale Village's design along "Metropolitan Avenue", although most of us are annoyed that he didn't even try to put retail on the ground levels of the parking decks facing King's Drive.

The tough part is that when you have higher density and vertical mixtures of uses, the ground floor has more requirements than they had to do at BV. That is because they need lobbies and elevators to make it the leasing work.

If Belk goes, just as an example, at 300 S Tryon, where there is also an underground parking deck, residential floors, and office floors, there will need to be ground floor dedication to the lobbies of all three, in addition to the entrances for Belk.

But if any project in town is going to apply the design elements of BV, it will by Pappas at Midtown, so I'd be very interested to see how that turns out at the street level.

[crispin]

I don't think anyone prefers a lack of streetlife. The question is how you foster streetlife. The Birkdale model depends on customers who drive there. I'd rather see Uptown develop retail for those who live here or can travel here by public transit.

Birkdale is problematic to me because it is an inherently limited space. There is Birkdale, and then there is a moat of parking. And without the parking there is no Birkdale. Urban development should not require the sacrifice of adjacent space.

I don't particularly see the difference between Birkdale and anything else in Suburbia. It does not connect with adjacent properties, except by car. It exists because of its proximity to a highway exit. It has no history, and not much diversity.

You can put my name down first on the list of forumers who wouldn't to see such a thing in downtown Charlotte.

[crispin]

Which issue? The absence of a department store?

[fulcrumsf]

I know this thread is about getting a Belk Uptown, but I was just curious if anyone on these boards has been to the temporary Tiffany & Company store at 221 South Trade Street? Does anybody know if or how well it is doing? It will only be there until Dec. 22nd. Do you think Charlotte could support a store Uptown like this?

[nowensone]

I have mixed feelings about Birkdale Village (yes, been there), it has nice street level, old town elements, people living in it, but is ultimately odd in that it has that fake Disneyland type feel, especially when you see the huge parking lots on the fringes and the open fields and burbs visible down the road. I don't see how DT could suffer from this aspect, so I have to agree having DT retail supplemented by travellers (mostly cars for the foreseeable future) is both necessary and OK. While speaking of retail, the mix needs to be significant, people need to have more than just clothers, hardware stores and restaurants/taverns.

[mallguy]

Walking through the nearly empty Founders Hall this afternoon, 3 days before Christmas, during what should be a busy period of the shopping season, and seeing the lonely workers at the gift-wrapping stand on the ground floor (there were NO customers at all), clearly uptown is NOT a retail destination much at all. Otherwise there would be a decent amount of people shopping and having their gifts wrapped.

Thus I don't see Belk building a destination-type store in the near future uptown. I'd think that uptown would have to have a decent amount of regular retail activity to pique the interest of the Belk real estate department and for the chain to gamble a large investment on uptown's retail success. Until then, if the Belk store is expanded, it would probably be just to provide more necessities (socks, a few ties, dress shirts, etc.).

[crispin]

Walking through the nearly empty Founders Hall this afternoon, 3 days before Christmas, during what should be a busy period of the shopping season, and seeing the lonely workers at the gift-wrapping stand on the ground floor (there were NO customers at all), clearly uptown is NOT a retail destination much at all. Otherwise there would be a decent amount of people shopping and having their gifts wrapped.

Thus I don't see Belk building a destination-type store in the near future uptown. I'd think that uptown would have to have a decent amount of regular retail activity to pique the interest of the Belk real estate department and for the chain to gamble a large investment on uptown's retail success. Until then, if the Belk store is expanded, it would probably be just to provide more necessities (socks, a few ties, dress shirts, etc.).

[DigitalSky]

so Birmingham, AL will have a downtown Belk store http://www.al.com/business/birminghamnews/....xml&coll=2