People Mover may get expanded to New Center

[Michigonian]

Extending any rail transit to the airport is far from pointless, in fact, it's a MUST. DTW is one of the only major airports in the country without rail transit into the city. Visitors (or even residents coming back into town) shouldn't have to rent cars or take taxis to get to downtown or back to the city.

So, I've got to reiterate that not only is a rail line to the airport not pointless, it's is probably one of the only sure bets for a popular rail line because it already has a built in base of users.

[dtown]

Whoa, guys i didnt mean that rail to DTW would be poitnless, but just that the DPM being extended would be. I think there should be regular light rail, like the Minneapolis Hiawatha Line, with larger cars than the PM. Then have it stop downtown, where you could transfer to the PM to get around downtown.

[Daytwahs Own]

Can some one explain how Detroit's density is a problem? I mean isn't Detroit more dense than St. Louis and it has a system of rails doesn't it?'

[Jasoncw]

I'm not a trainologist or anything, but my impression is that it doesn't matter. Well, not that it doesn't matter, but that other cities with a lower density have working mass transit systems.

How I see it, is there are two things. How many people are close to the stations (density), and how many of those people will use the stations (making useful routes and public opinion). There's a huge number of people around the stations in even "low" densities, and if they all used them, then ridership would be very high. On the other hand, if there's a huge amount of people by the stations, but a smaller percentage of them use it, there would still be high ridership.

You can increase the percentage of ridership by making the route go through places people want to go, by having easy to understand routes, having clean and safe feeling stations and trains, and other stuff.

You can make more people by the stations by putting the route through areas with a higher density (more people).

So that's my understanding of it, but like I said, I'm not a professional or anything. I read the same daily arguments about mass transit that everyone else does.

[RustTown]

Density has never been an issue with any of us, here. Nor is it a legitimate issue when talking urban mass transit. It's all about commutes, and employment-wise, Detroit is probably one of the most decentralized metro areas in the country (i.e. Detroit's daytime population is actually slightly less than its after 5 population), which presents some serious problems. But, I'm one that believe this could still work, as are most of us, here. The main problem, I see, at least, is that unlike other cities where you still have a central core which is still, by far, the uncontested office center and/or retail/entertainment center, meaning you have a built in commuter base, Central Detroit is largely irrelevant to most of the population. The other side of the problem is that where commuter nodes would work you'd have to attract choice riders. There are few built-in riders on these lines (i.e. people with no other option).

[jas49503]

Density has never been an issue with any of us, here. Nor is it a legitimate issue when talking urban mass transit. It's all about commutes, and employment-wise, Detroit is probably one of the most decentralized metro areas in the country (i.e. Detroit's daytime population is actually slightly less than its after 5 population), which presents some serious problems. But, I'm one that believe this could still work, as are most of us, here. The main problem, I see, at least, is that unlike other cities where you still have a central core which is still, by far, the uncontested office center and/or retail/entertainment center, meaning you have a built in commuter base, Central Detroit is largely irrelevant to most of the population. The other side of the problem is that where commuter nodes would work you'd have to attract choice riders. There are few built-in riders on these lines (i.e. people with no other option).

[Jasoncw]

The reason for using it is because the current people mover is underutilized, and an extension would use things that are already made (like the trains), bringing the costs down.

Light rail is prefered by some because it's cheaper to build, maintain, and expand, and because it fits into current urban planning ideas better.

I personally think mass transit would work if it was like a park and ride (is that what they're called, I don't remember), where someone drives to a parking lot/garage, and then uses the mass transit to pretty much go past the rush hour traffic. And also because parking would probably be cheaper farther away, and more convienient than parking downtown. Also, if the garage is in a location where there is (or at least perceived) car theft, that might be another insentive.

[RustTown]

I think where some get mixed up is that when talking city and metro mass transit, this isn't a choice between either/or. Light rail would only work along dense, short-distance corridors, which is why a line to and from the airport, a Woodward line, etc. would be good bets for light rail. Heavy rail, on the other hand, would work good for commuters lines between say Livingston County and Wayne and Oakland Counties. Actually, to the airport heavy rail could be an option, too. But the idea that only light rail will work, or only commuter rail will work just isn't the case. This is going to have to eventually be a mixed system if we ever get to that point.

[WALD0123]

A couple questions regarding the People Mover and various ideas I have personally considered for expansion.

1) Are the stations in the current People Mover loop long enough to accomodate longer trains than the current two car setup? Specifically, stations like Millender Center which are built into buildings and could be easily extended.

2) How does the gauge of the People Mover tracks compare to that of standard Amtrak and freight guage rail? For example, could the People Mover train feasibly run on existing rail lines, assuming the lines were retrofitted with the People Mover's electric and automation equipment? It seems like the People Mover tracks are closer together but it's hard to accurately compare the two.

[dtown]

Im pretty sure that the PM tracks are much smaller than Freight tracks

[wolverine]

I wonder if, the PM tracks could ever be replaced with a wider gauge that would allow for connectivity of another system. Or shall I say, can the existing superstructure of the PM accomodate wider gauge tracks?

I don't know about turns though (with adding extra cars) Theoretically, you could build the trains as long as you want, but every other car would have to be powered for it to succesfully round a corner (without stalling or flipping over)

[monsoon]

I've been reading about the history of the Detroit People Mover and from what I can tell, it was only designed to be a distribution system for several heavy rail subways and some commuter rail lines that were never built. Because of that it would seem that future expansions to the transit system should focus on building new LRT or CR that connect to this system (maybe by adjoining stations) rather than trying to extend this rather expensive technology.

[Zissou]

That was the original intent of the people mover. Right now it seems that the realization of that vision is a ways off. I like the idea of the expansion of it to New Center. With Midtown expanding and becoming a hotbed for development, along with the ambitious vision for Techtown I think expansion would help the entire area and still could eventually be connected to a larger system. It would be very cool to take the proposed AA to Detroit rail then hop on the PM which would essentially hit all over Detroits major attractions and venues. That kind of accessibility would allow the area to really expand and boom. If the technology is too expension they could switch it up for the Midtown loop and just make a transfer station somewhere.

[RustTown]

Again, I wonder where this argument has arisen that "the technology is too expensive to justify an expansion"? I say that because Vancouver's Sky Train uses the exact same technology, and runs a system with 33 stations at a length of 30.8 miles. In comparison, the DPM is only 13 stations at 2.9 miles. This system could most definitely be expanded to serve a larger area, and Vancouver is actually expanding it system, right now.

Vancouver Sky Train

Not only is the possibility of a minor DPM expansion realistic, but if the metro really wanted to pay for it, this could easily be made into a commuter system.

[rbdetsport]

And look at all the economic activity taking place there.

[monsoon]

Again, I wonder where this argument has arisen that "the technology is too expensive to justify an expansion"? I say that because Vancouver's Sky Train uses the exact same technology, and runs a system with 33 stations at a length of 30.8 miles. .....

[statedude3]

Actually only the original Skytrain line uses the linear induction motors. The remaining line and the ones under construction are using conventional motors and wheels on elevated track. The older technology was too expensive and they have abandoned the approach used on the Detroit people mover. Canada is also making heavy investments in Skytrain because of the the 2010 Olympics.

[monsoon]

Sure its possible but you are going to get a lot more transit by using conventional LRT or CR.

[rbdetsport]

Sure its possible but you are going to get a lot more transit by using conventional LRT or CR.

[statedude3]

Sport, so if I want to go from new center to JLA I would take 3 different lines/systems?

[RustTown]

Wouldn't it only be two? He didn't outline the loop that's already there.

Metro M.,

Thanks for the correction. However, I do have a question, and that is how much of the original Sky Train systems uses the DPM technology? And by that I mean how long is the original line?

[rbdetsport]

I apologize. I didn't outline the exisisting system.

[RustTown]

Nothing to apologize about, I think you may have just confused statedude. To get from JLA to New Center as judging by your plan, you'd simply have to hop on at JLA and switch stations at GCP to take you to New Center.

[statedude3]

Nothing to apologize about, I think you may have just confused statedude. To get from JLA to New Center as judging by your plan, you'd simply have to hop on at JLA and switch stations at GCP to take you to New Center.

[RustTown]

That was no slight to you, BTW. Sorry if it read that way.

All that aside, I think it's pretty clear why expanding the PM may be expensive, it's certainly and perfectly capable of being expanded. The only question is whether the private investors want to front the monetary costs, and whether they see a long-term benefit in which the costs of expanding the system are worth it in the long run? The fact is that very, very few mass transit systems turn a profit, so if that's the case, if we only think about this on paper, very, very few mass transit systems should even exists if we're judging it on turning a profit, alone.